An Interesting Story

spiraldinosaur · 2022-10-03T11:47:33+00:00

Saying that feminists should "regulate and police" the vocal extremist side is a bit like saying men should "regulate and police" red pill speakers. I - as a man who is a feminist - can do as much to stop someone tweeting some shitty red pill commentary as I can to stop someone tweeting "men are trash".

It's important to remember that feminism is not some exclusive club where everyone agrees with each other and has some particular agenda together. Feminism is simply an idea; an extremely broad idea with no specific final answers. There are also people who call themselves feminists who are actively fighting against trans women having the right to identify as women (TERFs). I absolutely do not regard these people as feminists. I believe feminism is intersectional and should be inclusive. I can argue with them, but I can't stop them. Simply put, there is no universal agreement on what feminism is and how it should be practised. You can't see "feminism" as this one side or group or club vs you/men/patriarchy/whatever. There is a lot of discourse within feminism and lots of disagreements, and just because some people do things in the name of feminism that I disagree with does not mean I will stop calling myself a feminist.

I'd also like to add that I have never heard anyone saying "men are trash" without it being triggered by the behaviour of a man. Typically the women I've heard say this have had to deal with an unending list of shitty behaviour from men throughout their lives. And the more you listen to women, the more you realise how extremely common this trashy behaviour is from men. It's endemic. And to expect women to deal with this on a daily basis and not lash out with some throwaway comment every now and then at the expense of men is unreasonable. When I hear/read it, I usually see what it was that made a woman say such a thing and think "yea, that's pretty trashy." I don't take it personally as a man, I simply recognise that this is a cathartic response to the conditions these women face.

And so, what you have to recognise is that there's an imbalance of getting angry with women for saying "men are trash", but not getting angry with men for doing trashy things to women so often. If you watched two kids playing, and the first starts hitting the other, then after a few minutes the second hits back, are you going to tell the second kid to stop being so aggressive?

Otherwise, yes you make some really valid points about discussion and discourse. I had to adapt my twitter to remove any political content and hide trending topics because it was so FULL of TERFs and transphobic bullshit. I used to get into arguments on there all the time to the point it was impacting my health, then I realised that nobody is going to change their mind from a tweet. It's a waste of time. Since then I've made an effort to engage in fuller conversations (up to a point, it can still be a waste of time) and to reach out and talk, rather than arguing. Asking questions and challenging someone's point of view is so much more effective that attacking it.

I think generally in life these days, we're missing those in-person spaces where people can actually have these in depth discussions. The internet makes it so easy to go full caps lock and shout at each other because a) it's hard to interpret each other's emotions from their writing and b) there are basically no visible consequences to arguing with faceless text. We need to take it away from the screen and into the real world, then people will actually connect on a much better level.

Independent_Bee_7282 · 2022-10-03T17:45:07+00:00

For the longest time, I (25m) branded myself as an anti-Men's Rights. While I like their theory and the principles of how they started out, they fail to regulate and police their vocal and extremist "incel" wing
I thought to myself, "Replace the word 'women' in the slogan 'women are trash' with another demographic. Women, Muslims, Jews, Asians, Caucasians, etc."

I don't know how anyone else would take that, but it sure as Hell sounded like extremist rhetoric to me. With that, I was able to confirm my position as anti-Men's Rights.

-------------
Saying 'men are trash' is fundamentally different from criticizing another minority culture.
White males, are literally the most privileged/least discriminated class of people in the world.

Saying "black people are trash" is MASSIVELY different than saying "men are trash" and it is not even close to a fair comparison.

Environmental-Row979 · 2022-10-03T19:48:53+00:00

For anyone looking to explore feminist thinking and theory -- but who wants/needs to stay rooted in common language and real-life examples, I highly recommend bell hooks' Feminism is for Everybody -- she has entire chapters on feminist masculinity, race, and gender. I cannot recommend it enough.

From the intro (which explains why she wrote this book):

"Everywhere I go I proudly tell folks who want to know who I am and what I do that I am a writer, a feminist theorist, a cultural critic ... I tend to hear all about the evil of feminism and the bad feminists: how "they" hate men; how "they" want to go against nature and god; how "they" are all lesbians; how "they" are taking all the jobs and making the world hard for white men, who do not stand a chance.

... They do not even think about feminism as being about rights - about women gaining equal rights. When I talk about the feminism I know - up close and personal- they willingly listen, although when our conversations end, they are quick to tell me I am different, not like the "real" feminists who hate men, who are angry. I assure them I am as a real and as radical a feminist as one can be, and if they dare to come closer to feminism they will see it is not how they have imagined it.

Each time I leave one of these encounters, I want to have in my hand a little book so that I can say, read this book, and it will tell you what feminism is, what the movement is about. I want to be holding in my hand a concise, fairly easy to read and understand book; not a long book, not a book thick with hard to understand jargon and academic language, but a straightforward, clear book - easy to read without being simplistic. From the moment feminist thinking, politics, and practice changed my life, I have wanted this book. I have wanted to give it to the folk I love so that they can understand better this cause, this feminist politics I believe in so deeply, that is the foundation of my political life.

I have wanted them to have an answer to the question "what is feminism?" that is rooted neither in fear or fantasy. I have wanted them to have this simple definition to read again and again so they know: "Feminism is a movement to end sexism, sexist exploitation, and oppression." I love this definition, which I first offered more than 10 years ago in my book Feminist Theory: From Margin to Center. I love it because it so clearly states that the movement is not about being anti-male. It makes it clear that the problem is sexism. And that clarity helps us remember that all of us, female and male, have been socialized from birth on to accept sexist thought and action. As a consequence, females can be just as sexist as men. And while that does not excuse or justify male domination, it does mean that it would be naive and wrongminded for feminist thinkers to see the movement as simplistically being for women against men. To end patriarchy (another way of naming the institutionalized sexism) we need to be clear that we are all participants in perpetuating sexism until we change our minds and hearts, until we let go of sexist thought and action and replace it with feminist thought and action. "

Anyway ... I highly recommend buying your own copy, but you can also find it online -- for example, here is a full PDF copy.

fathergoose77 · 2022-10-03T23:18:58+00:00

An important reminder: an extremist is labeled such because they are an outlier and do not represent the actual theory. Feminist theory is rooted in equality and is not at all about hating men, as there are many men activists in the feminist community doing a lot for both men’s and women’s rights.

Think of it like politics. And extremist alt-right person who loves trump and spews racist rhetoric is not representative of what republicans believe. Same as how Al queda is a violent extreme and not representative of Muslims at all.

Feminist does not equal man hater.

Man haters who identify as feminists are not representative of actual feminist ideologies.

This is an important distinction because most feminists do not hate men at all and are more like the friend you described in your post. By painting feminists as man haters, it causes red pill people to believe all the women who identify as feminist hate men which is very very far from the truth. Also, they then do not understand that men can be feminists, which is beneficial to both mens and womens issues.

ComebackDaddy · 2022-10-03T11:24:38+00:00

Personally my views as an equal opportunity etc person on feminism is that equality actually comes from math specifically equation solving and the rule of what you do for one side you do to another.

When you apply this rule to society and groups of people within it’s what you do for one you do for another.

Even if you don’t like disagree or hate the other or view the other person as pure evil.

And that is the catch.

We do not do for those people what we do for their victims thus creating more victims and those people as a result.

And here is why that is.

In psychology there is a vast mountain of literature that shows everyone desires Love acceptance snd belonging in themselves others and the environment they live in.

There’s an even greater body of literature and research (the one that’s most funded as well) that shows the extreme people in society who don’t get this (dark triad mainly psychopaths who’ve deleted; sa, commuted other vile acts) will have that need turn into entitlement (narcacism) control (machivelusnism) and violence vengeance pain upon the society it shuns. (Psycho/sociopathy)

The underlining notion here is if these people don’t even care about themselves than why would they care about others if the others themselves don’t care.

Yet these people are also the result of most high levels of pain and suffering in the world to other people.

Thus until a movement comes along that treats everyone including are society pyromaniacs equal I will not be apart of it because it’s only being equal to an extent.

The extent of which serves you and not the extent to which you need to meet your goals.

And I am for helping everyone achieve that cause I know if I help a person who know one helps they may eventually learn to help themselves healthily and thus treat others that way.

I am not the only person who views things this, way especially in the field of psychology (though I am currently one of the rare students who do) as many people in psychology want and hope for all in society to do better and thus work on doing that.

gretalnothing · 2022-10-03T22:36:33+00:00

I honestly stay away from labels because once you label yourself, you have to commit fully to any identity that you create and I just don't like that. Don't get me wrong, I find feminist issues valid, I just don't say I'm anything specific but I'll talk about issues as they come up rather than say I'm something.

The funniest thing about it is that I'll often get into debates where I've both been called a feminist in a derogatory way and an anti feminist by the same fashion, I often don't correct people.

2020mademejoinreddit · 2022-10-03T12:52:39+00:00

I personally don't think feminism is about equality. I think it's about women's rights. Period.

It started when women wanted the right to vote and wanted the financial independence. The history is out there for anyone wanting to confirm that.

If it was about equality among all and equal opportunity, it'd be called Egalitarianism.

What most of them are aiming for is "equity". Which is absolutely toxic. You don't get a free ride just because you're born a certain way. That's not equal opportunity.

After all, even billionaires do questionable things to become billionaires and don't just take handouts (they do after they become billionaires, from governments).

2022-10-03T21:25:39+00:00

Very insightful, thank you! I made similar experiences (the labels conflicting despite having similar views thing) which resulted in me personally rejecting almost all labels. I definetly can be sorted into certain labels, but I'm gonna let people find out for themselves when talking to me.

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incredulitor · 2022-10-03T23:45:47+00:00

It sounds like you arrived at a place where it's reasonably comfortable to continue to talk to this friend of yours and benefit from the diversity of her views as well as the general connection, while continues to be uncomfortable or not to sit right that she identifies strongly with the label "feminist". Is that right so far?

Then with the not-sitting-right: can you say more about whether it bothers you that she personally doesn't distance herself from man-hating feminists? That feminism in general doesn't? Some combination of both?

Title	An Interesting Story
Author	Danny-Ost
Upvotes	7
Comments	91
Date	October 3, 2022 10:53 AM UTC (2 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/ExRedPill
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/exredpill/comments/xug49l/an_interesting_story/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/ExRedPill/an-interesting-story.1135280 https://theredarchive.com/post/1135280