I am a feminist, and I always thought feminism fought for Men’s Rights as well.

Wisemanner · 2020-06-30T19:09:57+00:00

An enjoyable read. And a feminist I could cooperate with. But I fear your type of feminist is very rare. Nice to hear from you though. Keep in touch wit this reddit. Good luck!

duhhhh · 2020-06-30T19:14:31+00:00

The dictionary definition of feminism is great!

Feminists are hiding about half the victims of nonconsensual sex each year by categorizing nonconsensual envelopment as "other sexual violence" rather than rape. Feminists are hiding that over half the victims of domestic violence are men by focusing on "violence against women. Feminists are lobbying against defaulting to shared custody in divorce when the bills come up. Feminists are lobbying against gender neutral rape laws when they come up. Feminists are blaming "old white men" for the abortion restrictions in Alabama when the majority of pro-life voters, the legislator that sponsored the bill, and the governor that signed the bill that didn't have a vetoproof majority into law are women. Feminists are lobbying against an end to lifetime alimony except in cases of disability aquired during the marriage. Feminists are pushing for more scholarships for women in college when men are a minority of college students. Those sorts of things seem directly in opposition to the dictionary definition.

bufedad · 2020-06-30T19:08:54+00:00

I am a college student and I can’t walk around campus or by the streets close to campus without multiple female friends or a male friend with me because of how many reports I have seen of girls going missing/getting drugged

First off, this almost never happens. Second off, the majority of the missing are men.

That is just a personal example of something that affects me but my male friends all say they never worry about walking around alone.

Because even though they are at far greater risk of going missing, they are also better at risk assessment than you are.

For example, women are often trusted more when it comes to custody of a child.

This is actually a new development (look up the Tender years Doctrine). It was created by feminists, pushed by feminists, and maintained by feminist organizations like NOW (who have been fighting for years to prevent equal parenting rights).

short_dude5ft3in · 2020-06-30T19:19:26+00:00

Everything is determined by society. What’s happening now is determined by society. Agenda being pushed to say “toxic masculinity” is determined by society although a portion of it. It’s hypocrisy to say that tradition male role is social constructs and then “society” determines what should replace it.

Our society has lots of issues. All of the social unrest permeating in today’s daily life are just symptoms of our societies sickness. And we are miserably failing in diagnosing the real issue: lack of morality.

We go to the streets hold up signs, yell and scream at each other and claims “we are victims of (fill in the blank)” but we never once come together and actually trying to solve the issues. Politicizing then exacerbates the issue and widens the divide between groups and interests.

When it comes to equality that “feminists” claims, I believe they think sameness. There will never be sameness between genders. I believe true equality is nothing to do with sameness but rather it’s balanced. There are things men can do that women can’t. The inverse is also true.

There will always be a gender role. No if and buts about it. The question we should be asking is how are those gender roles supplements and compliments each other. Then, maybe then, we can actually see and experience true equality.

Hannubal · 2020-06-30T19:57:00+00:00

Thank you for this well thought out and polite post. If what you present here is feminism, then count me as an ally. I think society is constantly in the process of shedding of unnecessary norms. Things that worked before, or were necessary, can lose their utility with time. I don't agree that it's fine for men to be weak - I believe that society should demand that everyone be strong. But other than that, I'm on board with what you say.

I wish we could have more conversations like this between MRA's and Feminists. These two movements should be ways through which men and women communicate their issues to each other. They should not be ways through which we punish each other for what our ex-partners did to us.

2020-06-30T21:53:20+00:00

A lot of terms like 'feminist' have taken on new meaning. A lot of people considered themselves feminist ten years ago because they believed the movement to be the most basic of definitions: that men and women deserve equal treatment. As the movement became popularized a lot more of their agenda became common-knowledge and new more toxic ideas began to spring up within it.

As a general rule if someone says they hate feminist they mean the women who are hell bent on things like equal outcome, ending 'manspreading' and 'mansplaining' etc., just generic attacks that are meant to make men look like villains. Very few MRAs think that women don't deserve equal rights or opportunities, they just don't think that being forced to hire women in certain quotas is equal opportunity.

Then of course there is issues on nuance. Feminism is pretty pro-choice, but a lot of people who believe in equal rights still believe that abortion is wrong because it doesn't make women 'equal' to men to abort a fetus. Others are prochoice for women but think men should have a say in it to, or at least that they should have a choice in being a parent. Women can choose to abort the baby, but men can't choose to say, not pay child support. I'm pro life but if we are going to have that choice and a man doesn't want the baby how come he has no choice but the woman does?

So as you can see its not as simple as saying 'equality'. Most people want 'equality', but they have different ideas of what that is. you can disagree and think that you're the only logical person in the world so your way just happens to be right, but that isn't going to sway others, and so you have our current political climate. The internet has made us all so connected that for the first time ever we get to really debate these issues as a nation, everyone can have a say on the internet.

amey_wemy · 2020-07-01T01:30:48+00:00

Your definition of feminism is great and is what feminism should be. But not all people who claim to be feminists have such views. I know far too many who are just so deep into misandry that it just feels like a joke that they call themselves feminists.

Read through the intro to this subreddit, many would like to believe that Men’s Rights is just a different form of feminism. The dictionary definition form of it that is. (Similar to yours)

Most of the rants you see here is based on the frustrations they see in the world and they can barely do anything to change it due to how little the word cares about men’s rights. Or how much many feminist groups have strayed away from the inital definition of feminism.

When in reality, both groups should just be striving for equality.

The-Wizard-of-Oz- · 2020-07-01T04:39:00+00:00

The difference is that had the mirror image of this been posted in r/Feminism, the person who did so would receive an immediate permanent ban, not to mention incoherent verbal abuse.

Unmai_Vilambi · 2020-06-30T20:49:56+00:00

I had this old comment from Karen Straughan aka girlwriteswhat saved, seems relevant here (the hostile tone is from the original context, the information presented here is the point. Feminism does not fight for men's rights, doesn't care about them, actively undermines them.):

So what you're saying is that you, a commenter using a username on an internet forum are the true feminist, and the feminists actually responsible for changing the laws, writing the academic theory, teaching the courses, influencing the public policies, and the massive, well-funded feminist organizations with thousands and thousands of members all of whom call themselves feminists... they are not "real feminists".

That's not just "no true Scotsman". That's delusional self deception.

Listen, if you want to call yourself a feminist, I don't care. I've been investigating feminism for more than 9 years now, and people like you used to piss me off, because to my mind all you were doing was providing cover and ballast for the powerful political and academic feminists you claim are just jerks. And believe me, they ARE jerks. If you knew half of what I know about the things they've done under the banner of feminism, maybe you'd stop calling yourself one.

But I want you to know. You don't matter. You're not the director of the Feminist Majority Foundation and editor of Ms. Magazine, Katherine Spillar, who said of domestic violence: "Well, that's just a clean-up word for wife-beating," and went on to add that regarding male victims of dating violence, "we know it's not girls beating up boys, it's boys beating up girls."

You're not Jan Reimer, former mayor of Edmonton and long-time head of Alberta's Network of Women's Shelters, who just a few years ago refused to appear on a TV program discussing male victims of domestic violence, because for her to even show up and discuss it would lend legitimacy to the idea that they exist.

You're not Mary P Koss, who describes male victims of female rapists in her academic papers as being not rape victims because they were "ambivalent about their sexual desires" (if you don't know what that means, it's that they actually wanted it), and then went on to define them out of the definition of rape in the CDC's research because it's inappropriate to consider what happened to them rape.

You're not the National Organization for Women, and its associated legal foundations, who lobbied to replace the gender neutral federal Family Violence Prevention and Services Act of 1984 with the obscenely gendered Violence Against Women Act of 1994. The passing of that law cut male victims out of support services and legal assistance in more than 60 passages, just because they were male.

You're not the Florida chapter of the NOW, who successfully lobbied to have Governor Rick Scott veto not one, but two alimony reform bills in the last ten years, bills that had passed both houses with overwhelming bipartisan support, and were supported by more than 70% of the electorate.

You're not the feminist group in Maryland who convinced every female member of the House on both sides of the aisle to walk off the floor when a shared parenting bill came up for a vote, meaning the quorum could not be met and the bill died then and there.

You're not the feminists in Canada agitating to remove sexual assault from the normal criminal courts, into quasi-criminal courts of equity where the burden of proof would be lowered, the defendant could be compelled to testify, discovery would go both ways, and defendants would not be entitled to a public defender.

You're not Professor Elizabeth Sheehy, who wrote a book advocating that women not only have the right to murder their husbands without fear of prosecution if they make a claim of abuse, but that they have the moral responsibility to murder their husbands. You're not the feminist legal scholars and advocates who successfully changed rape laws such that a woman's history of making multiple false allegations of rape can be excluded from evidence at trial because it's "part of her sexual history."

You're not the feminists who splattered the media with the false claim that putting your penis in a passed-out woman's mouth is "not a crime" in Oklahoma, because the prosecutor was incompetent and charged the defendant under an inappropriate statute (forcible sodomy) and the higher court refused to expand the definition of that statute beyond its intended scope when there was already a perfectly good one (sexual battery) already there. You're not the idiot feminists lying to the public and potentially putting women in Oklahoma at risk by telling potential offenders there's a "legal" way to rape them.

And you're none of the hundreds or thousands of feminist scholars, writers, thinkers, researchers, teachers and philosophers who constructed and propagate the body of bunkum theories upon which all of these atrocities are based.

You're the true feminist. Some random person on the internet.

.

ArthurDent4ever · 2020-07-01T04:16:43+00:00

You provided a fantastic example of how feminism wants to “end gender norms” : child custody.

Originally child custody automatically went to the father in a divorce. This was certainly not fair but the reasoning for it was that he was solely responsible for the financial well being of the child. (He still is)

In the 19tg century a feminist by the name of Caroline Norton introduces the Tender Years Doctrine.Tender Years Doctrine and since then it’s been expanded to favor women in custody in most family court cases.

The National Organization for Women has been protecting these laws and presumptions in their activism for 40 years by lobbying against equal child custody in multiple states.

While you may believe in equality and breaking from gender norms the people who use that title and change legislation and court rulings do not.

Metraxis · 2020-07-01T06:24:57+00:00

A few things to know when reading here:

The term feminism is used here to describe the Dworkin/Daly/Koss/Solanas-inspired hate machine. The people who take their inspiration from these authors identify themselves as feminists, and are the most well-funded and well-connected (powerful) group of people who do so. Feminism is therefore, de facto, what these people do. You can expect arguments claiming that these are fringe elements or that feminism is about equality for everyone to fall on ears so jaded as to be deaf, both from repetition and from many community members' personal experiences.

It is generally viewed as unacceptable to make moral or value judgments about people based on genetic characteristics. When that genetic characteristic is sex, we call it sexism for short A judgment that relies on sex is sexist, the person who makes such judgments habitually is a sexist. These are abbreviated terms with specific meanings The claim that an act or person cannot be sexist because of some power relationship that exists between groups to which the people involved belong will not attract a ban, but will raise the question of whether the claimant is actually evil or merely stupid, since the behavior remains equally unacceptable regardless of vocabulary.

As long as a group or movement continues to take the idea of patriarchy as an axiom, there can be no useful dialog. The axiom changes a political ideology into a religion. Fighting a theoretical patriarchy when its existence cannot be questioned is like trying to end poverty when poverty is defined as the low quartile of the population by income. The definition itself makes a 'win' impossible.

Finally, for good or ill, the process and practice of masculinity is and always has been in large part defined by the way that heterosexual women react to heterosexual male behavior. If you want to know why, after half a century of 'fighting gender stereotypes', the modern man still won't open up emotionally, you need look no farther than the nearest "Male Tears" mug. If you want to know why so many men seem to be laser-focused on coitus to the exclusion of more ethereal relationship aspects, look at the derision and vitriol heaped on anyone who appears to be disinclined or unsuccessful. Men as a group, do these things because women, as a group, demand it of them, and all the pearl-clutching op-eds in the world will not change that. If the problem of toxic standards is to be solved in a lecture hall, then it needs to be a lecture hall full of girls.

mhandanna · 2020-07-01T08:33:13+00:00

Firstly, hi and welcome. You sound a little apologetic for having an opinion, don't be e.g. sorry if this has been talked about. sorry if I said anything offensive... you most certainly did not. An opinion is not offensive and we wll happily engage in discussion. Feminsits are very welcome here. Unlike certain reddits cough cough feminism, this is not an echo chamber and we will not delete your post, or ban you for having a slightly different opinion.... but remmeber down voting or disagreeing with you is not "hate". I feel some feminists avoid this space as they feel safer in a moderated bubble, which is essentially an echo chamber that even blocks other feminsits readily dor differing opinions (use archiving tools that show you the delted posts mods get rid of, menslib is the worst, sometimes deleting 80% of posts in a thread, all the top comments, entire threads etc).

Karen Straughan gives a great answer about some ways feminism has impacted mens issues eing raised or their creation.

"What really bugs me about your articles, Hoff Sommers books and the others who seem to think there is a "war against boys and men" is the us and them mentality that is reflexively taken."

Since the 1980s or earlier, men's advocates have attempted to address the issues either from within the rubric of the feminist movement or as a separate endeavor that did not attack feminism. Feminists who spoke up for men, like Warren Farrell, (who was twice elected to the board of the NY chapter of the National Organization for Women), found themselves essentially excommunicated from the feminist movement.

"Why don't you support your arguments with facts and them let them stand on their own?"

Erin Pizzey tried that. She opened the world's first domestic violence shelter, and discovered that women had an equal potential for abusing their partners. She did everything she could to spread awareness of it, and generate a public will to help male victims and a prospective on prevention and treatment that was more holistic.

She was picketed everywhere she went. By guess whom? Hint: starts with an "F". Had constant bomb and death threats, to the point where she had a police escort everywhere she went, and was eventually instructed to have her mail redirected to the bomb unit. I wonder who that was? Was subjected to a public smear campaign, and eventually saw her own shelter taken over by feminists, who immediately ousted and disavowed her. She was portrayed in the media and on picket lines by feminists as "condoning and supporting male violence".

Researchers like Murray Straus, Nicola Graham-Kevan and Susanne Steinmetz who dared to study female-perpetrated domestic violence and publish their findings were subjected to similar treatment.

"Why is there inevitably some evil villainous (largely unsubstantiated) feminist movement preventing your cause from getting off the ground?"

Erin Pizzey opened her shelter in 1971. Murray Straus published his first study on gender symmetry in domestic violence in 1979. Their insights have been replicated in hundreds of studies and meta analyses, the most ambitious of which (PASK) looked at 1700 separate studies and surveys.

In the movie The Red Pill, which was filmed in 2014, feminist academic Michael Kimmel and Feminist Majority Foundation Exec Director Katherine Spillar both emphatically deny the reality of female perpetrated domestic violence. Spillar goes so far as to say domestic violence is a euphemism for wife battering, and asserts that spousal and dating violence is "not girls that are beating up on boys, it's boys that are beating up on girls".

We're looking at 40-50 years of the research saying one thing, and prominent, powerful feminists still saying something completely different.

"The statistics are clear. Men hold the vast majority of powerful government, research and private sector power positions."

What does the demographic distribution of the 1% have to do with the reality on the ground for ordinary people? What makes you think that people in those positions are going to automatically vote with their genitals? Here's a hypothetical, tell me which you'd pick:

A panel of three people will permanently decide the issue of abortion--a women's issue, according to feminists. Who do you want on the panel?

Al Franken, Bill Clinton and Barack Obama? Or Sarah Palin, Ann Coulter and Michelle Bachmann? If you picked the former, good for you. You're a hypocrite. You just decided that you'd rather have three men than three women decide what women can and can't do with their bodies.

"So how is it the feminist movement that is victimizing your movement?"

The feminist movement has a history of blocking any attempt to raise awareness of men's issues. Right from the get-go.

"Wouldn't logic dictate it's other more powerful men preventing your movement from gaining ground?"

Wouldn't acknowledging that put to rest the idea that we live in a Patriarchy that privileges men and treats women like second class citizens? Oh wait. Men's activists have never been the ones saying that--it's feminists who say that.

"Why aren't you saying it's great the feminist movement has provided a template for success (well some success)?"

I don't say that because I think feminism has done nothing but divide men and women and foment resentment and hostility between the sexes. What are you suggesting here? That men's activists blame women, or "Matriarchy" (which is just another word for female power, really) for the problems of men and boys? Should we take a page from the feminist playbook and smear women as a group as borderline sociopaths who oppress their sons, fathers and brothers in order to empower and privilege themselves and women they don't even know?

"Are you suggesting only one gender at a time can bring attention to its struggles?"

I'd suggest to you that this has been feminism's position since the early days of the men's movement.

"Are feminists really saying there's only one pie and we want all the pieces?"

In my experience, yes.

"Grow up and stop trying to create a war that doesn't exist."

Go read the Declaration of Sentiments (1848) and tell me that was not a declaration of war against men. Read some actual feminist literature. Look at some things prominent feminists have said: "Man hating is an honorable and politically viable act. That the oppressed have a right to class-hatred against the class that is oppressing them."

Now compare that to your earlier suggestion that men in power do not privilege all men. You said it, not me. It's the fault of men in power, not feminists, that the men's movement can't get off the ground. Yet Robin Morgan, former editor of Ms. Magazine identifies and indicts men as a class in the systemic oppression of women, and she's not alone among feminists.

"Feminists know discrimination"

Feminists think they know everything.

"and no self-respecting person who stands for equality (i.e. a feminist) could logically argue it only applies to one gender."

Yet feminists routinely do. And they routinely paint people like me as arguing for the right of men to rape women, and other equally repulsive things.

"Make your case and feminists will supp

ort you."

Yes, feminists are always right and always righteous. Because vagina.

"If you stop finger pointing you will have much more success."

Really? Because for 40 years we didn't point fingers, and it's only in the last 10 or so that any progress has been made.

SamaelET · 2020-06-30T19:57:13+00:00

Let's begin with toxic masculinity. Would you like me to call what feminists call women's issue toxic feminity ? Women are shamed after a rape because of toxic feminity that states that a women must remain pure. Women are expected to do the housework because toxic feminity states that women m's value remain with the well being of their family. Women have body image issues because toxic feminity states that women should be beautiful. Do you feel how alienating it is ?

Edit: bad english, quite confusing sorry

novhaku · 2020-06-30T20:21:13+00:00

Gender role is a really convenient excuse. They exist for a reason. Thing is, this reason implies that women must police their own behaviour as well if it's problematic for other people, and that's something feminists absolutely won't accept. When one talks about "slut pride", who cares about whether the other side is bothered by seeing someone more than half-naked constantly? oh right, this person is then just a prude, because your rights and freedom > the rights and freedom of someone else not to be put in an uncomfortable situation, I forgot).

The same logic applies here. The biggest problem when it comes to men "having to be strong" isn't "gender roles"; some people will be extremely opinionated about thisand thus not compatible with you if you're ok with showing weakness, but it's the same with everything else.

The real problem and what forces men to "be manly and macho muh" is the fact that when they open up, it's 100% fair to use it against them PARTICULARLY for feminists. Not to mention to dismiss the problem but the "using it against them", sometimes without even noticing it because people are just THAT self-absorbed and don't even notice it, is the real problem. And that's something feminism doesn't give a damn about.

You can't expect men to "open up" and blame imaginary gender roles you're enforcing yourself, when you don't even double-check your own behaviour in daily life. The worst exes I've had were feminists (still active nowadays and worse than ever) that apparently thought that respect was an option and that their right to lie and slander me> my own rights, and when I complained about it and talked about how hurt I was, to the door, and by the way there go your reputation, having a backbone = controlling. That's the big problem. Feminism LOVES advocating for women's "freedom". Thing is, they're arguing about it with the word "freedom" being used as an absolute thing (which wouldn't ultimately be that different from anarchy, if we try to make a comparison to make the idea more understandable), not as "freedom" in a societal setting. So, no care is given about whether that's fair or not. Thus no care is given about one's own behaviour; having to restrain yourself is "oppression" (no, it's not, if you can't restrain yourself you're just unfit when it comes to living in a society full of different people).

"Gender roles" aren't the problem and the reason men don't open up. Men do what works. If showing weaknesses is used by others and is used as a manipulation and abuse tool, and it's done, more often than not, by women, if only because most people are straight and the one you live with is usually the one with the most dirt about you, then they won't do it. And feminists are just as bad, if not worst, than traditionalists about that. Because their "freedom" (or rather their ego) is more important than the fact of policing yourself; why would you need to police yourself? You're facting for your RIGHTS and your FREEDOM, you're on the "good side" of history after all!!! If you need to police yourself for these terrible people, then they have to be fascist. It'(s basically an huge ego-trip, and blaming it on gender roles doesn't work. Feminists are just as bad when it comes to taking advantage of a man opening up, they're just too blind to accept it without some level of special pleading being involved. So nope, it's not taken seriously. It's like a tiger saying you to open its cage's door so that you'll be free to sleep in it. As long as bad female behaviour isn't seen in the same way and punished in the same way as bad male behaviour, and this isn't something feminism is doing, particularly given how they're unable to accept their own flaws and always fall back on "the patriarchy" as the culprit for their own bad behaviour, you can't ask men to be more open. They're not "not doing it" because they're brainwashed by gender roles. They're "not doing it" because they're doing what works. And, let alone supporting them, because the so-called "people also fighting for men's rights" think nothing of using what will be said against the person if needed in their next victimhood crisis.

Nope. Feminism SAYS it wants to end this. But how often have you seen them taking the man's side in this kind of problem? It's always basically "yeah, we want to stop this BUUUT in this situation the man did this and THUS it's justified even if the woman was terrible". Actions matter, not words, saying that you want something doesn't mean much if afterward you find every single situation to be "an exception". That's a problem caused by victimhood mentality, by the way. This, and people not willing to accept giving up power. It's seriously screwed-up to think that feminism is "that pure angel that can do no wrong", power corrupts, and feminism is a mainstream power by now. The problem being that it's enforcing victimhood mentality at the same time, which nowadays is enough to pretty much right any wrong from the person.

I definitely don't agree. This is just the good old "it's gender roles!" all over against, which, like the "patriarchy", is a convenient "ghost" you can accuse of anything without it being tangible, which conveniently allow people to stop looking at themselves, first and foremost. The reason men don't open up isn't because of "gender roles". 1/ they may not feel like it and nobody should force them to, depending of how one works opening up doesn't always help, 2/ they're doing it as a REACTION against something, which isn't gender roles and the patriarchy. And this part is always conveniently skipped by the feminist side who always think that there is only one side that needs to improve itself, because they're pure and can do no wrong, and if they do it wasn't them or their own ideology, it was because of others. Yeah, big nope.

And that's not going into going directly AGAINST men's rights any time a woman's comfort is concerned, any time they use the idea of "systemic oppression" to completely twist the law and due process (hint: as long as it isn't judged, someone accused IS a just as much of a victim, so the "actual victim" doesn't deserve any more or less sympathy than the accused. If "believeallwomen is a thing, so is believeallaccusedmen. Just try to say this out loud though) or how they directly STOP anything MRA tries to do because "MRA are fascists" or whatever. And then there's the problem of domestic abuse. The gender pay gap that is actually taken seriously in its most ridiculous meaning (about 70%) by the government, and feminists definitely aren't going to say they're wrong, facts be damned. There's a lot to say about feminists and how they "are for men's rights".

Feminism, like pretty much any movement gaining too much strenght, pretty much became blind of its own flaws and bias. And how should this be surprising, as far as I know feminists are humans and rules are a societal construct, not an absolute one. The problem being that not only did it become blind to its own flaws, but it's also used to stop looking at oneself and its own duties, no, not everything can be the way one would want it to, that's called being human, and it's actually projecting its own flaws on pretty much everything else there is instead. I can't count the number of feminists confusing "being a strong woman" and "acting like the worst men there are" (who also get quite disliked when they act like jerks). Under the pretense of equality when as a man they would already have gotten a punch in the face, for good reasons. But victimhood allows it, and it's the fault of everyone else but them if they can't handle someone "strong and independent". Basically, ironically enough, feminism is looking for equality through a very selfish lense instead of a societal one; a lense focused on the "I" "I" have the right to" "I" this "I" that. And that can never work. No matter how justified it might be in one's current situation, because it always eventually goes out of control, and devolve into rules for thee, not for me. For a lot of "rights" that feminists defend, there are people which would find these "rights" bothersome and it's a legitimate question, not one that should be ignored because "these people are terrible" or whatever else

. I live in a country with free healthcare. Abortion is paid by the state here, and fine, nothing wrong with it. But if you even say once that there is a problem with it, not abortion itself, but with the fact there are people that therefore aren't "cautious" enough anymore when it comes to sex and they have had more abortions in a few years than some women in a lifetime (and this irresponsible behaviour is paid by the state. So, by the person saying this. Not to mention that the woman is stupid because aborting too many times is very bad for anyone, but whatever) there you go, you're a misogynist because you're arguing about this, even if you're not against free abortion in the first place but just talk about the ones abusing this "power". Yeah, nope. "Rights" shouldn't be "I'm free to do ANYTHING I want to" no matter the excuse, it should be "rights compatible with a stable societal setting" otherwise it's an open door to abuse and chaos. And it is right now.

Freedom=good, for both sexes. Rights = good, for both sexes. Responsibilities = a necessity, for both sexes, and that's where things are beginning to be screwed up by people looking for excuses in the name of "equality" and "good thinking". Absolute freedom in a setting that WILL cause these freedoms to be detrimental to others, but there is no reciprocity involved? This just doesn't work.

ShawshankRetention · 2020-06-30T20:22:41+00:00

If the bad guy knew they were the bad guy, the world would be really easy.

Napoleon armies thought they were bringing democracy, Crusaders wanted to protect pilgrims, islamists and communist pacify the world through unity and in most local conflict, protecting your own is more a factor than agression.

To mobilise people to their cause, every movement will have a seemingly innocent goal. To protect the land, to protect against a forgeing or domestic ennemy, preferably one who is despicable or threaten you.

Feminism is like that. It is not a nation and may not be an ideology, but it use the same formula used to mobilise people in war, seemingly for defense against horrid men and their patriarchy, but to attack an ennemy who hasent even realised that the war was launched.

Now, to keep the allegory, you seem to wonder if it is really necessary to push so far away from the border to protect your country, and you are right about it, but its not that eady to break from the threat narrative

I would suggest for you to take a break. To forget and deprogramm any feminist rhetoric. To read non feminists history books and realist fiction, perhaps some classical pieces with a great insight on human nature, and when you see the world, not as what is simply in front of you, or what is shown to you, but as a semi cahotic system of interaction between peoples and ideas, that you assess for yourself what is going on and how you would like to affect it on your level.

marchingrunjump · 2020-06-30T22:15:49+00:00

Sorry if this first argument seems bollocks. It works for me and I haven’t figured out a better way to think about it...

If you’ve ever studied differential equations, you would have realized that different sets of boundary conditions in exactly the same differential equation may trigger entirely different results.

Gender roles are somewhat culturally determined. However there are some biological unavoidable facts that works as boundary conditions.

The feminist role theory of gender entirely or predominantly see gender as a social construct. Men and women are pretty similar on the average so what’s the catch?

The possibilities are different most notable due to women’s abilities to bear children. A man has to bring something to the union of equal worth to the women’s ability to bear a child. So men fight and strive to be the highest ranking male and to be chosen.

Women otoh strive for being chosen by the highest ranking male by showing the best genes (being young fit and pretty).

I think the gender pay gap is really a reflection of what men must pay for women’s reproductive ability.

So just by this little, apparently insignificant, difference gendered patterns emerge.

If you browse by FDS, it soon becomes apparent that perpetuation of ‘toxic masculinity’ such as showing weakness is not perpetuated by men. The expectation of men filling the provider role is also extremely prevalent in FDS. Men has to shut up, put up and deliver. And so we do.

So I really have a problem with the patriarchy theory. May well be that men are filling many high powered positions in society. However to say that men decide everything because of that and that men are responsible for all bad things is infuriating, since it grossly disregards female power bases and responsibility for a just and equal society.

Women’s power may be more dispersed and less visible and less acknowledged but it’s not less influential. Add to that that women have a high in-group bias, women most often siding with women, men may end up having a rough time under female rule,

And here we are. Trying to figure out how to meet each other and create a good society for everyone.

I admire your willingness to step up and take responsibility for searching for truth. We may all be deranged but hopefully we’ll figure out where we are deluded along the way if we challenge ourselves.

user_miki · 2020-06-30T19:20:34+00:00

Actually gender roles were there for a reason ,they worked for millennia like forever,and I believe will still be around for more.Men put in place protection for women.Women and children first.Women in majority don't want the gender roles for men to disappear they want only the gender roles for women to change. They still want men to be providers and still want men to do the most dirty an dangerous jobs.Women want only the most payed ,clean jobs.

According with statistics a woman walking alone is less probable to be harmed than a man walking alone.When women were hurt that is more visible when a men pain is ignored.But men don't complain because we accept the risk and manage it.We are risk takers but not because of toxic masculinity .We understand that absolute safety is not always good and managed risk is better.We understand that without pushing our limits coming out of our comfort zone we cannot advance.

perplexedm · 2020-06-30T20:33:49+00:00

Toxic masculinity is bad because it is the fact gender roles say men don’t have a choice.

The only form of toxic masculinity is white knightism and associated issues.

rahsoft · 2020-06-30T21:44:31+00:00

I think there are struggles women go through in life that need to be fixed. I am a college student and I can’t walk around campus or by the streets close to campus without multiple female friends or a male friend with me because of how many reports I have seen of girls going missing/getting drugged. I am not saying only women go missing or get drugged, I know it happens to men too. That is just a personal example of something that affects me but my male friends all say they never worry about walking around alone. That is a small example of hopefully an issue we both agree with.

Respectfully I would say more men are taken ( but I don't have the source on me at the moment), so how about the idea that people are taken, people go missing. But the problem is the attention given to it. e.g. the number of indigenous people in Canada who go missing each year is an issue. You would think that by the way the government and the media talk about it that it was a female issue( but apparently it's not , more indigenous men than women go missing.), but then it doesn't make great headlines or vote winners. You see on the news..

Today there was a major fire, several women and children and other people were killed.

Not even the gender of the men is mentioned.

As I said elsewhere in your comments- go to police to get a perspective and see if you can get defence classes. As to your risk assessment I respectfully say that I am at more risk than you of being, attacked, kidnapped or whatever. I've been assaulted several times in my life by crazy people that I couldn't defend myself against ( including a very violent ex wife). When I go out anywhere I have to try to be very aware of my surroundings because I cannot tell if someone is behind me( I'm sensory disabled) and I have had people come up to me from behind and made me jump. I used to be very street aware and picking up signs of possible danger, but unfortunately I'm losing that with age and I tend to avoid situations where there is even the slightest risk.

I was taught that feminism is about ending the gender roles that hurt both genders, not punishing men. For example, to me toxic masculinity isn’t that men are bad, it’s that the gender norms determined by society say that men MUST be strong and dominate. I believe that it is perfectly fine for a man to be strong, but it is also fine for a man to be weak. Toxic masculinity is bad because it is the fact gender roles say men don’t have a choice.

Forget the issue of gender roles, because that is an excuse that how long been debunked. The only gender roles left are those designated by law( changing rooms assistants etc) and very traditional societies/villages etc in developing countries where those roles were necessary to get everyone to play a part in keeping the "tribe"/ family alive. Most of these however are gone. There is no such thing as toxic masculinity just as there is no such thing as toxic femininity. If you have a bad label on one side then you will have an equally bad label on the other side. We are a species that thrives on duality. the toxic label was created by the feminist to demonise men who disagree with them. we are a society today that has sporadically thrown up labels against people because we can't force to do what we want, sexist, racist, anti Semite, Islamophobic( I known idiots who have tried this on me without realising why it can't be used against me), transphobic etc. we've been burning down and looting cities over labels...

there is only bad, sh**ty, inappropriate, illegal behaviour etc

One of the biggest problems that is brought up on this subreddit that I have seen is the inequality in the justice system and with divorce. But that really confused me, because as a feminist I had already fought against those things because it is an issue with gender roles, not with women. For example, women are often trusted more when it comes to custody of a child. That’s because gender roles state women are the caretakers and the homemakers, which is something feminism wants to end. Men are just as capable as caring for a child as a female is, it is sexist to believe only women can care for a child. So I always believed we were fighting for the same issues.

Again gender roles claims is what is holding back fighting injustice. NOW the world biggest feminist organisation has been campaigning for NO shared parenting for many years, yet back in the 1990s they demand shared parenting because it was sexist to expect only mothers to do the caring. why does NOW do this? Because of money. Divorce has turned into a multi million grievance industry along with domestic violence. if every issue claimed was solved tomorrow do think they would pack up and go home? no they would have to find another cause in order to stop the funding tap being turned off. what do you think this bunch of deplorables( kidding ok) in this reddit would do tomorrow if every mens right issues was fixed? They would go home to their loved ones and get on with life and do the things they have been wanting to do.

By the way please explain to why feminists if feminists want to end sexism and gender roles then why do they side and endorse Islam??

Islam has gender roles, Sharia law does not even recognise fathers as carers of their own children, mothers get automatic custody and can only lose it if they are unislamic. so they can beat their children but so long as they don't deny prayer or Quranic lesson its ok. Ive learnt this the hard way..

I am not trying to fight anyone, I just honestly want to know if you see where I am coming from, if you agree, or if you knew this already before I even posted. I’m sorry if this has been talked about before, I am new to this. I agree with all of the struggles men face, I just was always taught feminism fights for mens rights as well.

Please tell me where in all of this were the feminists in domestic violence against men?

They have decided its a gendered issue when clearly it isn't. again it isn't, DV has turned into an industry for making money and votes out of the misery of others.. Go research Erin Prizzy who started the first women refuge in london in the 1970s. when she realised that men were being affected too and tried to start up a refuge for them,, guess who were attacking her? the feminists. they poisoned her dog. all her post had to go to the bomb squad because of the threats against her. In the end she was hounded out of the country...by feminists.

Domestic violence is one of the few things I can think of that does not care about the gender of the perpetrator or the victims only the feminist do that.I'm tired of living with the scars physical and mental from DV, I'm tired of being told I deserved it or that it never happened.

in summary feminism( whatever pure spirit you think it had) died a very very long time ago, if it was even worthy of such a thing..

go look up the cassie jay debacle and movie red pill ( see what happened to her over this), watch the movie if you can because i think you are in the same quandary as she was.. and i leave you to make up your own mind and wish you the best regardless of whatever path you take.

JestyerAverageJoe · 2020-07-01T03:34:36+00:00

Watch the documentary film The Red Pill by Cassie Jaye.

Wylanderuk · 2020-06-30T21:18:02+00:00

So basically you were or are a useful idiot for feminism?

For example, women are often trusted more when it comes to custody of a child. That’s because gender roles state women are the caretakers and the homemakers, which is something feminism wants to end.

No that's because it was fought for by feminists and is now defended by feminist orgs on the down low.

. I am a college student and I can’t walk around campus or by the streets close to campus without multiple female friends or a male friend with me because of how many reports I have seen of girls going missing/getting drugged. I am not saying only women go missing or get drugged, I know it happens to men too. That is just a personal example of something that affects me but my male friends all say they never worry about walking around alone. That is a small example of hopefully an issue we both agree with.

Your neurotic fears are frankly only indicative of your own issues, I doubt you fear say a false accusation of rape or sexual assault would you if extend the same levels of empathy you think is your due if one of your male friends rocked into a feminist circle?

And tell me just how many of your female friends actually (if any) have actually had that experience of going missing/randomly drugged (although through my personal experience its generally because they pre game and have no fucking idea what their actual alcohol capacity actually is) and no I don't want to hear any stories about "I was followed by someone that lives down the raod from me the creepy bastard!!!".

Oh aye and your sources are for a single UK charity, just how in the hell does that cover your probably USA ass?

marauderp · 2020-07-01T00:37:31+00:00

For example, women are often trusted more when it comes to custody of a child. That’s because gender roles state women are the caretakers and the homemakers, which is something feminism wants to end

No, feminists state that. Look up the Tender Years doctrine. You're railing against something that previous feminists fought for.

z770i1 · 2020-07-01T21:25:59+00:00

I hate circumcision, because it can kill boys.

I am a feminist, and I always thought feminism fought for Men’s Rights as well.

Comments

"PART 1: FEMINSIM OFTEN SHAMES MEN FOR EXPRESSING THEIR VIEWS

PART 2: FEMINISM ACTUALLY PROMOTES GENDER NORMS AND TRADITIONALISM

Title	I am a feminist, and I always thought feminism fought for Men’s Rights as well.
Author	camy9210
Upvotes	23
Comments	77
Date	June 30, 2020 6:56 PM UTC (6 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/hitnne/i_am_a_feminist_and_i_always_thought_feminism/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/i-am-a-feminist-and-i-always-thought-feminism.848672 https://theredarchive.com/post/848672