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It is OK for men to cry. Our hearts can, and are, broken by women too.

zogins

May 15, 2021
178 upvotes
/r/MensRights

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Post Information
Title It is OK for men to cry. Our hearts can, and are, broken by women too.
Author

zogins

Upvotes 178
Comments 76
Date May 15, 2021 5:17 PM UTC
(5 years ago)
Subreddit Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/nd3qw9/it_is_ok_for_men_to_cry_our_hearts_can_and_are/
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/it-is-ok-for-men-to-cry-our-hearts-can-and-are.828352
https://theredarchive.com/post/828352
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Comments

[–]theblackparade87C 43 points44 points45 points 5 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

Men can cry. That's not the problem. The problem is because no one gives a shit about us. We can cry and cry and cry but no one will still give a shit. Men should be able to cry but society still won't care.

[–]Hikingthrough28 10 points11 points12 points 5 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

My huskies care at least and my daughter does as well as friends and family. So thankfully I’m blessed to have a good support system, not all men are so fortunate.

[–]theblackparade87C 2 points3 points4 points 5 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

You have huskies??

[–]Hikingthrough28 2 points3 points4 points 5 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Two aged 11 my old man is named dash who I’ve had since 12 weeks old and Mila my 5 year old girl.

[–]theblackparade87C 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Poggers

[–]some_cultured_swine 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I love how this went from "mens mental health isn't taken seriously" to "you got huskies? poggers!".

[–]theblackparade87C 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Well, huskies are pog, are they not?

[–]some_cultured_swine 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Oh yeah, they the pog champs

[–]HeadHigh71 14 points15 points16 points 5 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

That's horrible, but it's being a hypocrite. I hate that you do everything in your power to stay loyal. Not looking at other girls, not flirting, going to strip clubs ECT. But then they go and do it and say I'm in Vegas with my aunt and we met some people but it was innocent. Then you call them out on it and somehow you're the bad guy. I call bs.

[–]DebSheep 9 points10 points11 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

That’s right! Gender equality is EQUAL, so everyone is treated as such. Or at least should be. Hopefully something becomes of something like this, because you know that if it was a guy who did that, it would be a divorce.

[–]ImpossibleAir4310 5 points6 points7 points 5 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Sounds like verbalizing equal boundaries would be helpful. I had to get into this in detail with my ex.

If it’s okay for you to flirt, is it okay for me to flirt? If you can accept a drink from a guy, does that mean I can buy one for a girl? Where is the line?

Basically I ended up with equal footing - the only hard boundary being passing phone numbers or changing location, so, I had to get used to my girlfriend flirting and accepting drinks. But I did it too, both in front of her and when i was alone, and that was eventually okay for us once the trust was there. It actually was kinda fun.

But I feel you on the double standard. You are what lotsa women claim they want, but then they try to play dumb when they break their own rules. I’d definitely be direct about it - if she starts acting like you’re out of line then she is out of line and you should just move on.

[–]HeadHigh71 2 points3 points4 points 5 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I'm glad that you were able to work things out and figure out where you stand. We did communicate our thoughts and we agreed on things. She planned a trip with her aunt in Vegas because she had a business meeting there. Ok no problem, I already knew she was going to hit the casino and have fun. Who wouldn't right? What got to me was that she went to a strip tease show, met up with some random guys but it was "innocent"

But that's the thing she told me I'm what she wants, I'm the sweetest guy in the world. So I told her that I didn't like that she was at a strip tease because I know if it was me there I wouldn't hear the end of it. And especially if I met up with some random girls and started drinking at 2 in the morning.

But what really got to me was that she told me that she doesn't drink and if she does it's just one beer. But in every picture or video she sent me or posted on social media she was drinking and dancing at a club. Soi called her out on it and guess what?

All of a sudden I'm manipulative and jealous and I'm mentally abusing her. I said whatever I'm out.

[–]ImpossibleAir4310 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Good for you. Sooo good for you. If you stayed with her I would’ve suggested taking her on a strip club date the two of you, just to play around and see the level of comfort and if she’s all talk...but it sounds like you’ve already figured that out.

Sometimes “you’re what I want,” means “I like the fact that I have power in this relationship.” For some women, feeling secure must include having the upper hand. Sounds like she liked herself with you (ie freedom to abuse the double standard) more than she was committed to you in the first place. You’ll see it coming sooner next time.

You sound like someone who is ready to commit, so you deserve someone that is also ready and available for that kind of relationship. For all of the women claiming that men have commitment issues, here’s one right here that wants to commit and yet is still under-appreciated.

Keep your head (and your standards) up - getting what you deserve is just a matter of persistence. Tell your next girl (not on the first date) about your ex’s behavior and how it was a deal-breaker for you. Displaying a little selectivity doesn’t hurt IMHE, and the earlier on you can be clear about what’s not going to work, the easier it is to maintain those boundaries. Uphill never works.

Cheers mate, glad you moved on. Best of luck!

[–]HeadHigh71 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Haha yeah but I'm not like that. If I wanted to see a naked girl I would see my gf not some random girl I gotta pay for.

Hmm yeah, that makes sense actually. I felt she was ready for commitment but I guess going to Vegas with her aunt made her realize she still wants to live and enjoy that lifestyle a bit longer.

Yeah I will definitely keep my head high and focus more on myself and you're right though I should be more selective. Thanks for the great advice. You're awesome.

[–]michaelscott1776 42 points43 points44 points 5 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

Not to mention his wife was having a relationship with one of his son's friends who was a minor when their relationship started

[–]Skinnyguy202 16 points17 points18 points 5 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Really? Did she get in trouble?

[–]michaelscott1776 26 points27 points28 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Don't think so.

[–]Skinnyguy202 23 points24 points25 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Of course she didn’t 😅

[–]hendrixski 5 points6 points7 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

was a minor when their relationship started

Did she get in trouble?

Haha, you're funny.

[–]MRRamming 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Why would she? That would require society to pull their heads out of their asses

[–]shamblam117 5 points6 points7 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

He was 22 when they first met, at least from what I remember. The real shitty thing is that people said Jada cheating was women empowerment.

[–]RockmanXX 13 points14 points15 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

He's not crying, some people want to see Men cry in public for some sick reason. But No, Will Smith did NOT Cry.

[–]dontpet 7 points8 points9 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

If it was right for him I hope he did.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Men cry in front of their buddies and their parents, but not in front of their women. That's how they lose respect unfortunately.

[–]zogins[S] 9 points10 points11 points 5 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Some of the comments here mention that 'love' is a different thing in the way it is experienced by men and women.

This is an area which fascinates me. I majored in Chemistry and Biology was my second subject.

We spent many but many weeks learning and studying about sexual selection. Sexual selection was first made popular by Charles Darwin himself. But I do not think that is the right sub for me to go off geeking about evolution.

[–]ArgueLater 8 points9 points10 points 5 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Then let's make one.

I think a solid "nature vs nurture" space would be amazing. People tend to lean one way or the other, but rarely does it get the nuanced inspection it deserves.

[–]ImpossibleAir4310 5 points6 points7 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Nature vs nurture is a phrase that always bugged me bc it’s a false dichotomy - you can’t escape your genes, and you can’t escape your environment when you are a child. It’s unavoidably both, and absolutely very nuanced in the details of how they interact, but no way around it - they with both have an impact.

[–]ArgueLater 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah, that's exactly what I think too.

Personally, I think they tend to work together.

Nature is consistent, to the degree it shows up in people it is predictable. It makes itself seem normal, so then it starts getting cultural decor. Then it becomes both working together.

[–]hudibrastic 4 points5 points6 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Please write one, it is a very interesting subject

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Can someone please explain to me why people keep waffling on about men crying instead of, I dunno, any one of the other forms of healthy emotional expression?

[–]Lupin_The_Fourth 3 points4 points5 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I cry all the time. Wake up and look at my son sleeping, cry. Remember when my son was a baby, cry. Thinking about how happy my son is, cry.

[–]Hikingthrough28 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

That’s beautiful I’m the same way with my daughter. You sound like a great father!

[–]ImpossibleAir4310 3 points4 points5 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Anyone interested in the origins of toxic masculinity should pay close attention to this post.

Mostly, men can do wtf they want. The problem is that men pay a social price for expressing those things publicly. This is a perfect example of a man being belittled and punished because he had the courage to express his feelings in public. (Rather than turn it into some kind of anger or stoicism.)

It’s really rather infantile when you think about it (“haha - willy’s crying”...) nowadays we call those kids bullies and we call them out to the principal. Usually they pick on the other kids because of trauma or some painful aspect of their lives they can’t control. So what’s society’s excuse?

I think it’s cultural too. While there is definitely a universality to it, I’m fairly certain that a man crying of a broken heart is looked at a bit differently in, say Italy, or France - better for example - where the complex history of chivalry and the idea of “pure” love as adulterous/forbidden love has infused itself into the cultural consciousness. (Marriage was for property and could not be squandered on feelings and the marriages of noble women were arranged long before any time for courtship. A noble marrying a commoner would be a scandal. This paradoxically leaves only adultery.) Bc of this history, love is long held as an ideal, something that elevates a man to a higher purpose and greater good, and therefore, a wounded heart can be associated with an honorable knight, a noble quest against all odds. This idea probably dates back to the 14th century, when America was not a thing. It’s also probably a lot harsher in some environments.

There are cultures with even more dire consequences for “unmanlyness.” EG Palestine, Armenia, Saudi Arabia (IME with people, I’ve never lived in those cultures). But we’re pretty bad here in America too IMHO.

[+]thenhk232 points 5 years ago [recovered] (18 children) | Copy Link

Its only men who are capable of loving a woman. Women cant love men, their definition of love is great companionship. There are a lot of men who went mentally sick/disabled because they loved someone. You wont find any woman with such case.

[–]ImpossibleAir4310 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Love drives everyone mad. And every human has capacity for love. Thankfully, despite the plethora in this thread, I don’t see a double standard there.

I think you might benefit from taking a look at the women in your life (past and preset) and reevaluating your norms. I grew up with really skewed ideas about women and relationships and I had to do the same. 15 years ago I thought men didn’t have the right to respect in relationships and were supposed to martyr themselves, committing unconditionally to women that are emotionally unavailable. Not a fun ride when you’re trapped on it.

“It’s only men who are capable of loving women,” is very black and white. Try to find the nuances in specific people - find the grey.

[–]DebSheep -1 points0 points1 point 5 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Two words. War Widows. You are some salty kid if you think women don’t love men, and aren’t significantly mentally and emotionally broken if they die. Now if it’s a divorce, feeling are complicated, and that’s a different argument entirely. But it’s equal. I’m sorry you never had a female role model who could show you this. My condolences.

[–]VectorRim 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Agreed. Women can love men.

[–]deathbrian098 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Really rare these days

[–]bubbubbubinthetub 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

This is blatantly wrong and actually quite sexist. Obviously both sides have bad eggs but you cannot suggest that women are incapable of love.

[–]AleniRSP -1 points0 points1 point 5 years ago* (11 children) | Copy Link

Women always love only socially successful people -> they love look, status and money. Men can love any kind of women both successful or not

[–]bubbubbubinthetub -1 points0 points1 point 5 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

Well that's just a blatant lie. You've made a sweeping over generalisation that all women are basically gold diggers there and that's just not true

[–]AleniRSP 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

It's true. Women are not attracted to non-masculine men, and masculinity is equal to high status and success. Maybe because the society is a gynocentric matriarchy

[–]bubbubbubinthetub 2 points3 points4 points 5 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

Masculinity is nothing to do with society. Women inherently prefer masculine men because in a natural setting it would be those types of men who would protect them. Naturally now that is far less important but the attraction has stood through. And there are women who like femboys, so this is a lie. You sound like you are making excuses for something - if women are not attracted to you that is not on them. Work on yourself and you will see results.

[–]Hikingthrough28 -1 points0 points1 point 5 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

What you say is partially true but come on now.... we all know what he’s talking about with hypergamy and dual mating strategy.

[–]bubbubbubinthetub 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

Dude, come on man. Yes, some women are promiscuous and some cannot be trusted in monogamous relationships, but this is the same for men too. A lot of men and a lot of women cheat and have a second partner unbeknownst to their other partner. This is not exclusive to women. Perhaps we see it a bit more because women often find it easier to date and realistically for a guy you have to be quite attractive to pull it off, but still. The other guy came at this with a very sexist approach that will not do mens rights any favours. Try not to moan about hypergamy either because for the majority of people this just isn't a thing and even if it is, it happens both ways.

[–]Hikingthrough28 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Lol dude hypergamy is a thing for 90% of women out there. I don’t hate women but I’m sick of them getting a pass on alpha fucks beta bucks. I’m a father and trust me when I say if her mother only raised her she would turn out to be just like her. My ex cheated on me then accused me of trying to kill my daughter. You’ll have to forgive me I’ve see. The levels of evil women can go to.

[–]bubbubbubinthetub 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

I can understand where you're coming from. Like man you suffered a real injustice at the hands of a witch. I've seen people in my life who have experienced that. But you have to understand surely that you have a very cynical view having come from the depths of dating hell. The majority of women I know are lovely, and literally just want the best for their partners. But I do understand, just don't let yourself let this grow into hate for women, because it's a very easy rabbit hole to fall down. And some men can be real monsters too, we all have the capability. Just keep your head up and stay strong man.

[–]Droidarc 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

True, even though most will disagree. When we use the word love, what men think and feel is very different than women's.

[+]ArgueLater -6 points-5 points-4 points 5 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

Fetishsizing Men Crying Posts

Look, it's totally okay to cry. And if you need to hear that to do it, please find a private space and let it out.

But the issue is not that men don't cry enough, it's what men want to cry about.

[–]apx_rbo 5 points6 points7 points 5 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

elaborate?

[–]novhaku 4 points5 points6 points 5 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

The basic idea is that whether men have the right to cry or not doesn't matter.

After all, the ones that are saying "MeN ShOuLd cRy aS WeLl !!!§" the most also tend to be the ones using a man exposing his weaknesses against him the most in the end. So it's nothing but empty words.

And men are often told to they MUST cry, otherwise they're indoctrinated by gender roles, which is wrong as well, a man should only cry if he really want it or need it. Forcing people who don't want to to expose themselves to do it just to "fiGhT aGaInSt GeNdEr RoLeS", otherwise it's toxic masculinity, is bad as well, some people like stoïcism and this isn't TM. That's what the "fetishsizing" part is about. It's too common for pseudo-progressive to say that men SHOULD cry. They shouldn't. They should be free to, though. But the idea of "man crying = good, man not wanting to cry and expose himself, bad, TM" is just as bad as the opposite and is sadly what you'll hear the most from people defending "men's right to cry"; if you're a private person that doesn't like big displays of emotions in public, you're indoctrinated. Somehow.

Anyway. The basic idea is that the "men should cry" thing doesn't matter. What really matters is people actively listening to the reason they are crying/want to cry (and if people did this, maybe there wouldn't be any need for the man to cry altogether in the end). And for people to have empathy towards them.

A man can perfectly cry and open up to others, if the only things "others" do as a response is using the fact that he opened up against him (e.g. using a man's depression against him to delegitimize him during an argument) then crying and opening up isn't good. If you only say that "men have the right to cry as well" without actually addressing this part of the problem, you're doing more bad than good. It all starts with the empathy. Celebrating the idea of crying by itself is stupid, no matter the gender; if a man has to cry, then he should, but it'd be smarter to put some care into avoiding what would cause him to shed said tears altogether.

Hence

But the issue is not that men don't cry enough, it's what men want to cry about.

What matters is listening to what they cry about. Not just the fact of crying by itself, which can be counter-productive if the outside world doesn't change as well. Countless men have been in relationships were "it was ok to cry and open up!!", just for it to be used against them down the line.

Men "having the right to cry" doesn't matter if others don't make the effort of sincerely listening. So in the end, it's not about men having the right to cry; "fixing" that wouldn't fix anything . It's about others having the duty of remembering that men are humans and should be listened to and taken seriously. Whether the man is crying or not.

[–]apx_rbo 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

That's deep. Didn't know I needed to hear this. Thank you

[–]DebSheep 2 points3 points4 points 5 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Allow me “Men are allowed to cry, just go do it in the corner over there, we have guests over.” The second part is so convoluted I couldn’t even make fun of it because it doesn’t make sense.

[–]apx_rbo 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Ah yes, and then we can't cry about normal things. I see

[–]ArgueLater 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm saying find a private space for their own benefit. It's very hard to tell who is trustworthy enough to cry in front of. It's often best to just have it to yourself.

[–]Bropil -1 points0 points1 point 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

So memes cant have crying people on them anymore? Thats what we are fighting against? Memers?

[–]purplelightofRED -5 points-4 points-3 points 5 years ago (21 children) | Copy Link

Nooooope! I disagree. Maintain your frame.

[–]DebSheep 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago* (10 children) | Copy Link

You seem okay, and you ideals in other comments are pretty good, so what in the ever loving name of - made you think that emotional men have to hold in emotions. Who is that benefiting? Come on -, stop shitposting on men’s rights.

[–]novhaku 5 points6 points7 points 5 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

Emotional men have to hold in emotions because the problem isn't them "not having the right to cry" because of "gender roles". It's actually people not listening. Look at feminists. They're the ones constantly parroting "men should cry as well" (to the point of labelling someone that doesn't want to as TM and indrocrinated). It doesn't stop them from using a man opening up against him.

Whether the man cry or not and how it is seen for a man to cry is honestly a detail. What must change is the others' ability to listen. Fixing that will fix the "crying" problem by default. Men "having the right to cry" wouldn't fix anything if people still don't give a single sh*t about what he's crying about in the first place.

Holding on emotions is usually benefiting the man, because crying and opening up WILL be used against you and will be seen as fair; that's why it's not a gender role problem, more often than not men "not opening up" is a survival mechanism more than anything else because even the ones supposedly against gender roles have no problem using a man's problems against him.

Which is why what needs to change isn't "men's right to cry"; again, this will be fixed by default if people actually start listening to what men are crying about in the first place. Making men "free to cry" without changing that fact that no one gives a damn about them ultimately wouldn't change anything; it's misplacing the problem.

Even if men crying was tolerated and seen as normal, as long as people don't care at all about the reasons they're crying in the first place and as long as they are seen as "fair targets" (using her depression against a woman = bad and manipulative, using his depression against a man = fair, others, particularly women, don't have to be your mommy and deal with your problems), it is even counter-productive.

So yeah. Holding on emotions is benefiting the emotional man. And this isn't fixed by giving men the "right to cry", but by giving others the "duty to listen". Otherwise, all you're doing is drawing an huge target on the man's back. The reason women can open up more is because it is seen as terrible to use what they open up about against them. Making men that cry "socially acceptable" because "muh fuck gender roles" without fixing this part would be a disaster for men and is akin to asking men to give a gun to someone that could shoot them with it at any moment.

Focusing on fixing the "crying man stigma "is extremely counter-productive if you don't fix the rest either at the same time or before it; it shouldn't be an end by itself. For many men, holding on emotions is a survival mechanism, not because of the "crying man's stigma" or gender roles, but because it's seen as fair to use a man opening up against him; since no one cares about them.

[–]DebSheep 2 points3 points4 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Damn, didn’t think about it like that. That’s smart, and I totally agree. I think it is being held against them, causing them to want to hold in emotions. Thanks for replying. You’re really smart.

[–]Jepekula 2 points3 points4 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Crying gets you hurt. Do you want to hurt yourself?

[–]DebSheep 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Damn. While it might now, that’s not the way it’s supposed to be.

[–]purplelightofRED 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Your opinion that I'm "shit posting" is yours. What I'm saying is that you lose a lot because you don't portarsy or display the strength that was built in you.

[–]DebSheep 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

It doesn’t sound like it. It sounds like you’re saying men need to be the strong ones always, and women have to be weak, dolls who do the cooking and such. You’re assigning stereotypes.

[–]purplelightofRED 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

You're adding issues. Even the innuendo is wrong. I believe in men being strong men. If you can't hold yourself up how do you hold up another? The rest is added spice that's not necessary for the current meal.

[–]DebSheep 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Nice analogy, I still disagree, I think men should be however they want to be, just be happy and be themselves. Agree to disagree.

[–]purplelightofRED 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

🤝 Agree to disagree

[–]ApprehensivePrice552 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Satire?

[–]ImpossibleAir4310 -1 points0 points1 point 5 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

Your comment is a case in point. Unless it’s completely ambiguous sarcasm that no one gets.

“Maintain your frame” is a new one for me, but it’s no different from “man up” or “suck it in” or any other such BS.

[–]novhaku 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

It's basically red piller lingo, so it's kind of surprising that you never heard about it. The basic meaning is supposed to be "stay in control of your mindset and stay in control of your interactions with the world", basically.

Not a bad advice per se, and it's a better one than "man up", but it's used so much and so many situation that it shouldn't be used in that it could be a meme.

Unlike "man up", which is sexist nonsense in any case, the idea of "maintaining frame" can have some value in some situations. It's just that it's used too much, even, or rather especially, in contexts it shouldn't be used in.

[–]ImpossibleAir4310 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Ah, I don’t do much deep diving in “red pill” culture so that’s the very first time I’ve heard that phrase. From you describe, it sounds like it’s essentially a less extreme way of saying, “don’t lose your shit”(?) But more vague and slogany. It is way more fun to say, I’ll give you that.

This is where it gets interesting - does having the freedom to express the full range of emotions mean that you will be a total mess? This is another false dichotomy.

Personally, and as a man, I agree with you that you have to be able to maintain and self-regulate to get through life. You can’t let out whatever you feel at any given time. But I wholeheartedly reject the idea that crying implies you are losing control. Same way anger doesn’t imply you have it. There’s nothing to be afraid of other than the social penalties, but yet there is a persistent internal fear that exists in many men.

I (now at 40+) choose where and with whom I share emotions, and I sometimes have a temper, but I think I am otherwise fairly level headed and respectful to those around me. I wasn’t always this way. If you do it regularly enough, expressing emotion is like brushing your teeth or any other self-care habit. It’s a part of how I stay in control.

Losing control is what happens when I stop expressing emotion in the ways I’ve learned. Then you can forget about the “frame” because the whole car will start careening off the road, to extend the metaphor.

Thanks for hipping the old cat to the lingo. ;)

[–]novhaku 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

I don't really know the RP community that much neither, since I heavily disagree with it, but after spending enough time on the what they call the "manosphere" you more or less know the different actors that are present in it.

"Don't lose your shit" as in "stay in control" in this context. In some situations, it is certainly a valuable skill one should have (and this applies to both men and women); the example I was specifically had in mind when I said that it can be useful is job interviews. Or maybe during a time of crisis. E.g. during an argument with your significant other, to avoid saying stupid things to him or her that you'll regret later, in one way or another. During these times staying in control of your social interactions and not "going with the flow" can definitely be useful.

I indeed have a problem when it's used in the context of crying alone. However, using it in the context of "don't cry AND throw a complete fit at your partner, insulting him or her, or completely submit to him or her etc"? That sounds more reasonable.

Being emotional is fine; being a slave to these emotions and doing stupid things because of them isn't, and it's in these situations that "staying in control" even if the other person tries to make you "lose your shit" can be an useful advice (but as always, too much of it can be abused by the other person. Sometimes, being the "bigger person" just lead to the other using it against you and make things worse).

Expressing emotions by itself is fine, as long as it doesn't mean doing stupid things that you'll regret later. That's the real problem. In which the RP community often uses it, expressing emotions is systematically associated with allowing yourself to, as an example, be a doormat (e.g. if your S.O. threatens to break up with you). That's the problem. Some people can be emotional without losing their mind and doing everything that goes through their mind at the moment. That's the part most uses of this "maintain your frame" rhetoric is lacking (well, to be fair in their mind it's a lot more simple, any display of emotion = unattractive and that's it, so there's that).

Losing control is what happens when I stop expressing emotion in the ways I’ve learned. Then you can forget about the “frame” because the whole car will start careening off the road, to extend the metaphor.

Basically, denying them too much just lead to you bottling them up and ultimately imploding in the most extreme possible way. That's the problem. I like this advice if you restrict it to "not exploding and losing control". Associating any display of emotion to a loss of control is a bit much and can be counter-productive depending of the person though. It's kind of sad, it's an advice that can be good that eventually got corrupted.

[–]ImpossibleAir4310 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I was trying to be respectful but all the “red pill” stuff just makes no sense to me. The entire movement seems to me like some kind of pseudo-religion for the disenfranchised. I can see how ppl get pulled in; it offers (false) hope and some version of a purpose. The language around it doesn’t concern me too much, bc it seems just another way of dressing up old ideas to obscure and (esp) conflate them. It all seems “deep,” but every time I pull the thread I’m instantly confronted with crazy sounding long-winded anecdotes. I know a bit of Scientology lingo, and it has plenty in common. (It’s funnier.)

As far as ‘splaining my feelin’s to me(last paragraph), I think by now I understand that that’s how it works (it was basically my previous point)

;)

But further, it also works that way for most humans. I think we are crossing the boundary from the “Manosphere” into the huManosphere. Everything above applies to women too. Women can’t just be emotional trainwrecks all the time. They can’t cry whenever they want - unless they live rather private lives. There are less social repercussions, and they are more likely to have support offered when seen being emotional, but simply put, they too have to function as adults.

I’m not disagreeing with you. But I think when you raise points that are arguably universally human, it can obscure the conversation. We don’t need to completely break down human behavior on here to have a productive discussion, nor do we need an analysis of everything it means to be a man. We just need a highlighting of the double standards and the differences of how real situations play out for a man vs a women. And possibly - hopefully - recourse.

In this case:

Women breaks up and posts it on media - gets outpouring of support and heart emojis.

Man breaks up and posts it in media - vid goes viral as he is universally roasted for it. He actually gets objectified as ppl laugh and get their kicks. I’m assuming (and hoping) Wil Smith has at least a few ppl in his life that were cool and actually supportive. And a few more to help him with the bad press.

[–]novhaku 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

That's pretty much what it is, in the end. And like all religions, it offers "easy answers" to complicated problems. A mainstay in religions.

Yes, hence my

"Don't lose your shit" as in "stay in control" in this context. In some situations, it is certainly a valuable skill one should have (and this applies to both men and women);

it applies to both genders in the end. My point was mainly that the idea shouldn't be to wholly throw it away, but that one should take the "good" part of it and throw away the rest (which is my personal logic with pretty much everything). The RP group mainly corrupted the idea by making it all about attraction, but there is some value to it. As opposed to the "man up" idea where there is pretty much nothing to save at all. Or at least I can't see anything worth salvaging.

Well... I did say, once again, that it's a good advice to hear, for both men and women; and I would honestly say that it's not as obvious as you think it is, particularly when it comes to the younger generations who tend to get carried away rather easily when it comes to their feelings (case in point, how easily a lot of them get "offended" nowadays).

I was mainly focusing on why I think this is different from the idea of "man up" rather than any double standard, hence the confusion, I suppose.

[–]purplelightofRED 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Which you should do. You can't be weak. It's not your nature and it never will be.

[–]Cindylynn43 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

It's a human emotional release. Crying should not be only for Women. Stuffing down emotions will only come out in other ways like anger, or overly risky behavior.

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