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Best initial "red pill" resource?

helpwanted911 · 2018-06-18T16:22:23+00:00

Any thoughts on the best (i.e., the most likely to be digested without someone shutting down) resource to refer a potential MRA to? My intuition is a video...

helpwanted911

June 18, 2018

54 upvotes

/r/MensRights

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Post Information

Title	Best initial "red pill" resource?
Author	helpwanted911
Upvotes	54
Comments	32
Date	June 18, 2018 4:22 PM UTC (8 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/8s0tbc/best_initial_red_pill_resource/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/best-initial-red-pill-resource.899366 https://theredarchive.com/post/899366

Comments

[–]PM_ME_UR_PC_SPECS 16 points17 points18 points 8 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link

[–]helpwanted911[S] 6 points7 points8 points 8 years ago* (14 children) | Copy Link

[–]notacrackheadofficer 3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]idolatryforbeginners 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

Can you help me understand this lecture? two things I didnt understand. One. Why does she refer to herself as a feminist and its her feminism that blinded her to the reality of male suppression. Male issues are seemingly equally if not mostly regulated by other men. Sexual abuse is largely seen by other men as simply lacking balls (there was a thread the other day where this comment was repeated told to the male by other males.), men in the military, workplace deaths, the draft, are institutions regulated by men, who have always regulated who can and can not do those jobs etc. etc.. So isnt this a non-gendered issue. As in, it is men harming other men, so why does she keep going on about feminists.

Second. Help me understand how this helps men exactly? Is it some sort of like victim complex pep talk? As in, yes, there are some serious issues surrounding topics she has brought up, but what exactly is the common person supposed to take away?

[–]helpwanted911[S] 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

I think that her point about feminism having blinded her to male oppression refers to ideological "blinders" she had unknowingly placed onto herself: the prospect of men having unique and legitimate areas of concern was simply not something she was even willing to openly listen to, let alone consider.

As to your second question, I view it as helping men primarily by casting light on people's preconceived notions about mens rights. By relating her own journey, she gives people in a similar situation a kind of of mirror from which they can reflect on how they would act in Cassie's shoes.

I think the crucial aspect of any "red pilling" resource is to allow people to reflect beliefs that they had simply never considered questioning. Once someone says to himself, "huh, I had never thought about it like that," they can more easily digest and analyze experiences and evidence that run counter to their extant opinions.

[–]idolatryforbeginners 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

I mean, feminists who are unsympathetic to the pain of other, at least to me are sort of like christian who believe in hate and revenge. ideologically confused. Frankly, not seeing that a suffering man is a problem just makes you an idiot, being a femininist? is just then her excuse for her own shallowness. Im really failing to see how feminism puts an ideological blinder.

Regarding "red pilling". The fact that the lens is focused on identity politics doesnt seem to make sense to me. As in (re: her speech), the men dying in war and being constricpted were men yes, but primarily poor men (did trump, bush, guiliani, clinton serve?), black men, etc.. The fact that men who once supported their families and can no longer because those jobs moved to china and mexico (negotiated by again, powerful men), is an economic issue not a gender issue. Or even if were talking about work injury, again men took those jobs away from women, women had those high injury manufacturing jobs too when men were at war, then they came home and said they wanted them back. So sure men have issues, but to not tie them back to much bigger social, economic, class, issues and repeatedly referring to feminism (on her part) seems at best disingenuous and at worse, I don't know shallow shock and awe propaganda.

Sorry, what are these preconceived notions of mens rights? She listed. False rape, suicide, injury, conscription, divorce settlments, custody, and a few others...

Thank you by the way, I appreciate your taking the time to help me understand.

[–]skepticalbob 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]helpwanted911[S] 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

I think the value in Cassie's talk is that it asks us to reflect on assumptions about the male experience that most people just take for granted (and thus perpetuate). It seems as though many men don't even consider the possibility that some of the burdens they face are unnecessary.

Male culture has traditionally placed high value on "sucking it up," and just accepting difficulties without seeking help (the apparent product of men's relative reproductive disposability/our crucial contribution to reproduction was to prioritize the provision of security and resources, i.e., putting the group's well-being above our own). So having men realize, "wait, you mean I don't have to be constrained my traditional gender role?" seems to be what Cassie is going for, in addition to targeting the cognitive dissonance of feminist adherents.

[–]skepticalbob 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

I'll be honest. If the vast majority of people here had her attitude, this sub would be a lot more useful. Some are certainly like that. But there is this dark underbelly (its not most) that does exactly what she said she was mistranslating in that list of legitimate grievances. In particular, rape statistics are frequently misrepresented by misinformed posters to conclude that men should live in fear of a false accusation because they are frequent and when they happen it ruins men's lives. And btw women don't even get raped all that much. I've had posters make the argument that women falsely accused of rape more than they are raped. Its disgusting.

I would agree that the Ted Talk is a good introduction to positive side of men's rights. But just as there is a dark side of feminism, there is a dark side men's rights. Its the nature of activism.

[–]helpwanted911[S] 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]skepticalbob 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]helpwanted9113 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

While I do believe that the feminist movement's decision to vilify men/masculinity and refuse to countenance the inclusion of men's issues in discussions about traditional gender role is a significant barrier to men's rights (and to overall improvement in gender relations), I certainly agree that MRA's adopting a similarly pig-headed outlook is nothing but counterproductive.

I recently came to this sub after because falsely accused of sexual assault; it was incredibly therapeutic to be able to express my anxiety and despair in a supportive environment. But I've also realized that indulging in mockery of feminism isn't constructive or healthy. It's a relief to be able to express frustrations here that we don't feel safe doing elsewhere in our lives, but it's also a slippery slope toward creating an echo chamber mirroring that which we oppose.

For me, the hardest part about being an MRA is the realization of how little change I, and the movement in general, can actually directly cause. The best thing we can do is educate ourselves without bias, respectfully inform people of our findings when appropriate, and refer open-minded people to "red pill" resources, such as Cassie's talk.

[–]skepticalbob2 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]helpwanted9111 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]helpwanted911[S] 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Your comparison with hypocritical Christians is spot-on, I think: just as some sects vilify certain other groups, and can't even imagine the possibility that they might be at least partially incorrect, modern feminist culture dismisses men's rights out of hand. Another analogy is how die-hard Communists vilify every aspect of capitalism.

As to second paragraph, I agree that the issues facing men are the product of broad social and historical trends. Cassie's focus, I think, is just to focus on how even acknowledging that men do, in fact, face unique issues is oftentimes quite contentious; she is trying to reveal feminism's cognitive dissonance about men.

And the preconceived notions of men's rights refers to her attitude before making the documentary; the list of men's issues you allude to represents her discoveries about men's rights after recognizing her bias.

No problem! This sort of discussion is exactly what men's rights needs :)

[–]nonothingnoitall -1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]Swiss_Cheese97971 points 8 years ago [recovered] (3 children) | Copy Link

Thought this EXACT thing today. I concur.

[–]helpwanted911[S] 5 points6 points7 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[+]Swiss_Cheese97971 points 8 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

AND the fact that she came to this as a feminist, AND that she's a woman in the first place, so it's hard to pin male bias and whatnot.

[–]helpwanted911[S] 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]eightgaydiamonds 5 points6 points7 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]UncensoredAltAcc1 points 8 years ago [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link

I think the documentary is excellent if they’re willing to sit down and watch it. The fact that it’s produced by a(n ex) feminist helps.

[–]biscuitgravy 3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]auMatech 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]turbulance4 3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]shadowfalcon76 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]turbulance4 3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]shadowfalcon76 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Philip8000 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]IronJohnMRA 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Razorbladekandyfan 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]notanerdlikeu 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link