"You can't say anything bad about women."

alphabetmod · 2014-08-10T16:30:16+00:00

"be proud you're a man, not a woman"

I think this perfectly illustrates one of the problems I have with it. The "not a woman" part is unnecessary. I do think young men aren't allowed to say anything bad about women in mainstream society. But more importantly they need better self esteem for themselves. You shouldn't have to put another down to bring yourself up.

fiat_lux_ · 2014-08-10T16:16:37+00:00

What would you say about women in public that you "can't" say today? Who is preventing you from saying these things and how?

Not the ONLY reason, but one of the big ones:

I mentioned this before, but I assume it's because men are taken more seriously as a threat.

Said by woman in anger and sadness: "Men are such stupid pieces of shit!"

Reaction:

"Aww. She was probably abused."
"Yeah, men can be pretty horrible."
"She was probably just dumped! She'll get over it."
(thought) "Meh, it's not like she'll be going around hurting men..."

Said by man in anger and sadness: "Women are such stupid pieces of shit!"

"Woah woah! Too far!"
"He sounds violent!"
"There's a real risk he will go around beating women."
"Women don't have a real defense against him! Literally helpless!"

It's true to an extent. The stats show as plainly as day that men tend to be more aggressive and violent than women. We're also bigger and much more capable physically. It makes sense that most people take "violent" and nasty words from us more seriously.

I still remember the girls who made resolutions to change. They worked out, lost weight, became more confident, etc. People around them were supportive or awed at best, and got jealous at worst.

When I made the decision to change and started gaining mass, the responses may have been hushed, but they were more dramatic and serious. Some people were worried. If I sounded remotely annoyed (even if I spoke normally, like, "Ok, that's enough"), people would back off and give me space. Some friends initially had trouble deciding whether to take jokes I made seriously, until they regained their comfort level. My parents stopped hitting or yelling at me, and instead approached me with logic/reasoning when trying to convince me to do something.

Physicality matters and it affects so much.

Time4Red · 2014-08-10T15:11:27+00:00

This a good question.

I feel like trp is too ambiguous whenever they mention society ... As in its always seems like a convenient boogeyman. Sorta like patriarchy for feminism.

AFormidableContender · 2014-08-10T16:29:14+00:00

But it seems like this then pushes RPers in the opposite direction, not towards seeing women as regular people but towards seeing them as less capable, and less decent than men, resulting in posts like "be proud you're a man, not a woman" with 100+ upvotes on TRP.

First of all, if anyone posted "Be proud you're a woman, and not a man!", women from here to timbuktoo would go nuts and squirt their girl-power jizz all over.

Second, the hate isn't from removing a pedestal...I don't know where you got that from...if it was from RP'ers, they didn't know what they were talking about. The removal of the pedestal is passive...

Dudes in RP hate on women because [in their opinion obviously] women are deserving of hate...it's really that simple.

Some guys also hate on women because they've been treated like garbage by women most of their life and it feels great to find a place where they can express those opinions without committing social suicide.

Denswend · 2014-08-10T15:38:14+00:00

Who is preventing you from saying these things and how?

In arguing for the need of feminism (the one by TheTerrorSquad) and some arguments that /u/mad_fi had, the issue of societal consensus on something, as well as societal mechanisms other than legal ones were given much more thought than I would do (over this, I'm not really flexible). I pointed out that feminism seemed odd since there wasn't actually any law against women working, owning private property, or even having education. In Anglo-Saxon countries (where feminism was birthed, and where it makes the most sense to be), women weren't even property of men (and marriage wasn't anti-women) as the modern history revisionism would have you believe. In a nutshell, there was legal protection for women in case of violent crimes (Vikings had a peculiar punishment for rape), there was no legal coercion into women marrying, there was really no barrier at women owning property (bar the economic conditions). This only expanded when women got the vote. Yet, "women's lib" came not in the 5th century, or the 15th century, but in 1950s where legal protection of women was at its peak.

The cause for this "liberation of women" is something that previous feminists argued - there was no encouragement for women to be independent, childbearing duties were encouraged, there were varieties of social mechanisms to keep it that way (not legal ones, which is important to more liberal folks) - ostracisation, withdrawing support, shaming unmarried women (shengnu in China, for a more modern grasp), etc.

I suspect that OP is the one which subscribes to this way of thought as I suspect they have feministic outlook, and this is something that despite being radfeministic, is now a crucial part of feminist thought - a woman should not be shamed for her choices and thoughts.

If you do subscribe to the theory of societal/cultural mechanisms being a crucial part in achieving equality by removing them, then you must acknowledge their existence and you must consider them a "threat" enough. Now, if you can flip the sides, and flip the genders, is it really that hard to imagine? That the state of a man today is much like the state of a woman in 50s-60s where women's lib was all the rage because it had the societal boogieman it needed to fight?

What would you say about women in public that you "can't" say today?

I've argued that before, got gold for that (that's kinda flattering, but if you spend money on that stuff you really shouldn't) and I'm going to paste it here :

"The problem is that Overton Window is so far in the feminist's court that any mention of intersex relationship without giving lip-service to how oppressed/awesome women are is considered misogyny. I can advise a female friend about not trusting a husband surrounded by hot promiscuous women daily with "he's a man", but I cannot advise a male friend about not trusting a wife surrounded by hot men daily with "she's a woman". Whenever I take an approach to understanding men, I must either include women to counterbalance if results are positive in favour of men ("men are more good in X but that's because cultural patriarchy/women are better in Y") or be negative in my results ("men are shitty in X"). Whenever I take an approach to understanding women, I must either include men to counterbalance if the result is negative ("women are worse in X but that's because cultural patriarchy/men are shitty in Y") or be positive in my results ("women are swell in Y")."

The TRP versus Cosmo thread is something like that, but it isn't just the Cosmo. If it were the Cosmo, then our issues would be solved. It permeates the culture, much like feminists think male oriented perspective permeated the known history. It's when First Lady says when she says that women are smarter than men and they can't complain about it. It's when a journalists writes about rape culture being overblown and gets fired. It's when you glorify a woman for being empowered by doing porn (think Belle Knox) but a man who doesn't want to date her is "slut shaming". It's when you allow divorce rape to happen in the first place. Examples are numerous.

TRP talks about women it's mostly to say something negative: hypergamous sluts, alpha fux beta bux, divorce rape and etc.

I can easily deny that. Hypergamy is one of the things that made humans dominant. It's the bomb. I wrote in favour of it, and I got made EC. Ironically, it's what PUA hinges upon completely. You artificially puff up your value by appearing assertive and dominant (perhaps it isn't assertiveness and dominance that attracts women, but the thing that enables assertiveness and dominance?) and full of options. Since TRP is concerned with sexual strategy, and it acknowledges that masculinity (assertiveness and confidence) is the positive identity that improves one's well being, and women are drawn to that due to hypergamy - why would they shit on it? You improve yourself, and delicious hypergamy delivers you women - win win scenario.

Divorce rape isn't really something negative about women, but about custody system in general. There's a reason we call it "divorce rape" and why it kinda scares men away from the prospect of marriage. We're terrified of it. Wouldn't you be?

AF/BB is also not really negative, but an example of how humans have conflicting, mutually exclusive, things that are attractive. Consider the Madonna/Whore complex (strange there isn't a scientific equivalent of this for women) within men that can easily be interpreted as "fuck sluts, buck virgins". A woman who spends most of her lifetime waiting like a nun for the guy of her dreams to stop fucking easy big tittied women will be a sad woman after all is done - he'll lose his money being divorce raped, he's going to go bald, perhaps a bit aggressive because of that and smack her a bit, etc. That's even not factoring the humiliation she indirectly receives (He went only after me because he stopped getting attention from the women he really liked*) which can cause severe problems. Sprinkle it with a divorce rape for extra humiliation.

But what TRP is overflowing with, is the negative examples of all of three.

Kokujinkun · 2014-08-11T17:21:07+00:00

Internet enables anonymity. TRP has so many guidelines towards restricting yourself and even revealing anything about yourself JUST IN talking on its reddit forum! Because of this you don't get a clear idea of exactly what a person is; their real name, their height, weight, age, skin color, etc. Sometimes, people just pour into topics without having to give any kind of real background on themselves. It's like anonymity on top of anonymity!

Everyone has some linkage to their mother or father. Most TRP are just guys unaware of what their feelings related to their mother do to how they view women. It's just that simple...really.

[deleted] · 2014-08-18T21:47:48+00:00

The more hardcore TRPers realize that women are better at some things (raising kids, family) than men. Men are better at other things (leading, managing a business, being assertive and ambitious, conquering). So when we say stuff like "be proud you are not a woman, but a man", we really mean that be proud that you have the natural ability to be assertive and lead and be ambitious. We are saying that men should be proud that they have the natural gift of testosterone, and to use that to conquer the world. Women have the natural gift of estrogen, they should use that in rearing kids and taking care of their men and families. We are saying they should be proud of utilizing their femininity in the right environment.

CallMeMrBadGuy · 2014-08-10T15:59:39+00:00

If you are only trying to remove the pedestal, why is the constant negativity necessary?

If one imagines someone as higher or better than them and have been heavily indoctrinated what other avenues can one take to remove those perceptions? That being said new members constantly arriving need to see it or end up venting themselves when they put it to the test, general reminders and warnings, and it's good for self.

What would you say about women in public that you "can't" say today? Who is preventing you from saying these things and how?

Let's just say it tends to be the groups in society that push for PC talk, half-hearted uncommitted platitudes, and the people that feel on the receiving end of a criticism or perceived negative.

masterrod · 2014-08-11T16:44:17+00:00

WEll think of RP as anti-feminism.. If you can't beat them join them?

Also, just think of RP as shop talk. When we talk about women in among women we talk about them in a way that would not be permissible in front women, if you want be well mannered.

For example, I might say, " my ladies pussy is so wet and juicy to my boys. But to my lady, I might say I enjoy making love to you.

We_Are_Legion · 2014-08-10T22:56:17+00:00

It's not about it being necessary. We don't say that all women have the instinct / programming for hypergamy on some level because it's a technique to help noobies to take women off the pedestal.

We say it because it's true. As a generality, women are attracted to higher status males, and this can be seen in any culture across the world. Hypergamous is not an insult or value judgment, but rather a sexual strategy that most women will choose (this can be argued, but I am telling you what RP believes).

Divorce? Why do we make a big deal of guys getting divorce raped and women initiating the divorces for selfish reasons? Not to help "smear" the name of women in the minds of nobodies and lurkers, but because its a real concern. We can argue about the rates and % chance of it happening, and so on, but the fact is, when you combine a shitty court system with the fact that marriage is a power loss for men, divorce is a bad option that happens enough for men to be holding off on marriage.

We don't say shit like "women are hypergamous" or "modern women want marriage for the wrong reasons" or "most attractive women have beta orbiters who they use for validation" because we want to just heap shit on them. We say it because we believe that taking these ugly realities into consideration is important when you enter the dating market and pursue whatever goal you're pursuing.

Ultimately, we can argue about numbers (only SOME women take advantage of the AFBB strategy, only some women excessively re-engineer events in their mind to fit their own narrative) and I can say its 59% and you can say its 17%. But who cares? Either way the % of women who are "like that" is high enough that guys should educate themselves and know what to do to avoid the pitfalls.

DevilishRogue · 2014-08-11T07:29:27+00:00

Your hypothesis is faulty. It isn't negative to identify women as hypergamous. Thinking this is negative reveals a fundamental misunderstanding of both women and TRP. Many people who post on TRP don't fully understand it and so do make the mistake that you've identified. But this needs to recognised for the mistake that it is. Men who blame women or look at them negatively for being hypergamous have failed to grasp that this is no more a negative than a predator hunting prey. It is neither positive nor negative, these are cultural constructs built around how men and women are. Understanding how men and women are means moving beyond the framework of these social constructs and accepting that this is simply how things are.

For a woman to be a slut means that she doesn't attach sufficient worth to commitment to her from a man. Slut is a simple descriptor that has negative societal connotations but for TRP purposes serves as a non-value judgement label for a woman who appears unable to get men to commit to her. This is a signifier of her low worth as a long-term partner (which is not the same as her being a low worth long-term partner - more of a red flag, as leopards do not change their spots).

Alpha fux beta bux, simply refers to women's dual mating strategies and isn't negative about women, more so about men who adopt the beta bux sexual strategy (although again there is nothing intrinsically wrong with men doing this as a species or as individuals, although as a gender it does make things harder for other men).

Divorce rape is merely another example of hypergamy. To expect women not to try and get the best deal for themselves and their offspring if a relationship breaks down is naive at best. And whilst not all women are unreasonable in divorce there is a sufficient inherent drive to obtain resources within women that this happens enough to be normal. Looking negatively at someone who behaves as nature intended is a pointless value judgement and serves no purpose.

All of the above said, there is something to the argument about pedestalisation that has been put to you by other Red Pillers, but that is by no means the whole picture. Most people slating women at TRP are either going through the Kubler Ross Five Stages of Grief or simply haven't understood TRP properly. However, there is nothing essentially negative toward women in the "Be proud you're a man, not a woman" narrative and were the sexes reversed on a magazine cover only a few radical men's rights activists would think twice about it.

EDIR: Ask a question and then downvote someone who answers that question honestly on a subreddit that doesn't allow downvoting? Says a lot about the people I'm debating with.

imaterriblelurker · 2014-08-10T18:14:48+00:00

Women are less capable, less decent than men. That's part of the harsh truth of TRP.

Title	"You can't say anything bad about women."
Author	cuittler
Upvotes	16
Comments	98
Date	August 10, 2014 2:49 PM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/2d5ecz/you_cant_say_anything_bad_about_women/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/you-cant-say-anything-bad-about-women.285127 https://theredarchive.com/post/285127

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