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‘This is a right for these women’: Female-only pool hours spark debate

iTopiCati

June 7, 2016
96 upvotes
/r/MensRights
http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/fitness/exercise/this-is-a-right-for-these-women-femaleonly-pool-hours-spark-debate/news-story/6cd823b25772f62a1c1d4773ac106553
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Post Information
Title ‘This is a right for these women’: Female-only pool hours spark debate
Author

iTopiCati

Upvotes 96
Comments 33
Date June 7, 2016 11:46 PM UTC
(10 years ago)
Subreddit Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/4n23yw/this_is_a_right_for_these_women_femaleonly_pool/
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/this-is-a-right-for-these-women-female-only-pool.947928
https://theredarchive.com/post/947928
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Comments

[–][deleted] 33 points34 points35 points 10 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

Women, just like men, are entitled to absolutely nothing because of their gender or race. Nothing. Women are entitled to nothing. No one is entitled to anything.

We fight for an inclusive government. An accepting society. To go beyond what our forefathers thought acceptable to be compassionate to the individual. To be just and correct and equal. Not to demean or bias the individual but give them respect and security no matter what their story may be.

That's all.

[–]ulpisen 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

good luck convincing these sexists of that

[–]v573v 20 points21 points22 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

They have a right to practice their religion, but they have no right to ask other people to practice their religion. They are making other people observe their religious customs and they have no right to do that.

[–]Tmomp 7 points8 points9 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

And for public facilities, they want to make me pay for their religious practice.

No thanks.

[–]Griever114 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Agreed.

[–]PowerWisdomCourage 14 points15 points16 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

These women have the right to turn around and go home. That's it. If they can't operate in every day society, then they need counseling to get over their issues. The whole of society doesn't need to cater to them.

[–]Griever114 8 points9 points10 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Hasidic women were “very distraught” after learning the female-only pool hours might be discontinued.

How about they unfuck their religion before they cry discrimination.

[+][deleted] 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]andejoh 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

To me having equivalent male only hours would be the simple solution. Women have as many hours between 7 AM and 7 PM as men. They should be able to find time to swim if say 5 of those hours were men only.

[–]garglemesh42 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

[deleted]

What is this?

[–]Leinadro 5 points6 points7 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

“The pool is open from 7am to 7am,” a local woman, who asked not to be named, told theNew York Post. “You can’t tell me that the men don’t have enough hours in the day to swim, that they have to interfere with these women?”

Most likely said by a woman who either has a work schedule that works with those hours of operation or doesnt have a work schedule at all.

I myself have a work day that is 8a-5p. If I were in that area to use that pool I would have at best 1 hour a day to use that pool.

[–]Sasha_ 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Next thing you know men will be wanting male-only golf clubs!

Oh, er, wait...

[–]throwbackaway19 20 points21 points22 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

The issue is the hypocrisy. Same people say men shouldn't have male-only golf clubs, but there should be women-only hours at the pool. They don't realize they are hypocrites.

And in this case, it is a public pool. Can you think of any public golf courses that are for men only? I can not.

[–]DirtAndGrass 6 points7 points8 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Are the golf clubs publicly funded?

[–]dungone 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Sorry, but men have never wanted women to pay for male-only golf clubs. They never asked women to pay full price for a club membership that they were only allowed to use part of the time. It's perfectly fine to have male-only or female-only clubs, otherwise, unless of course you're the type of person who believes in shutting down all the male-only clubs while keeping all the female-only clubs around.

[–]Sasha_ 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I agree - sorry if that wasn't clear - my point being how can feminists complain about male-only clubs of any sort, then busily set-about creating female-only clubs?

[–]qdobe 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Like the woman said, well intentioned, but still unlawful.

[+][deleted] -23 points-22 points-21 points 10 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link

Dude, do you have any idea what life is like for women in Hasidic Jewish communities? If you did, you surely wouldn't begrudge them a chance to go swimming without being branded a whore and judged by her entire community. It's only a few hours a week. It's no different than pools having a "family swim" time where you can't go if you're not with your kids (or kids can't go if they aren't with their parents), or having a "lane swim" time where they will only let you swim if you're there to do lengths, or when they have swimming lessons and you can't go swim if you're not a little kid taking a swimming lesson.

And it's not as if there aren't any male-only things going on in that city. Does that bother you too?

[–]throwbackaway19 15 points16 points17 points 10 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

The difference here is choice. Hasidic Jews have a choice to be in that community or not, to be branded or not depending on who they swim with. They can even swim in a private pool if they want one. No one will stop them. But nobody can choose their sex. If the rules say a public pool that the public pays for is going to exclude whole half of the citizens, then there is a problem. Public funding for discrimination? No thank you. At worst, have separate but equal. Have equal time that is men only and women only. At worst.

[–]BDMR_lurker 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

You are claiming victim status (for these women) to obtain exclusivity of use of communal goods.  

This does not compare to your other examples.  

 

Family swim, lane swim and such all aim at physically separating hardcore swimmers from more casual swimmers (kindergarten toddlers are awfully casual), for safety reasons.  

 

In my experience, these are not exclusive, ie: only half the pool is dedicated to serious lane swimming at a given time, leaving the other half for the "general public".  

And restricitons work both ways: at my local, paddles are explicitely forbidden outside of dedicated lanes.  

 

Having kids is an actual expectation of society. Developping serious swimming skill is a known risk of swimming.  

Both are expected by any reasonnable man.  

So is the ability to co-mingle with the other gender when wearing proper swimming attire.  

 

Freedom of belief does not entitle one to burden the community at large with the costs associated with said belief, or to impose one's customs on non-believers.  

[+][deleted] -16 points-15 points-14 points 10 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

Hasidic Jews have a choice to be in that community or not,

Yeah, they totes could just like move out of that neighbourhood if they didn't want to live there. Yeah. All those women could just leave. What about their husband and kids, their jobs...their lives? Not everyone has the choice you think they do. Most of us have our choices restricted by things like our finances.

They can even swim in a private pool if they want one.

What if they can't afford one? What if nobody they know owns one?

If the rules say a public pool that the public pays for is going to exclude whole half of the citizens, then there is a problem.

They already do. They exclude people when they hold family swims, swimming lessons, and when they offer times when the pool can be booked for private functions.

[–][deleted] 15 points16 points17 points 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

So, let me get this straight. These women are in these communities and are essentially trapped into a life that's so confining they can't even swim in a public pool, and rather than do what we can as a society to FREE them from this sub-culture, so they can have the freedom entitled to them as human beings, we're going to just shift our pool hours around so they can get a tiny little glimpse of a life for a few hours a day and pat ourselves on the back for it?

Either they have the choice to leave, or they don't. If they have the choice to leave but do not, then why are we catering to a situation they put themselves in? And if they don't? Let's free them. This route where we limp them along in bondage with band aids while we turn a blind eye to the fact their religion is extraordinarily controlling is bullshit.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

rather than do what we can as a society to FREE them from this sub-culture, so they can have the freedom entitled to them as human beings, we're going to just shift our pool hours around so they can get a tiny little glimpse of a life for a few hours a day and pat ourselves on the back for it?

There's not much you can do to free them. People have the right to practice their religion; you can't just outlaw Hasidic Judaism. It's easier to just do something simple like offer the women and girls a couple hours a week in which they can swim and get some exercise and have a bit of fun.

This route where we limp them along in bondage with band aids while we turn a blind eye to the fact their religion is extraordinarily controlling is bullshit.

Then what do you propose as a solution, hm?

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

You've answered your own question. If people have the right to practice their own religion and this is clearly a choice these women have made, then we're back to the original complaint: why should society be forced to bend to adjust to a free choice these women have made? If we can tell smokers that they have to engage in their habit outside of restaurants and bars, tell them they can't do it in cars with children, etc. we can tell these women that their choices can't be allowed to impact the rest of society.

Our solution is to open up the pool hours to everyone. If their religion prohibits it, and they want to swim, then they should be doing a long, hard think about why they are in that religion when it restricts them from things they want to do, not trying to have their cake and eat it, too, at the expense of their fellow citizens.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

why should society be forced to bend to adjust to a free choice these women have made?

For the same reason that society is "forced to bend" to accommodate swimming lessons, family swim time, private pool rentals, and lane swims. Going to a public pool when you want is not a legally guaranteed right; the pool is privately owned and they can set whatever hours they want.

They already had times where swimming was only available for adults - no teens, no kids. They have times where instead of a general swim, they offer classes for children. Why doesn't any of that bother you? It's no different. Or do you think that they should only ever offer swims that are open to all genders and all ages?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

For the same reason that society is "forced to bend" to accommodate swimming lessons, family swim time, private pool rentals, and lane swims.

Those are FUNCTIONAL differences, not gender differences or religious differences. It's perfectly reasonable to carve out distinct time for lane swim vs. family swim because they are mutually exclusive at a functional level - one cannot happen without physically interfering with the other. It's not reasonable to give women a dedicated slot because specific women opted to join/stay in a harsh religion that doesn't jive with modern society. There's nothing that has to change at the pool level, with equipment or due to openly conflicting activities.

If they ultimately opt to accommodate, then they should carve out similar time for men, because there's all sorts of sects of Islam that won't let men work out with women present. The very same rational being used for these Hasidic Jews is more than enough justification for male only time, too.

IMO, though, it's the 21st century, and if these hoary old religions can't get their act together and are isolating their members to the point of being pariahs, it's not society that needs to bend so that they can have their cake and eat it, too. It's the members that need to reconcile their religion with modern reality.

[–]BaconCatBug 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Play shitty games, get shitty results. If they don't like it it's their own fault

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Yeah, blame the women who are born into these communities and grow up in them for the oppressive sexism of the religion practiced by their families. That makes sense. Of course it's their fault.

You are utterly lacking in compassion for these women...why is that? Maybe I'm biased because I know what it's like to be a girl in a deeply conservative religious group, and how hard it is to get yourself out of it.

[–]ABC_Florida 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

You can choose your religion. (I may be wrong here, because I know nothing about Hasidic Jews.) It gives something it takes something. It is totally your choice to evaluate that it is worth the sacrifices. There are other branches of Judaism. Jewish people are well educated people, IMO. I see teen kids reading the Torah and speaking multiple languages, at that age I was cycling, running around with my friends. Of course it is not the same as being chastised for wearing a bikini. Or something similar. Worst case scenario McCarren Park Pool is 1 mile away.

Can you describe what is it like to be a woman in the community?

What legal privileges do men have in your community?

How is Hasidic Judaism different from the rest of Jewish religion?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

It's a lot different when you are born into it and raised in it. Yes, everyone still has a choice. But the choice is a lot harder to make when you are so deeply embedded into it and the penalty for walking away is so steep. In the mean time offering them a chance to swim seems like a minor thing to bitch about.

[–]ABC_Florida 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

In the mean time offering them a chance to swim seems like a minor thing to bitch about.

Not worth giving up ground solely over feelings.A few years back there was a debate over female only hours in McGill University Gym. A female Muslim student was arguing that she feels uncomfortable sweating in the presence of men, and she feels intimidated in the weight section.

This is the same reasoning as in the case of this pool. Get privileges based on my feelings. Both a gym and a pool is a community place. Not a safe space for every single individual to cater to his/her feelings. If you feel uncomfortable entering a community, so don't enter it. Entering it, and having it turned it to your liking is privilege. I was a skinny guy once, who worked out home, because I don't wanted to be laughing matter at the gym. My colleague convinced me to buy a monthly pass. I've never felt intimidated even by a guy twice my size. Never felt intimidated by male scream while benching, and never felt annoyed by female ones. I've got some compliments, a few even from women. I loved to chat with the female receptionist, she was a kind lady.

But two or three times a week I ran into a personal trainer with his "harem". They were quite annoying, and held people up. Basically that group of the trainer (4 women) visited the gym not to get fit, but to get attention and catering from a sexy trainer. They were sitting in the machines nearby, flirting with the PT, and watching one of them using another machine. Other people followed the etiquette: put a towel on the machine, did their reps, had a 1-2 minute break walking or standing, new reps again, and when they were done, they grabbed their towels and left the machine to others. Guys working out in pairs were the most effective, while on is using the machine, the other stands by resting, then they change towels, and trade place. So for them there was no "That's my towel, I'll be there in a minute, I'm just having a short rest."

Wouldn't that have been ridiculous for me to approach the owner, and ask her for male only hours on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday from 3 pm to 4 pm, because those women were frequenting the club that time? (To clarify the other 95% of women or men did not behave the same way as those 4 women.) Would that not be a privilege to exclude a broad group of people because a tiny minority of that group bothered me?

[–]Mens-Advocate 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

So why not parallel men-only hours? Men are also human beings capable of feeling modesty.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I don't know. I'm not the one who made this rule in the first place. You'd have to ask the pool's board of directors. Honestly, it'd probably be a good idea, because I suspect the men are also unable to swim around the opposite sex.

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