PSA: The difference between being misogynistic and criticizing Feminism.

MelissaMiranti · 2025-01-06T22:01:10+00:00

I want men and women and nonbinary people of all kinds to have the same rights. I do not want anyone, and yes, this includes women, to suffer from any negative effects for the gender they identify with. If feminists wanted this same thing, then I would have common cause with them.

But I don't.

If I were a misogynist, I wouldn't want women to have the same rights. I would want women to have their own separate spaces and separate lists of rights and responsibilities. I would want women not to be punished when they commit crimes, and I would want special laws to protect them over anyone else. I would want to promote the idea that throughout history, women have had no power and no agency, that there has been and still is nothing but oppression and depression for them.

But I don't.

Because these are things feminists do, and I believe in women.

pwishall · 2025-01-06T22:33:33+00:00

There are plenty of valid, non-misogynist criticisms of modern feminism. It's too bad too many women automatically label just about all of it as misogynist as soon as they see it.

One example I see all over this site:

"Feminism is for and about women, if you want someone to work on men's issues then you need to do it yourselves." Anyone who says that can go fuck themselves.

TobiasWidower · 2025-01-07T02:45:27+00:00

If anything, this sub could probably be summed up for feminists with the clip of knuckles the echidna quiping to Amy Rose "You know, Amy, any time someone calls attention to the breaking of gender roles, it ultimately undermines the concept of gender equality by implying that this is an exception and not the status quo. Knuckles: What? Just because I'm a meathead doesn't mean I'm not a feminist.

Where the one big change up is that we here usually reject the rhetoric of modern feminists because most modern feminism is couched in language that blatantly perpetuates these harmful gender roles and discriminates against men and boys who are in no way responsible for modern society. Things like a couple high schools in the US holding gender apology events where the boys are made to grovel and beg forgiveness for the oppression of women, when they're literal children.

If a woman wants to discuss gender Equality, I'm more than happy to, if a woman wants to lambast me for every negative perception of men she experienced, that's going to accomplish nothing

NonbinaryYolo · 2025-01-07T02:53:14+00:00

I think one problem you're going to face with your perspective is that sometimes feminists are talking about a form of "systemic misogyny" which is to say it's not about the validity of any individual action, but just the fact that it COULD negatively impact the societal perception of women is why it's called misogynistic.

I think analysis like yours are necessary, but but one thing I want to warn to be careful about. You can lose ground on your own positioning adopting feminist terms. It puts you in a spot where you're stuck arguing your perspective from the lens of their framework, and spreading their ideals.

And sorry! I'm not saying that to dismiss your post, or anything, just because it's something I think about.

CeleryMan20 · 2025-01-07T16:21:09+00:00

I commented on AskFeminists that feminism is not monolithic the same as “manosphere” isn’t, with red-pill, MGTOW, men’s rights, etc. having discernibly different core beliefs (albeit with much overlap). And the answer from the mod, instead of being “how do those differ?”, was basically “nun uh, they are all misogynistic reactionaries!”.

I won’t deny there is a strong thread of negative generalisations about women in many of those groups (redpillers, blackpill, MGTOW, etc.) But tarring all men’s advocates with the “misogynist” brush seems like, at best, a refusal to listen, or at worst, a calculated tactic to undermine.

At least I’m curious about the stances taken by the various sides. But for online feminists, like certain conservative and religious groups, it seems to be all about “if you’re not with us you’re against us”. They want adherents to be one of them, because the other side is evil. If you join the “good” minority in their fight against the ever-present “evil”, then you get to feel heroic and special. And being able to have good feelings about yourself motivates you to be a devotee of The Cause.

If you don’t agree with their jargon and unsupported assertions, then you are a Reactionary (eew, I feel so bolshie). If you try to ask what they are fighting for, you just get shouted down about what they are against. It would be easy for me to say that “women are irrational, they always go for the appeal to emotion”, but that tactic isn’t only used by women, it’s used by plenty of male-run cults.

A common anti-feminist criticism of feminism is that they are man-haters and want female supremacy rather than equality. Yet they refuse to see that as the mirror image of how feminists portray the status quo supposedly being misogyny and male dominance.

Apologies if I’ve veered to far from the theme of the original post. I guess what I’m aiming at is that conflating misogyny with disagreement or critique can be seen as a combat tactic (possibly subconscious/unintentional, not necessarily planned).

darkskydancing · 2025-01-07T21:28:33+00:00

I like this idea. A lot of so called “feminists” want to have their cake and eat it too by insulting short men, denying male SA victims especially when the perpetrator is female, using men for money in dating, limiting men’s gender expression, and expecting 24/7 stoicism out of their boyfriends and husbands. Many aspects of gender equality force these women to take an active role in their lives, so they take the easy way out and give the minority of chauvinistic men a ton of ammo. It’s getting harder and harder to defend feminism in its modern iteration, which saddens me because there are still real, widespread issues like abortion and DV. Fixing men’s issues not only prevents gender based discrimination but it also helps everyone.

2025-01-07T05:59:48+00:00

The problem with your approach is that you would be dismantling feminism entirely by using your logic. The movement is pretty much entirely based on assumptions. One primary issue with feminism is that it wants to be freed from everything, but doesn't allow everyone else that same position. It argues that you're the oppressor and oppressed at the same time, but makes no sense. Somehow as the oppressor, I cannot free myself.

I could talk hours about this, but it all boils down to that the ideology is entirely flawed.

BandageBandolier · 2025-01-07T03:17:09+00:00

Hell, I'd go even further and start educating that critique is entirely separate from hatred anyway.

People here might critique feminism, that's all well and good, nobody is above critique.

The ones who have suffered from SA or other abuses and had feminists actively exacerbate their suffering by blocking them from support they rightfully deserve, they might even hate feminism, that's not ideal but I can sympathise with their grievances and understand that hurt people are going to have human imperfections. Most importantly it's tolerable because feminism is an ideology and a choice, I don't think it's unforgivable to hate ideologies that cause suffering, and it's more forgivable the greater the suffering caused. Again not ideal, just because hatred can cloud judgement, but not something that needs to be stamped out.

Some people may even critique population trends in women even outside of explicitly feminist ideas. For example a lot of data has shown college educated women on average posses much stronger gender preferences and biases that rightfully should be called sexist beliefs than college educated men. That's a real problem that deserves discussion, as long as it remains in the realm of critiquing population trends and not making assumptions about individuals that's also fine. We all should all be willing to acknowledge that there could potentially be issues about ourselves that need to be solved to reach an ideal society, and again, nobody is above critique.

And finally, some people might actually hate all women, and that's unacceptable. Even if they did have legitimate grievances against a large number of individuals who happen to be women, being a woman is not a choice and no woman should share the blame for simply being a woman.

SureCartographer200 · 2025-01-07T02:12:15+00:00

This is pretty valid

Local-Willingness784 · 2025-01-09T00:44:34+00:00

but when push comes to shove, what counts as misogyny? isn't it very subjective and heavily dependant on what whatever some random individual woman believes or feels?

SvitlanaLeo · 2025-01-07T08:20:35+00:00

Identifying any criticism of feminism with misogyny is like identifying any criticism of Zionism with antisemitism.

roankr · 2025-01-07T06:37:14+00:00

Random thought I just had when reading the title.

Could there be parallels to how being anti-zionist is often considered to being an anti-semite?

Zionism came from a desire for a nationstate for Judaism. It came to this conclusion through its search for emancipation from what are known atrocities against the Jewish people.

Maybe something for someone else to dig deeper into as I have sparse knowledge to further improve on this thought.

eli_ashe · 2025-01-08T03:18:36+00:00

its either:

a) trolls and bots saying dumb shite to stir the pot in the wrong direction.

b) people who are simply misandrists, who view any criticism of feminism or advocacy for men as being misogynistic.

there arent really any other serious reasons for folks in the femosphere to be making the claims they do regarding male advocacy.

they might cloak it with some poorly construed theory, e.g. the bs lines that pretend there is no such thing as oppression or harm done to men, etc.... but ultimately it boils down to either a or b.

it isnt that difficult to take other peoples issues seriously, it just isnt.

NonbinaryYolo · 2025-01-07T03:04:12+00:00

I... actually think it's kind of impossible to confront men's issues without being misogynistic. To combat the victim/offender gender dimorphism, women need to recieve criticism. To fully acknowledge the 1 in 3 men facing domestic abuse, we also have to acknowledge the women perpetrating that abuse.

Title	PSA: The difference between being misogynistic and criticizing Feminism.
Author	vegetables-10000
Upvotes	118
Comments	53
Date	January 6, 2025 1:08 AM UTC (1 year ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/1humtlk/psa_the_difference_between_being_misogynistic_and/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/psa-the-difference-between-being-misogynistic-and.1540511 https://theredarchive.com/post/1540511

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