Came here to out of interest, very surprised and overjoyed with what I saw.

xNOM · 2016-05-25T00:02:09+00:00

Firstly, I have to say that we have to stop trusting studies so much.

Or one could just get a real science education and learn some critical thinking skills? Without science and history all there is, is feeelings. This idea that "statistics lie" and "studies don't mean anything" is for children.

HotDealsInTexas · 2016-05-25T02:07:07+00:00

As a male feminist (go heforshe and all that) I tend to see a lot of man hating and I'm always pretty quick to tell anyone M or F to shut the fuck up about it. It does, however sometimes lead to a biased view of men's rights activism because it is rarely shared in a good light by feminists, and even then it's only the smarter ones. It is due to this that I came into this subreddit with a tinge of scepticism, but I have to say I'm actually really happy with what I've read so far.

Great, so this should be a nice, productive threa-

Firstly, I have to say that we have to stop trusting studies so much. They're so easily used to propagate stupid agendas. Feminists do it (feminazis even more so) and men's rights activists do it too. I'm not saying they have no value, I'm saying they're not the law of how the world works, they're a shot in the dark. Watch last week tonight's episode about it, John Oliver does a fairly good job of explaining the lee way you have when you have that much data.

...use critical thinking skills. Consider the way studies are conducted, what variables were controlled for, etc, as well as looking at possible bias in the institution conducting the study. Don't just make blanket statements like "distrust studies."

Secondly, the rape arguments aren't opposed. The two groups just focus on different areas, with feminists focusing on trying to lower rape rates and the social constructs that allow it, while men's rights activists focus on the problem of false accusations.

Obviously both pay attention to the other's focus.

That's fucking garbage. Feminists pay the wrong kind of attention: they actively make false accusations WORSE by pushing for laws and policies eliminating burden of proof, spreading shit like "listen and believe," and categorically calling men who are concerned about false accusations "rape apologists."

I don't think going against feminism is a way to stop false accusations,

Going against feminist-backed policies which encourage false accusations by making them much more effective and less risky is absolutely a way to stop false accusations.

nor do I think man hating is a way to stop rape

Congratulations, you've achieved the basic minimum of "decent human being." This is like showing up at a BLM protest and saying: "I don't think summary execution of black people without trial is a good way of reducing crime."

MRAs AND FEMINISTS WORKING TOGETHER IS THE ONLY WAY TO PROGRESS.

The Feminist movement, even when it acts like it cares about Men's issues, has consistently told men that their role is to sit down, shut up, and only speak when spoken to. And again, Feminism ACTIVELY OPPOSES progress on false accusations.

When I see an organization like NOW lobbying congress to pass laws banning public naming of people suspected of rape because if the accusation is false than the victims are still stigmatized for life, I'll consider believing you. Until then, I don't believe there is a place in Feminism for men who are concerned about men's issues... I mean, aside from playpens like MensLib.

Thirdly, feminism writers do not represent feminist views. Activists may, but not all feminists believe the same things just like I'm sure there is disagreement between MRAs too. Feminist writers are in their position because they are controversial and allow idiots to feel empowered.

Right. Feminist writers, Feminist academics, organizations like NOW, and basically EVERYONE WHO ACTUALLY DEFINES THE DIRECTION OF THE MOVEMENT is "Not representative." It doesn't fucking matter what the majority of people who identify as Feminist but don't actually do anything believe, what represents Feminist views is the views of the people who are actually getting media exposure and getting public policy changed, just like the Republican party is represented by Republican lawmakers because they're the ones who are passing laws.

(I don't know if) Fourthly (is the word), most feminist (and not feminazis masquerading as feminists would absolutely agree that in the event of divorce there should be no bias to women, and that in the event of child custody, the severe bias toward mothers is ridiculous, sexist and must be changed.

NOW, the largest Feminist organization in the US, in the past several months ACTIVELY LOBBIED AGAINST a bill which would make 50/50 custody the default. Stop lying and making No True Scotsman arguments. These people are not "masquerading as Feminists," they are the mainstream of your movement. If you want to make any progress, you have to accept reality.

After all that I'll say that I'm both a feminist and a men's rights activist.

And when Feminism directly opposes progress on Men's issues? Which side will you be taking? So far in this thread, all you've done is defend Feminism's harmful actions.

Rex9 · 2016-05-24T21:45:42+00:00

On rape: It's bad. It shouldn't be done. Women rape men (and boys) too, though the dogma is that a man can't be raped by a woman. Rape is at its lowest rates in 30+ years and declining, yet to listen to the media and feminist establishment, it's an epidemic. It's not, and claiming it is hurts their cause. Claiming that false rape accusations are absurdly low also hurts their cause. False rape accusations are demonstrably higher than the fraction of a percent they'll allow as reality.

This brings us next to "Feminism writers". Don't know what you've been ingesting, but those "writers" are the one's with the ears of politicians and lawmakers. We're perfectly well aware that most people aren't on that end of the spectrum. But look at the Title IX madness. It's a perfect example of the way our laws and organizations are being mindwarped by the Feminazi viewpoint.

As far as "no bias to women" - I think I can safely say that that argument lives right up until equal treatment is applied. Then the sisterhood gets up in arms to defend their own against the "unjust treatment". Got some news, if being treated equally is unjust, then the treatment of the men has been unjust forever. Just look at criminal sentencing - it's pretty much daily we see some woman being treated lightly because, well, she's female.

There's so much more. Women have it so good in this and other first world countries. They play the victim card hard to keep the system rigged in their favor. Doesn't matter how many reasonable women are out on the streets, it's the ones making and influencing policy that guide the conversation and lawmaking.

Tedesche · 2016-05-25T06:38:59+00:00

While I appreciate the peaceful, bridge-building spirit of your post, I think you're failing to understand the depth and scope of the MRM's criticisms of feminism. That's understandable—you're new here, and you're coming from the other side of the tracks, so you've got all your positive experiences with feminists telling you it's not all bad.

For what it's worth, before I get into anything else, I will mention /r/FeMRADebates, and encourage you to check that sub out. You can't post/comment unless you join, but the discussions there tend to be a lot more balanced and sophisticated that the ones here. This sub is an MRM base, so you're going to see a fair bit of bias here—that's just the nature of in-group discussions.

As to your post, I think you're drawing a somewhat artificial line between feminists and "feminazis." You yourself should know that feminism consists of a number of different branches these days, and that they agree/disagree on a lot of things. Point being, it's not as simple as "some people flying the feminist flag are not feminists." In reality, any particular feminist can hold a variety of views, some of which may be sexist. This includes moderate and mainstream feminists. You say the views of feminist pundits don't reflect the views of the movement, but those pundits are pundits because they have a large number of supporters within feminism, so they quite clearly do represent the views of many feminists, and therefore are legitimate ambassadors for the movement. I've known many feminists in my lifetime, and they span the gamut, but even the moderate ones have dismissed many men's rights issues as either not or less important that feminist ones.

For example:

most feminist (and not feminazis masquerading as feminists would absolutely agree that in the event of divorce there should be no bias to women, and that in the event of child custody, the severe bias toward mothers is ridiculous, sexist and must be changed.

I don't know if you're aware, but some very influential feminist groups have been trying to block changes to alimony and child custody laws in Florida for several years now. These aren't the "feminazis"—these are feminist leaders and activists of the highest caliber, and they're campaigning to keep men out of their children's lives and in their gender-role of "provider."

One of the most basic criticisms you'll see of feminism here is that it talks a good talk, but walks a very different walk. Most feminists I've met will defend feminism as a movement that fights for total gender equality, but the lack of attention paid to men's issues compared to women's is laughably obvious. Some will admit that feminism isn't as concerned with men's issues as it is women's, but will deny that feminism is against rights for men. Well, what's going on in Florida is just one example that contradicts that assertion. The fact of the matter is that feminists are very frequently against rights for men when those rights would mean women giving up some of their privileges. Feminists love to talk about male privileges and how a lot of men mistake their loss of privilege with persecution, but the truth of the matter is that feminists do the exact same thing. Feminism is actually a lot more like the patriarchy it claims to fight than it is willing to admit. It's not really trying to dismantle patriarchy—it's trying to remodel it, get rid of the parts that disadvantage women, while preserving the parts that advantage them. Quite arguably, it's trying to replace patriarchy with matriarchy.

The misinformation feminists spread about the MRM is their attempt to maintain its veritable monopoly in gender politics. Feminists are not interested in sharing power, and they want to be seen as the one and only answer to sexism. Their token "men's movement" is their lame offering to men seeking action on men's issues, and its current figurehead, Michael Kimmel, is a strong proponent of "toxic masculinity" theory, which claims that men are actually their own worst enemies, and that it is masculinity itself that is to blame for the ways in which they are victimized. Kimmel's work focuses on how toxic masculinity is created and reinforced by men themselves—that women sometimes contribute to it is but a footnote, and always accompanied by the reminder that men are principally responsible for patriarchy (feminism's sexist catch-all term for societal sexism), and therefore women are really just doing what men trained them to do. Both men and women suffer from patriarchy, but men share a greater degree of responsibility for it.

There is no doubt that feminism has done many great things for women, and it is certainly true that men have benefited from these things peripherally in some ways. It is unfortunately also true that those changes have created new problems for men that feminists have declined to address and refused to accept responsibility for. The latest example is the recent push to end sexual assault on college campuses. The cause is noble, but it is being implemented in a blindly unjust fashion that happens to benefit women, and feminists are completely silent about that at best, and worst are actively denying it. This sort of selective activism is par for the course for feminism, and it's proven to be an extremely effective way for them to functionally strip men of their rights, while keeping its hands seemingly clean. They push against the pendulum of social justice where it infringes on women's rights, but when it crosses back past center and starts to infringe on the rights of men, they fail to pull it back and frequently resist the efforts of men pushing from the other side.

Look at how men are now doing progressively worse than women in school across the board, and yet a primary focus of feminist activists today is still how women aren't faring as well as them in specific areas (STEM). Look at how feminists are calling for more lenient sentencing for women and alternatives to prison for female criminals, when there is already a documented bias in women's favor when it comes to criminal sentencing and women make up less than 10% of the prison population. One of the main arguments given for this particular push is the claim that women are driven to crime under very different circumstances than men—namely that female criminals have often suffered from domestic violence, sexual abuse, and drug addiction. Well, in actuality, male criminals have overwhelmingly suffered from all those things too, but feminists are nonetheless spinning a narrative that only reflects half the truth. Another argument for it is that women often leave behind children when they're incarcerated, which then go into the foster care system. They conveniently forget to mention that a lot of those women are single mothers because those children's fathers are in prison.

In short, feminists frequently fight exclusively for women, and often against men, all while claiming they're fighting for both, and that everyone should be feminists. I hope you can understand how insidiously sexist that is. I hope you spend more time on this sub (and seriously, do check out FeMRADebates too) and start to look at feminism with a bit more of a skeptical/critical eye. It is nothing like what it claims to be, but it enjoys so much societal power these days that few people bother to really scrutinize it. I encourage you to check your bias and take a fresh look at it. I say that as someone who is relatively new to the MRM myself—I'm not some lifer here. I'm actually a fairly liberal male who will probably (but very grudgingly) be voting for Hillary in November, despite the blatantly sexist things she's said and her public support for a lot of the feminist half-truths/lies that are currently in vogue.

It's a nice dream that feminists and MRAs can be political allies and join forces to extinguish societal sexism for both genders, but sadly, I don't think that's really feasible, because to do so, feminists would first have to admit that a lot of MRA criticism is valid, and start taking responsibility for it. No, I think a much more likely way things will play out is that the MRM will grow to become a true political opponent to feminism that checks it from overstepping its bounds in the politically adversarial system by which our democracies now function. Eventually, the unaffiliated will get sick of the fighting, and a true egalitarian movement will form. Then, and only then, will both feminism and the MRM become defunct, and we may really start to get a gender-equal society. That, in my experience, is just how politics and social movements function, sad as it may be.

Arby01 · 2016-05-24T22:07:47+00:00

Yeah, you know what? Almost every guy here agrees with what you have written in theory.

However, in practice:

Regarding studies: Feminist professors doing studies actually have a profound impact on our legal system. Even when such studies are outright lies:

http://www.acbr.com/biglie.htm

This one study has significantly impacted many men that are part of the MRM.

Why focus on studies? Because they affect law and society.

regarding rape arguments:

“They have a lot of pain, but it is not a pain that I would necessarily have spared them. I think it ideally initiates a process of self-exploration. ‘How do I see women?’ ‘If I didn’t violate her, could I have?’ ‘Do I have the potential to do to her what they say I did?’ Those are good questions.” - Catherine Comins, Vassar College Assistant Dean of Student Life in Time, June 3, 1991, p. 52 speaking about false accusations.

There are a lot of links of feminists telling everyone that false rape accusations are so rare that they are a non-existent phenomena and more seriously that holding some one accountable for falsely reporting is detrimental to justice for victims. Essentially, lock, stock and barrel, they believe that the false accusation victim doesn't deserve justice because it might have a negative effect on actual rape reporting.

Regarding not all feminists:

Yeah, we know that. To some extent no one cares about Ms. soccermom feminist who thinks girls should be able to take shop class too. We agree with her. We care about the ones showing up to UofT to stop talks about how to improve the lot of men and boys who are committing suicides 4x more often than women. We care about the ones writing articles and clickbait. We care about Emma Watson who basically told the UN that men need to line up and throw themselves under the bus so that women can get more of whatever it is they want.

There is also a question of the impact of the day to day feminist, who sees an article that says "new scholarship for girls to go to university buy this product to contribute" and thinks "hey, that's a good thing, more girls in Uni" without ever realizing that Uni is almost 70% girls now and there are a ton more funding options available to girls than boys. In fact, why aren't their calls to eliminate single gender non STEM scholarships for girls?

Opposition to shared parenting: http://www.nownys.org/archives/leg_memos/oppose_a00330.html

And that is all dealing with what you have brought up before looking at feminism's other advocacy:

Activism against talks for men and boys: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iARHCxAMAO0

Activism for women to get even lower sentences for crimes: https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/11/06/we-should-stop-putting-women-in-jail-for-anything/

Activism against MR - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvYyGTmcP80 (also the UoT protest, maybe this is double dipping).

The problem isn't that MR and Feminism don't share the same ideology, it's that Feminist practice isn't actually interested in equality unless that equality is a benefit to women. Alternatively, modern feminist advocacy (as in the prison sentencing thing) is about playing on societies natural inclination to prefer women to men to gain even more inequality.

Feminism is opposed here, not because of what it claims as it's ideology, but because of what it does in the name of that ideology.

mjsansai · 2016-05-24T23:01:02+00:00

As Milo said, " Feminism is Cancer"

rottingchrist · 2016-05-25T02:01:44+00:00

Thanks, but we don't need you or your concern. Please go away.

DavidByron2 · 2016-05-24T22:53:11+00:00

I have to say I'm actually really happy with what I've read so far.

I cannot say the same of you.

You're coming here and dishonestly comparing us with your hate movement.

DavidByron2 · 2016-05-24T22:27:16+00:00

If you care about men, you will denounce feminism. You don't even have to be an MRA. Feminism has been garbage since day one. We will never work together, feminism will always be the enemies of men.

swejap · 2016-05-25T01:27:18+00:00

Karen Straughan summed it up perfectly:

Feminist: -What do you want from feminism?

Karen Straughan: -Nothing.

DevilishRogue · 2016-05-25T08:58:44+00:00

As a whole, I still think that rape is a larger problem than false accusations, due to sheer numbers

What makes you think there aren't more false accusations than rapes?

TBFProgrammer · 2016-05-24T23:04:02+00:00

1) There is a difference between the so-called "hard" sciences and the so-called "soft" sciences that has nothing to do with subject matter. Instead, it has to do with the application of rigor to their studies and peer review process. The "soft" sciences do a very poor job of this, which makes most of their studies worthless. The data issue you mentioned is called data mining, and the core of the problem is using data to generate a hypothesis, as opposed to generating the hypothesis first and then collecting data to test it. Simply following the proper order of the steps involved in the scientific method blocks this issue from occurring.

2) Feminist activism on rape takes two approaches. One is to shame all men by accusing them by association. This is something that needs to be outright opposed, and includes the fallacious idea that we simply need to educate men about consent. The second is not actually aimed at lowering rape, but making it easier for accusers to "get justice" by lowering the barrier between accusations and penalties. This is where false accusations become a problem. In a properly functioning justice system, false accusations are fairly close to a non-issue, as they have a very low chance of harming the accused and a decently high chance of harming the accuser (through cases regarding perjury and defamation). About the only thing that the two movements could work together on would be a responsibility to report when one is in fact raped, but feminists do quite a lot to discourage this.

3) What evidence, aside from your own sampling-biased anecdotes, do you have to support this statement? My sampling-biased anecdotes support the idea that disagreement with these writers is the minority position within feminism. Occam's Razor also supports my conclusion. See point four for even more support of my conclusion.

4) [Drop the -ly from first/second/third/fourth, it is redundant] The National Organization for Women is the most prominent and well-funded feminist organization in the US. Until the late 1990s, its national branch openly opposed any attempt to remedy this issue. Its state branches still routinely campaign against such remedies, such as the recently defeated alimony and custody reform bill in Florida. Also, prenuptial agreements are only as solid as far as the divorce court judge is willing to agree with them.

civilsaint · 2016-05-25T00:10:07+00:00

I appreciate your post and I'm glad you posted. These type of conversations need to happen more, and unfortunately I got banned from /r/AskFeminists for asking if they thought the definition of rape should be changed so that made to penetrate was included. It was a great discussion and all by one thought it should, then I got banned because unfortunately, a lot of feminists are about censorship.

I used to consider myself a feminist because I bought the whole equality thing, and I do believe in equality.

My problem is that in issues like rape, no feminist leader comes out and says we need to stop false allegations. They downplay it and call it rare and push to make it even easier to falsely accuse and strip rights away from the accused.

They claim it is so rare that we shouldn't pay any mind to it, and use the argument that so many rapes are unreported, as if this matters to the falsely accused. I haven't heard ANYONE say, 'Well, only 22 out of 100,000 are raped a year, so fuck it, let's just ignore it.' That would be ludicrous.

That is a trademark of feminism. If it doesn't negatively affect them, they don't care and men are expendable. If women start getting falsely accused of rape, let's see how petty feminists find it then.

It's like this on a host of issues. I want to see equality, and I will stand up in cases where women are being treated unfairly. But the term 'feminist' has been corrupted and pissed on by the third wave.

Anonymous--Rex · 2016-05-25T06:23:53+00:00

You're trying to be middle of the road and open to both sides- that's a good thing, but it strikes me that you're a bit too close to feminist paradigms to really see it from an outside perspective yet. I implore you not to take my word for it, though. Stick around and listen and participate. Keep that open mind; it'll serve your purposes better than any label will.

sayshey · 2016-05-25T12:46:57+00:00

Super happy to see you come here with an open mind. I'm positive others will go over your individual remarks.

I'm just going to point out that many many of us were feminists before we ever came here. If you would like an example of why it is unlikely we will be working with feminism in the near future, go over to /r/feminism and make a post that says, I went over to the /r/mensrights and they don't seem that bad. See how open minded feminism is.

We identify mostly as egalitarian here, we want actual equality, and honest communication. We're in mensrights because despite the claim, feminism doesn't work on men's issues. If they ARE working on men's issues and I'm just unaware of it, please provide some links. Most of us have done this research, you'll likely be one of us sooner or later too.

Pariahdog119 · 2016-05-24T21:15:35+00:00

WHAT? LOGIC ON THE INTERNET???? WHAT IS THIS MADNESS???!??!!!1?!one

Title	Came here to out of interest, very surprised and overjoyed with what I saw.
Author	FreelancerRhode
Upvotes	8
Comments	136
Date	May 24, 2016 8:54 PM UTC (10 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/4kw0cm/came_here_to_out_of_interest_very_surprised_and/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/came-here-to-out-of-interest-very-surprised-and.948901 https://theredarchive.com/post/948901

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