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"For those who don't believe rape culture exists, psychology professor Ryan McKelley used a sports analogy. He said that merchandise celebrating the Green Bay Packers is evidence of a sports culture. Likewise, pornography and consumer goods that promote sexist messages are evidence of rape culture."

XTHROWYAWAYZ

September 24, 2016
31 upvotes
/r/MensRights
http://archive.is/e8FaW
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Title "For those who don't believe rape culture exists, psychology professor Ryan McKelley used a sports analogy. He said that merchandise celebrating the Green Bay Packers is evidence of a sports culture. Likewise, pornography and consumer goods that promote sexist messages are evidence of rape culture."
Author

XTHROWYAWAYZ

Upvotes 31
Comments 54
Date September 24, 2016 2:28 PM UTC
(9 years ago)
Subreddit Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/54ac10/for_those_who_dont_believe_rape_culture_exists/
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/for-those-who-dont-believe-rape-culture-exists.941044
https://theredarchive.com/post/941044
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Comments

[–]EricAllonde 26 points27 points28 points 9 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

Likewise, pornography and consumer goods that promote sexist messages are evidence of rape culture.

All the porn I've ever watched features women willingly, enthusiastically engaging in sex. The women are definitely not being raped, because porn offers a fantasy that's the opposite of that: attractive women who are unusually keen to have sex.

I think he's very much missed the mark here. Porn is evidence of consensual sex culture, not rape culture.

[–]oshmkufa2010 21 points22 points23 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Most porn I watch doesn't have any women in it at all. I'd love to hear from this feminist how it still promotes rape culture. Do I detect heterosexist and homophobic vibes in this statement you quoted or is it just me?

[–]chocoboat 7 points8 points9 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

"Women's choices that I don't agree with = rape. Sex is terrible and everyone should be afraid of it like I am"

[–]omegaphallic 7 points8 points9 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Even in porn that roleplays rape, no one is advocating you go out and actually rape someone, no more then action movies are mass murder culture.

[–]EricAllonde 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Good point.

[–]omegaphallic 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Thank You.

[–]fengpi 2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

He really knows his stuff about rape porn. He's surely watched thousands of hours of video and leafed-through giant stacks of pages of the stuff.

He's a thorough researcher, you see. He couldn't take many notes, though, because his hands were busy.

[+][deleted] 9 years ago* (5 children) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]TheDongerNeedsFood 4 points5 points6 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Sexual pizza culture

I like the cut of your gib sir...

[–]TheObelisk 2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Something something mansplaining, something something logic culture.

[–]Arby01 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

something something logic

yep.

[–]Phototoxin 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Logic was invented by Greek men = patriarchy!

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

parasite culture

[+][deleted] 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]robochicken11 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

No because rape = sex + power, and men have all the power through patriarchy /s

[–]McFeely_Smackup 6 points7 points8 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

teach-in about rape culture ... The teach-in was in part a reaction to a banner hung by a group of UW-L students... offering sexual acts to first-year students.

So offering consenting sex is "rape culture"?

These people are a living parody of themselves.

[–]d_hamilton 5 points6 points7 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

There is Star Wars merchandise, so that proves The Force exists

[–]andejoh 4 points5 points6 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Only if sex = rape. The logical fallacy is that people buy sports items consensually. Rape isn't consensual, but if consensyal sex is rape, then women should be just as guilty.

[–]SporkTornado 4 points5 points6 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I had to look up another news site to find out what the banner actually said.

Free cream pies with valid freshman I.D

http://www.jsonline.com/story/news/education/2016/09/07/lewd-banner-near-uw-la-crosse-goes-viral/89959802/

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Free cream pies with valid freshman I.D

But a cream pie has nothing to do with rape at all

[–]fengpi 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Cream pie == raep. Always has, always will.

The cake shop down the street with their delicious Boston Cream Pies on display? They are part of the problem!!11!! To wit!!

[–]dontpet 3 points4 points5 points 9 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

So much advertising that sexualizes women is focused on selling to women. Are both the viewer and the viewed conspiring to create this mythical rape culture?

[–]JebberJabber -1 points0 points1 point 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Culture is seldom a conspiracy.

Yes of course the viewer and the viewed are both involved, and neither are necessarily aware of all the effects of their choices and actions. Culture is often created unintentionally and unconsciously.

Culture relating to hetero sex will seldom be created by one gender alone. Your example is often designed, created and consumed by women alone, but there is also the final audience - the men who are attracted to this sexy stuff, and the other women who award it status partly based on its attractiveness to men (and partly because they like pretty things).

Ads which encourage viewing women as sex objects are a part of our sex culture, and part of that culture involves consent.

I don't like the term "rape culture". Since it upsets so many people here it might be better to translate it as "sexual consent culture" instead of claiming it means something different, that doesn't exist.

[–]MagicTampon 3 points4 points5 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Porn is evidence of sex culture.

It has nothing to do with rape.

What an idiot.

Following his logic, is birth control evidence of rape culture? Are condoms evidence of rape culture?

The only rape cultures I know if, are the cultures among rapists in prison, and the culture of feminists who constantly talk about rape.

Merchandise celebrating the Green Bay Packers -- it is evidence of sports culture, but is it evidence of crime culture? Of course not.

[–]diceblue 2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

The analogy breaks down immediately. Because it isn't indicative of a RAPE culture, just a SEX culture. Not the same thing.

[–]rg57 2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

And the History section of any bookstore is evidence of ... everything.

[–]iainmf 2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Feminist merchandise is evidence there is no patriarchy.

[–]fengpi 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

The vast number of alien invasion movies prove that aliens are real. Seriously, haven't you seen Independence Day and Independence Day: Resurgence? Those giant-saucer creatures don't fuck around.

I mean, War of the Worlds? That was far-fetched and might've been a one-off. The Day the Earth Stood Still? Sort of stretched the imagination and maybe it wouldn't make you wonder. But then, you had Earth vs. the Flying Saucers, Plan 9 From Outer Space, Forbidden Planet, Santa Claus Vs. the Martians... Jesus, there are simply too many of those movies coming-out every single summer for it to be a coincidence! And there are so many of them, too! Klingons, Hutts, the face-huggers that turn into chest-bursting Xenomorphs, those terrifying E.T. things with the glowing fingers that suddenly come back to life after you think they're dead, the head-bulging things in Close Encounters which make you sculpt model mountains out of mashed potatoes and make your family think you're going nuts...

And don't get me started on the giant monster menace that the Pacific Rim currently faces.

[–]Akesgeroth 2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Saying pornography is rape culture is like saying Packers merchandise is cheating at sports culture.

As in, it's fucking idiotic and contrived.

[–]Tallsmarthandsome 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Rape is legal in Green Bay? Wisconsin? What american states is rape legal? Are there Rape legalization campaigns to change the law like marijuana legalization campaigns? Does ESPN have rape stats nightly to cater to the rape culture fans?

[–]FezPaladin 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

So... pornography is rape?

This is literally one of the oldest lies in the feminist book.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

70 of the more than 2,000 respondents reported being raped. Only five of those reported the rape.

5 of the 70 people who reported their rapes reported their rapes? How do words'n shit work?

[–]JebberJabber -1 points0 points1 point 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

"Report" has two different contexts here. Reported to the authorities, and reported to the survey.

[–]Moonvie 2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

His point is completely logical if you go with the feminist definition of sex = rape. That only means heterosexual sex though, because women are wonderful they can't rape.

[–]JebberJabber -5 points-4 points-3 points 9 years ago* (9 children) | Copy Link

the feminist definition of sex = rape.

No it doesn't. Feminists are like other women, they generally love sex. That's why they get so upset about men who don't see a large, clear gap between sex and rape.

Please spare me your undigested quotes from Marilyn French and Andrea Dworkin.

Educate yourself - go and have non-rape sex with a feminist. It's fun. Just don't mess it up by talking about rape or feminism.

[–]fengpi 3 points4 points5 points 9 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

Please spare me your undigested quotes from Marilyn French and Andrea Dworkin.

Yeah, they had zero influence within feminism. They were Fake Feminists who nonetheless managed to trick everyone into thinking they were real feminists. In fact, there are millions upon millions of Fake Feminists out there, spoiling the image of an otherwise saintly and reasonable movement which Only Wants Equality† For Everybody‡ and you'd have to be an evil dittohead bastard to object to that.

† Some exceptions may apply.

‡ Some other exceptions may also apply.

[–]foot_kisser 2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

That's why they get so upset about men who don't see a large, clear gap between sex and rape.

Where are these alleged men that don't understand the difference between sex and rape?

[–]fengpi 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

It's, like, 98% of all men who have ever lived, isn't it? And that may be a low estimate! /s

[–]JebberJabber 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago* (5 children) | Copy Link

Put an hour per evening aside to help out on a suicide support forum for a while.

You will learn that people who see it as a game to push the boundary between sex and rape, or who are reckless about consent, are not all that uncommon.

You will see is that perps are not typically crazed psychopaths or nothing-to-lose desperadoes. Usually it is a boyfriend, friend, acquaintance, or a date. Nice, clean-living professional women typically get raped by nice, clean-living professional men.

You can argue whether they were technically breaking the law, and if they were, whether they would be prosecutable cases.
You can argue about whether to call it "rape".
You can argue about whether perps are one in fifty or one in twenty.

You can argue about the relative proportions of men and women both as perps and as victims, and about the relative severity of effects of their trauma on each sex.

Once you have seen a few dozen typical cases I think you would agree we have a widespread problem with sexual consent, and that far too many people are being severely and often permanently damaged by it.

The drinking culture varies between the English speaking countries and Europe. The driving culture differs between the US and India. Nobody is saying the existence of those cultures is an accusation against the great majority of society which participates in them, that those people are alcoholics or dangerous drivers.

The part of our culture of sex and gender relations that is involved in failures of consent gets called rape culture. That term plays well among feminists but I think it is a failure with the wider public.

I prefer translating it as "sexual consent culture", because that avoids it being taken as an accusation. We can agree we participate in a sexual consent culture, i.e. we both follow and create that culture as we live.

[–]fengpi 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

You will see is that perps are not typically crazed psychopaths or nothing-to-lose desperadoes. Usually it is a boyfriend, friend, acquaintance, or a date. Nice, clean-living professional women typically get raped by nice, clean-living professional men.

Indeed. Why, the very backbone of society is comprised of raeperists who raep and get-away with it while helping-out other raeperists do the same thing. Such is raep kulchir, is it not? An entire kulchir single-minded and assiduous in its devotion to raep!

Why, some people may even call the 3rd rock from our Sun The Planet of the Raeps.

[–]JebberJabber -1 points0 points1 point 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

You're still just making shit up. I've suggested where you can get actual information.

[–]fengpi 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Haven't seen any links from you. Would a Google search for "raep kulchir"+"non-ludicrous idea" suffice?

[–]foot_kisser 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

You can argue whether they were technically breaking the law, and if they were, whether they would be prosecutable cases. You can argue about whether to call it "rape".

The only thing I know of that's rape, but not technically rape, is the "made to penetrate" stuff. But that's an MRA issue, not a feminist issue.

And really, if it's something so far removed from rape that even a feminist isn't comfortable saying it's rape, it's not rape.

I prefer translating it as "sexual consent culture", because that avoids it being taken as an accusation.

I think that is a better wording for it. But what is the problem? There's an obvious problem with a "rape culture", since any culture which considers rape acceptable is clearly wrong. But having a sexual consent culture just means that we have a culture around what is considered to be normal for getting sexual consent.

[–]fengpi 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago* (6 children) | Copy Link

I don't understand something about raep kulchir...

If society accepts raep as normal (or, at the very least, does not consider it a serious crime) and treats the raeperists with undue sensitivity, why do the reaperists always try to keep their raeps a secret? I mean, they know they won't be punished, right? It raep was a banality which no one cared about, you'd think that raeperists wouldn't really have to deny their raeps so hard because denying a banality is no big deal. Right? The law, the police, the judges, the college administrators, the entertainment industry and the whole of society is already on the side of the raeperists, so why would the raeperist want or even need to deny anything?

[–]JebberJabber -5 points-4 points-3 points 9 years ago* (5 children) | Copy Link

The popularity of that sort of bullshit strawman among MRAs is one reason why feminists and most normal people switch off when a MRA starts talking. It just isn't worth expending energy on someone who tries to avoid an uncomfortable topic by redefining it out of existence.

[–]fengpi 2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link

I have yet to have someone explain raep kulchir to me in a way that sounded halfway plausible.

If raeperists know they probably won't be punished even in the slim chance that the police (who also favor raeperists) manage to apprehend them-- and that's a claim I have seen many a feminist make many a time-- why bother keeping the raeps secret? Raeperists don't really get punished and the whole system favors them, from pop-song lyrics ("Blurred Lines," "Baby it's Cold Outside," etc) to the college administrators who cover-up the campus raep stats to everybody's instinctive hatred of the victims. Such is raep kulchir, is it not?

[–]JebberJabber -2 points-1 points0 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

No.
Your education in feminism seems to have come from from TiA and horror stories circulated on MRA sites. You can't learn about things by focusing on silly stuff said by extremists and cherry-picked for shock effect by people who don't care to understand it.

If you actually did want to learn the info is out there, but you would not have got to your current position by trying to learn. Nothing you have said makes sense.

[–]fengpi 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I don't think I have ever gone to "TiA" and I'm not even sure what that is, so I don't know how I could've gotten horror stories from there.

So... raep kulchir is all around us. Yes? Raeperists are given too many protections by the courts and authorities do not adequately punish that crime, right? And raeperists are always getting away with it because society sides with them, yes? Those are comments I see repeated on feminist sties. What, exactly, am I getting wrong or mischaracterizing?

[–]JebberJabber -1 points0 points1 point 9 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

I'd call it "sexual consent culture" since "rape culture" is so widely taken as an accusation.

Yes, all sorts of things have an effect on our sexual consent culture. Life is complex, things affect other things. You were not born with ideas on sexual consent or how to interact with women. You learned by being immersed in our culture, and by personal experience interacting with women within that culture.

Courts are seldom involved in rape cases.
No more than a third of rapes are reported to police in the US. I find that figure surprisingly high. Few rapes I read about mention police.

University rape reporting is more like 10%, possibly because the social cost is so high on campus or at high school.

Maybe 10% of rapes even make it into court. About 3-5% of rapes end up with conviction in the US, depending on what is counted as rape.

So yes rapists usually go unpunished, and not even investigated.

And yes, sometimes feminists who haven't a clue about jurisprudence call for removal of legal protections rather than accepting that the nature of rape means the courts will never have a place in most cases. So what? Uninformed people make silly suggestions about all subjects. They have been calling for a relaxation of the standard of proof since the 70s. Nobody in the criminal justice system is listening. (College internal investigations are more comparable to civil dispute arbitration).

Our culture affects how police, medical staff and the legal system treats alleged victims. Good or bad, that is part of our rape culture. Another part of rape culture is the interactions with friends, family, workmates, classmates. Someone who has not been raped uses their culture to interpret an allegation and react to a victim. Where the culture is dominated by people with an incomplete or wrong understanding of the subject, the rape culture will serve all parties badly.

Much has changed in the last few decades and many police forces do a great job, but others have much room for improvement in their training. I've read of plenty of bad experiences but also a lot where the women were pleasantly surprised. You might be interested to know that a few women advise asking for a male officer because some female officers are noticeably unsympathetic to rape victims.

I wouldn't say society sides with rapists. The impossibility of proof or defence in most cases does make people reluctant to judge. A very common pattern is that when a friend group has to split in the aftermath of a rape, people tend to choose who to believe based upon their investment in each person and their friends. If the accused is popular the accuser can easily end up isolated with only one or two close friends for support.

Or zero. That happens, especially because habitual rapists are adept at picking out people without a support network. (Short dress and pretty face are not what attracts serial rapists particularly. Their main criterion is that the victim will keep her mouth shut).

Sure some feminists think society tends to side with rapists, by which they mean acknowledging doubt. That's of no more significance than MRAs and feminists each being equally convinced that FB and Twitter are against them.

TiA is TumblrInAction, the source of some of our shitposts. Attribution is rare, context is nonexistent, some of it is obviously fake, and a lot of it is written by 15 year old Tumblrinas whose opinions some MRAs are weirdly obsessed with.

[–]fengpi 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

I'd call it "sexual consent culture" since "rape culture" is so widely taken as an accusation.

Oh my. "Sexual consent culture" sounds way more intelligent and impressive. You are really on to something.

You were not born with ideas on sexual consent or how to interact with women. You learned by being immersed in our culture, and by personal experience interacting with women within that culture.

Yes. And it teaches us that raep is cool rather than villainous, correct? It teaches us that raep is right rather than wrong, yes? It teaches us that victims are always to blame and ought to be stigmatized. That is what our kulchir teaches, yeah? Our culture glorifies sexual violence. That is the characterization I see over and over and over all over the feminist blogosphere in a hundred different ways: Our culture glorifies sexual violence, protects the perpetrators of sexual violence and beats-down the victims. And you claim that is my straw-man, as if I plucked the notion from my own fevered imagination.

Courts are seldom involved in rape cases.

Well, as I said before: raepists know they probably won't be punished. Is that not what I'd basically said earlier? You'd scoffed at that, remember? And now you're saying basically the same thing yourself. Raepists won't be punished due to raep kulchir. That is what I had said, and now you are basically saying the same thing with slightly different words. How was I mischaracterizing things?

So yes rapists usually go unpunished, and not even investigated.

You see? You see? Why did you say I was wrong earlier? Why did you say that was a "bullshit straw-man," then? The perpetrators know they pretty much won't be punished. That's what I had said. That is what I had said and now you're saying it back to me with 'yes' added. How was I incorrect earlier, then? You'd called that a "bullshit straw-man" earlier. And now you're repeating it nearly verbatim as if it is a fact.

So how was I distorting things, hmm? How was I getting it so sorely wrong? Were my pixels not black enough for you?

About 3-5% of rapes end up with conviction in the US, depending on what is counted as rape.

So raepists know they won't be punished so they are free to commit their crimes. That's what I'd said earlier. You are basically repeating the "bullshit straw-men" that I'd said earlier, except you are now saying that the "bullshit straw-men" are correct. Did I use the wrong kind of periods at the ends of my sentences?

Our culture affects how police, medical staff and the legal system treats alleged victims.

Right. They are arrayed against victims. That is what I'd said earlier and you called it a straw-man. Why is it a straw-man coming from me, but it's a fact when it comes from you?

Where the culture is dominated by people with an incomplete or wrong understanding of the subject, the rape culture will serve all parties badly.

Right. It is arrayed against victims and in favor of rapists. That's another repetition of my straw-man which has now become the True True when coming from you.

See where the confusion comes from? When I say "XYZ" you say, "straw-man! The truth is xyz! Completely different!" Everything you have said so far is not very different from the "straw men" I had said earlier. Slightly different in spin and style, but not at all different in substance. The difference is that I am pouring-on the sarcasm extra-thick while you are saying extremely similar items without a trace of irony and in reverent credulity.

I wouldn't say society sides with rapists.

No? And yet, you essentially gave me a long list of statistics which purport to demonstrate that perpetrators are getting-away with it constantly and that, even when reported to authorities, multiple systems come-together and amount to massive barriers being put-up to the punishment of perpetrators. That is what I had said earlier-- rapists are basically allowed to act with impunity because they know they can probably get away with it-- and you dismissed that as a straw-man. Why? Because I chose the words "society sides with rapists" rather than some other virtually-synonymous word-choice? Fine. How about I say "society tacitly sides with rapists" then? Is that far more accurate? Because I'd hate to make a massive careless blunder such as insinuating that "society actively sides with rapists" when the truth is merely that "society passively sides with rapists." And the second statement is just oh-so wildly different from the first! I mean, there's just such a crucial, gigantic difference between openly favoring a criminal and secretly favoring a criminal, and I really should have been extra-precise with my English, lest I say a bullshit straw-man that you would then echo-back to me with a cosmetic adjustment or two.

habitual rapists are adept at picking out people without a support network.

Oh? But you'd also said elsewhere that plenty of everyday, clean-living decent men go-around habitually raeping people without really knowing that it is wrong. But these kinds of habitual perps make calculated secretive decisions to do so... as if they know that it is wrong. Gee, how is it that these oblivious but decent men who know no difference between sex and sexual violence have to go-around making calculated secretive decisions and deliberately, carefully choose their victims? And if sexual violence is glorified anyway, why is there a need to be secretive about it? Can't they go ahead and do glorified things openly? Why is subterfuge and lying necessary to do something that probably isn't going to be seriously punished anyway?

So far, everything you have said has been not extremely different from what I had said earlier. The only difference is that I think it's barely-substantiated idiot-garbage and you think it's the highest wisdom. Plus, you're even more incoherent and muddled and slippery about it than I'd earlier imagined.

[–]feedmecarrots 3 points4 points5 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

We know there is no rape culture. What they don't want is for us to know that they know there is no rape culture. This gets convoluted very quickly..

[–]thelividgamer 2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I know that you know that I know that he knows that you know.

[–]feedmecarrots 3 points4 points5 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Shhhh... Too many people know already!

[–]Pornography_saves_li 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Then psychology professor Ryan Mc Kelly is a fucking moron. Or, he believes logic and reason are patriarchal....wait, thats covered under 'moron'. So I guess comment complete.

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