"It's not that simple." but actually it is that simple..

WolfGuy801 · 2021-11-17T15:42:09+00:00

 #anti-mrm messages on other parts of reddit...

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I remember one time, a woman walks up to her gf seated beside me at work, and exclaimed something about "don't you just love my shirt?"

It was an Atari shirt, I love Atari.

I (BIG MISTAKE) said "That's a cool shirt!". Later that day I get called into HR. Because that shirt contained the womans breasts under it. I was [accused of] staring at her breasts. I argued that I couldn't see them, because of the shirt, even if I wanted to, because I cannot see through shirts. They thought I was crazy. I thought they were crazy for claiming I was staring at someone's tits, who just basically said "look at my shirt, aint it great?"

As you can probably guess, I had to sign a document indicating that I wouldn't stare at womens breasts. FML. I quit that job pretty soon after that.

Also, when a woman actually does harass a man: that is always ignored, or just shrugged off. We get shredded for doing nothing, they get away with doing actual things.

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I haven’t said anything about teaching your daughter that all men are inherently evil. I’m just saying that if you allow your daughter to think that it’s extremely unlikely that all men she meets will only have good, not-sexually-charged intentions, something bad will happen. I wish that wasn’t the case, I wish it was different, but look at what kind of porn is popular globally; barely legal teens, gagging, gaping, crying, slapping, choking, rough, struggling…this isn’t weird, niche, uncommon stuff, this is like normal porn content that millions of men regularly consume frequently. This is what men want to do to women. Not all, but lots. There’s been plenty of stories about women being raped and murdered and tonnes of men searching video footage of it on porn sites immediately. It isn’t just the weird degenerate men in the corners of the world, it’s, like…normal dudes lol. This isn’t an “all men are evil” thing, this is a “you’re very likely to encounter men who are into everything I listed above and you can’t always tell right away” thing.

[–]maxlvb 7 points8 points9 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

IOW...

When a non existant enemy has no face, you're saying we need to invent one to train women/girls to be wary of men/boys...

Next you'll be saying that all men and boys over a certain age need to have a 6pm to 7am curfew of not leaving their homes imposed on them just because women/girls might be frightened about men/boys walking down the street behind them at night.

Or that all boys in schools need to stand up in front of all girls and apologise for just being boys...

And before you say this is BS, both have happened in 2021. In the UK huge numbers of feminists right up to a senior member of the UK government demanded that all men/boys in the UK had a curfew imposed on them simply because ONE man raped and killed ONE woman...

And in Australia all the boys in an elite high school were made to stand up in front of the whole school and apologise to all the girls for simply being boys.

This is what you're saying we need to teach our daughters....

With men, if there’s a problem people like you blame all men for the individual mans bad behaviour. If it’s a female issue you demand society has to overcome it.
The horror of feminism is that it created a whole class called “The Victim Class”. It is not real. It can’t be cured, as long as it defines women as the perpetual victim of men.

“Only a minority of feminists actually want to kill all men”- And? Only a minority of men actually rape. Therefore women shouldn’t be scared of men. Do you now see how sexist your logic is to claim they should be?

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Picture this: horny 12 year old finds porn for the first time. Front page shows rough crying rapey porn. Kid’s first impression of sex/porn. Is horny, so masturbated to it bc it’s the first vid they find. Begins conditioning their brain to respond to those front page videos by being aroused. Results in girls being aroused by being treated that way, and boys being aroused by treating women that way. This whole gen z being obsessed with “daddy dom” shit isn’t just random, it’s absolutely influenced by the front page porn kids start consuming like as soon as they can find porn. I had the epiphany I’d trained my brain to like the terrible stuff happening to women after years of watching porn. Heard the same from other girls. Also, while it’s fucked, it’s objectively less harmful for women to be super into being treated roughly than it is for men to treat others roughly, so even if more women search rape porn than men, the men who are into that are more likely to do something bad to another person. The women who want to be treated that way will just let people do that to them privately.

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[–]Enzi42 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

I’m not the person you asked to respond but I am someone who has read this comment chain and been pretty irritated/disgusted at the way you talk about men and then resort to sarcastic attacks when challenged.

I am genuinely curious about something though, assuming that you aren’t trolling:

Multiple times you have asked the men here to imagine the messages our hypothetical daughters would receive upon reading this and also asked us to conduct ourselves in a way that would be beneficial to them.

So, with that in mind I would ask you—what sort of message does your assertion that most men desire to dominate, humiliate and hurt women send to your hypothetical son?

Saying “women ruined the workplace” is not something I’d want a daughter to hear, but I’d argue many of your sentiments here are far worse for a boy to hear from his mother/father.

Of course plenty of parents (I would argue feminist ones in particular) don’t care what kind of hateful anti male messages their sons receive. But I’d hope you would at least give some thought to this since you brought up the idea of the impact on children.

TLDR: Do you think about how your son would be affected by anti male messages and ideology the way you ask us to think about a daughter?

[–]throwawayagain0262 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

[–]Enzi421 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–][deleted]1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Sure. Something I should mention is, in middle and high school, I knew a lot of boys who were into rough, humiliating, painful-for-women porn, hentai, finding leaked nudes of celebrities, etc. So I also can’t confidently say that I think it’s very unlikely a teenage boy will not ever be interested in weird, creepy, sexual shit. I think it’s fair to say that a lot of teenage boys, and men, look at girls and women and imagine compromising, degrading sexual scenarios. Not always, but also not never. So I agree that it’s harmful to teach teenage boys that “all men are evil and trash and want to rape women,” and while some corners of feminism seem to promote this, I think the general narrative is “time and time again we are shown that there are some men who want to do weird, not very nice sexual stuff to women” (look at porn, true crime, etc.), and so we need to be cautious when socializing boys. Women can turn out to be bad too, don’t get me wrong, but this conversation is specifically in response to men verbally or physically doing unwarranted sexual stuff toward women.

[–]Enzi421 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Well this conversation certainly took a very odd and different turn than I expected. It’s not your fault it’s just not where I expected this to lead.

Speaking as a man who was once a teenage boy, yes there are a lot of sexual scenarios I imagined in my mind. Some of them ranged from cringe worthy to outright weird (although they never involved rape).

I am aware of course that many such teenagers fantasies abound with much darker things than I could have imagined. And I’m going to say something controversial—there’s nothing wrong with that.

Filtering through a host of sexual scenarios in one’s mind, during those formative years, is how we learn what we like or don’t like, what we are attracted to and even who we are attracted to. It’s no accident many people realize they are gay in their teenage years.

I do agree that a certain amount of these boys will grow to become sadistic in their desires and preferences. That’s just a statement of fact. But even then I don’t entirely think that this is bad or evil in and if itself. There are ways to channel these “deviant” urges productively—look at BDSM and the people who flock to that lifestyle.

The problem is that an even smaller amount of those aforementioned boys will go on to actually harm women. Again I acknowledge this is true.

But I don’t think that policing or attempting to regulate the sexual development of boys is even close to the right answer practically or morally. Who gets to decide what is healthy sexuality? Who is in charge of programs to ensure this sexuality is properly developed? And how is deviation from this approved sexual nature punished?

No that brings up the specter of conversion therapy and elevates it to dystopian levels,

I think the only “right” response honestly is to just teach boys consent and sexual etiquette just as one would teach girls. Also teach girls that there are some men who could be dangerous due to the world being a dangerous place—I actually don’t have a problem with that in moderation.

As a boy I was taught to be careful around how I acted with girls I did not know because some of them could falsely accuse me of sexual harassment if there was any suspicion of impropriety and it came down to their reputation or mine. So I’ve never had a problem with “Shrodinger’s rapist”. I just don’t like when we take these common sense teachings and turn them into gender hatred or enforce double standards.

[–][deleted]1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I hear what you’re saying. The primary point I’d like to respond with is that, as a young girl discovering the Internet, and seeing all of this unfiltered, uncensored content and how many men consume it, comment on it, and support it, it’s really difficult not to feel a little uneasy, or to ignore the idea that there is a strong chance men are looking at you and imagining those things you see online happening to you. Then (while this is a hobby I actively choose to indulge in, and is likely a social circle that discusses this stuff more than normal), if you’re like me and very interested in true crime, you hear story after story of rape and murder and sexual torture from everyday men who are otherwise unsuspecting. I feel like men responding to #MeToo by saying that they are frustrated that women have the ability to accuse them of doing something sexually motivated and perverted ignores the fact that uncensored communities like the Internet are FILLED with men creating and circulating content of women being abused, humiliated, hurt, or fetishized for existing. Again, this is just my experience, and I would never in a million years falsely accuse a man (I think those people are vile), but rather than this being a man-hating movement, it’s a response to women being bombarded with the knowledge that men want to do weird sex stuff to them more then they want to do it to men. Even violent rape scenes in TV and movies are often made sexual, and there’s lots of nudity and sex in violent horror movies where women are murdered. It’s learning time and time again that, when left unchecked, men at least think about doing things that you don’t want done to you when they look at you. If I could confidently say “I don’t think a single man I’ve met has fantasized about gagging deepthroat or gaping anal or loli hentai or looked at me and imagined rough sex,” I’d feel differently about all of this, but unfortunately, I can’t say that. I know those are extreme examples, but I know they aren’t uncommon. Its a little scary especially when you’re a teen or preteen and know adult men picture this happening to you, even if they don’t talk about it.

[–]Enzi421 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

It took me a while to respond since I wanted to give some thought about this and be in a place where I can actually respond to individual points.

I can certainly understand and empathize with the internet opening a window into the minds of the opposing gender and finding things you really wish you hadn't.

While it certainly isn't violent sex or torturous fantasies, I can say that reading the dehumanizing language, self-righteous justifications for cruelty and generally anti-male ideology rampant on the internet changed how I viewed women.

It hasn't made me hate them by any stretch of the imagination but it has definitely reduced my viewpoint that we are somehow natural allies all pulling together for the same cause along with some other drastic alterations of my previous thinking. I certainly have wondered, more than once, if seemingly kind and normal women I'm interacting with either believes or consumes a lot of the hateful op-eds, twitter posts or media directed against men.

Now, I happened to be a young adult (mid-twenties) when this revelation occurred and I had been on the internet for a long time by this point. I'd imagine that discovering the uglier fantasies of men in one's preteens would have been more jarring since it comes with a whole lot of other revelations at once.

Anyway the point I'm making is sort of a repeat of what I said previously. I don't feel that women are unjustified for being cautious of strange men just as I don't really believe men are unjustified for being wary and taking means to protect themselves from potential life-ruining/ending false accusations. Everyone knows stories of rape and murder against women, and I have seen the fallout and chaos of false accusations in the lives of people I know.

The problem is when people take it too far, turn it into a campaign of hatred and go overboard...and since people can't seem to do anything in moderation, that's why this problem occurs again and again.

Speaking of which...

I feel like men responding to #MeToo by saying that they are frustrated that women have the ability to accuse them of doing something sexually motivated and perverted ignores the fact that uncensored communities like the Internet are FILLED with men creating and circulating content of women being abused, humiliated, hurt, or fetishized for existing.

I'm a little confused by this statement but I also had some things I wanted to say about it. First of all, #MeToo wasn't created because of gruesome and objectifying porn, it was made because of a hidden epidemic of real assaults and the failure to bring the perpetrators to justice. I'm...not really sure why you are equating that to violent pornography and men's inner thoughts?

That aside, the pushback against MeToo and the pushback against that is something I find interesting and incredibly frustrating. First of all, yes, MeToo has opened a gateway for a larger influx of false accusations. It's true and I feel we have every right to take measures to protect ourselves from that.

A lot of the flak men take for trying to protect themselves from the possibility of being accused seems to come in two distinct forms. The first is honestly a weird mirror-image of when men get irritated that a woman is being cautious around him and rages that he would never do anything dangerous, and he is being unfairly singled out.

In both cases (the woman trying not to get assaulted and the man trying to not get MeTooed) are trying to protect themselves. The angered party is putting their ego above the fear of the other person and seeing only their bruised feelings when the price of relaxing one's guard can be devastating. I'd argue the solution is to communicate and try to understand where each member of the arrangement is coming from on a case-by-case basis.

Now...the second response from women towards cautious men is far less defensible and I think completely unjustifiable. The original article in this thread and the reddit thread linked in this OP is full of this.

Large changes bring about unintended consequences for everyone involved. In the case of MeToo the social landscape changed drastically and became a lot more fraught with potential danger where men are concerned. Women won a victory in terms of getting their plight of sexual harassment taken more seriously but at the cost of having to endure being looked at with a wariness that wasn't there before. It's somewhat of an exchange in a way, like winning a great fight but being injured a little in the process.

But some don't want to be "injured" for the sake of this victory. They feel that they are entitled to a flawless win where everything goes completely in their favor. The only changes to be made are on the men's side, because men were the wrong ones in the first place. Why should the victims be forced to make any sort of concessions or endure any hardships at all when carrying out their righteous mission?

The first type of resentment towards cautious men (feeling personally attacked when a man expresses fear about being falsely accused) is something that can be worked past with communication and open-mindendess. But the attitude I just described won't change because it's rooted in terminal self-righteousness and a refusal to budge in any way.

Anyway that's just my feelings on MeToo and false accusations. I had some more but I think I'm just kind of done for now. I'm sorry if it came off as a ramble since false accusations aren't an issue I think of a lot (I'm more concerned with the demonization of men in the media and the entitlement to our resources and labor). I guess it was a good exercise in stretching my mindset and a good civil conversation.

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[–]Angryasfk 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

Good. I’m glad we can agree about that. Part of the “different way” women do evil things is to slander others and get others to do evil things to the objects of their malice. Which is where false allegations, especially in the age of #metoo, the misuse of restraining orders and other forms of abuse come into it. I know for a fact that it’s much easier to get a restraining order (at least an interim one) than many seem to believe. You just need to say the right things and have an “oh I’m scared” disposition. This also debases the whole concept. Even worse are the frankly criminal lawyers who get their clients to take out these orders to improve their payout in divorces!

Yet feminists are totally unconcerned about this. To the point they condemn it even being mentioned as somehow “endangering women”! I know that in at least one case, a violence restraining order (an interim VRO) was awarded when the applicant admitted there was not only no history of violence (which the editorial in our main newspaper insisted was necessary to get one) but she admitted he’d never yelled at her or even raised his voice! If he hadn’t objected, it would have become a “final order” 3 weeks later. So it is clearly possible for such an order to be made with zero evidence of violence!

If feminists were “for real” about NOT hating men and only believing in equality they wouldn’t oppose examining how such orders are misused, and what can be done to stop vexatious orders (such as punishing those who make them), even if it’s to stop the orders that are needed being swamped vexatious ones. But no. Feminists instead are seeking to increase what can be done on the say so of a woman, up to the point of serious criminal conviction! This is what led to things like the Mark Pearson case, where he was prosecuted even though it was quite clear he could not have done what the woman claimed! But I see no concern from feminists about this case at all!

[–]throwawayagain0262 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

Have you ever stopped and asked yourself “Why do people believe women when they accuse men of rape or assault?” It’s because it isn’t far fetched. People wouldn’t believe those horrible shitty women who falsely accuse if it was completely unbelievable that a man would EVER rape a woman. Those who create false accusations are inarguably terrible, slimy, and purely evil. With that in mind, if we lived in a world where a woman said “He assaulted me!!!” and everybody could, in unison say “A man? Rape??? Have weird sexual desires toward a woman? Yeah right, that would literally never happen.” Can’t say that, can we. Lol. Men are creating this problem for themselves. Even if you’ve never raped anybody, there are a LOT of people who look like you and are part of your demographic that have, and continue to do so. Fight to make sure that it’s very unlikely that men sexualize violence, then nobody will have any reason to believe false accusations.

[–]Angryasfk1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You need to reread your comment. How about I told you to “fight to make your whole gender not go around and slander other people to destroy them and misuse legal means meant to protect those at genuine risk to cause hurt to someone or destroy them in divorce cases”. Feminists are outraged at the very suggestion. You can’t control other women any more than I can control other men. I certainly can’t control criminals. Do you think I secretly want my car stolen, or to be assaulted outside a pub or mugged on my way home from work, or have my house ransacked? Your argument essentially says these things only happen because I allow other men to do these things! That’s how ridiculous it is.

As a woman, I’m sure you don’t like it when some jaded poster comes on here declaring that all women are users, gold diggers, liars, manipulators, are entitled harpies and various other negative labels. Even if you’re aware that there are women who do this, is it really your fault that they do it? Are you really allowing them to do this? And then think of what you said above looks like from our perspective. The misuse of restraining orders and false allegations to gain advantage or smear is a bit different since feminists actively deny it’s an issue and try to prevent any real discussion of the issues, and actively try to increase what can be done on accusation alone.

[–][deleted]1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

It’s not just criminals that do bad things, there are plenty of men that do shitty stuff who are otherwise average dudes. In college, my friend had a guy follow her back to her dorm and wouldn’t leave until she kissed him. I knew another guy who explicitly talked about how he prefers naive, innocent, younger women because they’re easier to control. I went to a party once, and the host texted everybody asking them to leave before pulling out his dick and making me touch it. I have a family member who had a boyfriend that would choke and assault her, so she had to run away. I’m not just talking about the worst of the worst; I’m talking about men who have been poorly socialized and likely don’t think of women as human beings.

As for your generalization, I hear that generalization made all the time, and my response isn’t “I’m not one of those women so I need to try and prove why that’s all a lie.” I’ve met women like that, I know you’re not wrong. Not quite on topic, but if you think about it, the reason women ever became gold diggers, liars, and manipulators is because, since they couldn’t have jobs or bank accounts, they needed to do all of those things to extract resources. Those are still the bad/shitty women, but that’s why those tendencies developed. Men are physically stronger and were historically the only ones able to work, so that was how the shitty women expressed their evilness. While women can get jobs and bank accounts now, a demographic’s entire mentality doesn’t change over the course of a couple decades. So maybe it’s safe to say that evil men tend to wish to extract sex by force, whereas evil women wish to extract resources by manipulation?

[–]Angryasfk1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Why do you persist in that “women weren’t allowed to have jobs or bank accounts” nonsense? I mean seriously it’s so obviously untrue that women “weren’t allowed to work or have bank accounts” before the 60’s I’m amazed anyone has the gall or pure ignorance to say it.

Plenty of women worked, especially during the Second World War. Some companies/organisations had a policy to not employ married women (the railways in my state changed their policy on this because the general manager wanted to keep my mother as his secretary after she got married), but many (most?) did not. Women were more limited in the jobs they held, there were very few female engineers and far fewer female doctors and lawyers for example, but to say women weren’t allowed to work at all is so obviously false I can’t believe you feel comfortable posting it.

And as for bank accounts. I’m quite sure this comes from some contemporary woman looking at an old application form for a credit card and seeing a counter signature space for the husband, or something like that. And got confused because they’re used to a “bank card” meaning a key card for ATMs and EFTPOS. Bank accounts didn’t normally come with cards. A savings account used to have a passbook, literally a small book a bit like a passport. You’d go into the bank, and the teller would add up your deposit, or your withdrawal, and correct your balance, and stamp the value of the new amount (with the date) on the passbook. This lasted into the 90’s in some places and was how people did banking in the ‘60’s and before. There were no electronic transfers. People got paid either in cash (the armoured car bringing the payroll if the number of workers was large enough) or by cheque. All payments at the supermarket were in cash. Only a few regular customers were allowed to pay by cheque in most shops due to the risk the cheque would bounce. A very different world. Utterly alien to the experience of the average Tumblr feminist.

And here is one of my beefs with feminism. They start with what is true: women were much more restricted in the jobs they could have before the ‘60’s (although it was mostly social pressure) and often were paid less for the same role. They also had strong pressure to leave work when they became wives, and certainly mothers (this continued into the ‘70’s at least). But this isn’t enough for feminists. They have to exaggerate this out of all reality: women were forbidden to hold jobs; women weren’t allowed to have a bank account. It is utterly ridiculous to claim that a woman needed her husband’s “permission” simply to have a bank account after the passage of the Married Women’s Property Act. Credit cards are a loan, and in a world where most married women were housewives, the bank needed legal guarantees that the husband (mostly the prime earner) would be good for her debts. In many cases married couples (like my grandparents) had a joint account. So both parties would be required to agree to add a credit card to that anyway. Women have had issues (and still do) but keep it real and in proportion.

[–][deleted]1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Angryasfk1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Good. The expectation was that women would marry the “right guy”, have children, take care of them and keep the house, and he’d earn the money. If she had to work, the implication was that he wasn’t earning enough to support his family and was “failing as a man”. I used to get that sort of thing from my grandmother.

That’s enough surely? Why make up garbage about women not being allowed to work at all. Single women worked, as did newly married women as the couple were establishing themselves. Even in the ‘50’s women made up a high proportion of teachers (a good proportion of them were married). They were virtually all nurses, most secretaries, a lot of receptionist and typists (I’m the days before wordprocessors many companies needed typing pools to generate their documents). It’s so blatantly untrue that women “weren’t allowed to work” it’s an affront that anyone would make the claim or be so ignorant as to believe it. And I’m shocked that a woman as intelligent as you could be suckered into this.

But this is the issue I have with feminism. It isn’t enough to say women were more restricted and there was an expectation that men would be in charge and women were to “help him”. They have to make up s#it about women being forbidden to work, and not allowed to have bank accounts! And this is from a time still well within living memory. Simply taking to a parent or grandparent should settle it. And yet it’s just taken for granted and gets taken for granted by feminists. What other garbage are they buying?

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Ted Bundy Ed Kemper Willy Pickton The Toolbox Killers The Golden State Killer Israel Keyes Luka Magnotta The Junko Furuta case Jeffrey Dahmer John Wayne Gacy Zodiac Killer Long Island Killer Charles Manson Richard Ramirez

While you’re right that there are a few women who have done these things too, I am 100% certain that you aren’t frequently worried about the women you meet being serial killers who want to rape and murder you. In fact, I bet you don’t ever even think about women serial killers except for when you want to prove to a feminist that women can do bad things, too. That’s the only time you ever think it’s worth mentioning them, is when you want to say “oh yeah well women are evil too, look at this handful of people in history.” Get a grip, you know deep down that the men you meet in the world are more likely, statistically, to have a desire to rape, assault, or otherwise harm people, specifically women and sometimes minors.

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There are women who murder and torture. I’ve given a couple of names to you.

Feminists are amazing. They live to claim women can do anything and everything that men can do, and do it even better! But are in absolute denial when it comes to evil crimes. There most certainly are women who murder in the most vile manner, and who sexually abuse. There are many more men who do this of course: and feminists love to make this an absolute - men do these things and not women. But when it comes to interest in engineering or physical science: oh no, it must be prejudice that fewer women do this - leading to massive discrimination against men in hiring. I’m tired of the double standard, and I’m tired of the flat out denial by feminists that it even exists. You love the “nurturing, gentle” stereotype when it suits you, but pretend you hate it when it doesn’t (like women in the military). And distain, or even hatred of men comes through time and again, yet you constantly shout “misogyny”. You won’t even acknowledge the extensive man hatred in your movement and that’s implicit in much of the activism. If you genuinely don’t hate us, can you at least see why we get that impression?

[–]throwawayagain0262 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

You might consider the idea that women haven’t contributed to engineering or physical sciences as much as men because they literally couldn’t have bank accounts until the 1960s at the earliest lol. There’s been a lot of time for men to make great strides in the world because women werent allowed to do anything but be homemakers until the mid 20th century. And that doesn’t just change overnight; you can’t expect an entire demographic to suddenly have the knowledge, drive, and understanding to suddenly navigate a system that they weren’t allowed to be a part of for centuries. It’s slowly but surely changing, give it time. Women should be and are in the military if men are, I don’t know what feminists you’re talking about but they sure as hell aren’t the normal ones in real life; I think you’ve pulled your definition of “feminist” from the ones that screech on the Internet and get made fun of in men’s right communities, not real people. And if you want me to believe that women are just as likely to be heinous as men, then I’ll believe you when a random woman comes up to me at the club and asks if my boyfriend chokes and slaps me during sex, or if a random homeless woman were to ask me for birthday sex when I was 16 walking down the street, or if I were to listen to the newest episode of a true crime podcast and hear an episode about how an adult woman was discovered to have raped and murdered 5 seventeen year olds. When you have a daughter, you’ll know deep in your gut, whether you openly admit it or not, that she has 100% good reason to be skeptical of men before getting to know them. There are both women and men who exist in the world who have the innate desire to do bad, sexual things to other people, but there is an undeniably higher amount of men who are like this, and it’s not always possible to know which ones they are. You know it deep down, I know that you do; you’ve seen the porn that men watch, and you know it’s dehumanizing, humiliating, scary, and rough toward women. You’ve seen the front page videos that depict men slapping, choking, spitting on, gaggging, and gaping disturbingly young women. There’s a very thin veil hiding the (shockingly) high number of men who like that stuff. Not all men, but enough that it’s not always obvious which ones.

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[–]Angryasfk1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Cherry picked stories are still real stories.

And I’m not trying to condemn my old gf or her housemate. Merely pointing out that it’s clear women “objectify” - it isn’t true that female sexuality isn’t “visual”! But it is a major claim of a great many feminists that men “objectify” women and women do not do this to men.

Regarding the specific porn you speak of. I’ve never seen anything like that. And not only does it not appeal to me, it’s clear it appeals to twisted minds. But what proportion of porn is actually like that?

Also what do you call “statistically unlikely”? I was always taught that the scenario you speak of (a stranger breaking in and raping a woman in her home) is by far the least common type of rape. That in most cases the rapist is at least known to the victim. Mary Koss also includes things like “sex under the influence” and “morning after remorse” to beef up the numbers. Seriously one is too many. And rape has been second only to murder in the crime statutes for a very long time in terms of the seriousness of the offence. So let’s say 1% of women will be subject to such an attack in their lifetime. Is that really “likely”?

It’s far too common. But a woman has to be unlucky to be so assaulted.

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Awkward and “shy” guys turn out to be “malicious”? Well Ted Bundy (whom you brought up earlier) was anything but “awkward and shy”, but he was definitely malicious! Studs (or Chads if you prefer) are certainly oozing in confidence. But when they’ve had their way with a girl and move on, or she finds out she’s just part of a whole set he’s seeing at the same time, how are things seen then? Funnily enough men in general are blamed!

In my case, the label was pushed because this little group of “born agains” had a member who was interested in a girl I also liked. Her housemate was part of this Hillsong aligned group. At first they sought to slander me as being “gay”. But then they switched gear and accused me of being “creepy” and spreading tall tales about me. All girls doing this. And I was then slandered to others who weren’t part of this, who then saw every action I did as being “really creepy”! All shaped by slander from one woman.

I’ve seen circles of women do this all the time to other women, including those they call friend (to their faces anyway). And I’ve seen them do it to force women out of jobs they they’ve taking some set against, or feel “threatened by”. It’s at least as common as guys watching creep porn. Should we just see women as being malicious backstabbers and liars? And these are the women weaponised by #Metoo and the various policy changes.

I certainly stay away from women at work, and certainly won’t be alone with them and will not work closely with them if I have a choice. There’s more of those women around than guys who sexually assault women. If women are justified in being fearful of sexual assault or misconduct, surely men have good reason to be very wary of malicious accusations don’t you think?

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You claim it’s “the system” that has men rape, “be creeps” and the rest. As for restraining orders, the ever lower threshold of evidence for various crimes, the #Metoo witch-hunt. That is down to feminist activism! And feminists oppose ANY discussion of the misuse of this. A few years ago in Australia we had one of our Senators (a woman) seek to start an official enquiry into the misuse restraining orders and false allegations of violence and sexual assault to gain advantage in divorce settlements. Some former Family Court Judges confirmed that this is rampant. And who came out screaming blue murder to ensure no such official enquiry happened? The feminists. It was claimed such an investigation would “endanger women”, that it would somehow promote a “culture of violence” against them. And it worked. No enquiry was mounted!

When I see that feminist activists and pressure groups a) pushed for these mechanisms which weaponise these vicious people; b) oppose any investigation into this; c) declare that these systems are not misused and women “don’t do that sort of thing” and it’s not an issue to be concerned about; well then I do think feminists do have a significant responsibility in this don’t you?

[–]throwawayagain0262 -1 points0 points1 point 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I said this in another comment, but I think I struggle to understand why the ones who do no wrong are so offended by the idea that they’re part of a demographic that does do wrong, and not infrequently (if you follow true crime or watch porn, you’ll know that plenty of men do/want to do fucked up sexual shit to women, they aren’t just the few degenerates in the corner of the globe, look at Max Hardcore, which was super popular before he was banned). I’m a white person, and I don’t feel defensive or offended when racial minorities say “white people have and continue to do awful stuff to racial minorities.” Like, even though I haven’t personally done those awful things, it doesn’t change the fact that my demographic (white people), sometimes does do awful things. I’d rather spend my time trying to educate other white people and to do my best as a human being than to be offended and try to prove why I’m personally not a bad person. I’ve never once seen a video of a racial minority being angry about white people and felt angry and like I had to prove why I wasn’t part of the problem. I just don’t get it lol

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It’s not that simple though. I’ve been accused of being “creepy” without doing any of that. Women (in groups) have “b#tch sessions”, where one thing builds on another. I’ve actually seen it happen (referring to other women in the cases I’ve seen). In my case it started because one woman thought I was after her (I wasn’t) and another one made up a tale about me because she supported a colleague in pursuing her housemate, who I was interested in. Soon girls totally related to the situation, but involved with these women regarded me as “really creepy”. They saw what they were conditioned to see. And note this: I didn’t make any comments about being “hot”, touching in anyway at all, and so on. And as for this “looking up and down”, women do that all the time! They may be slightly less obvious about it, but I’ve noticed it.

One thing I’ve noticed with #Metoo is the lack of proportion which very rapidly crept into it. Hopefully it will mature into something that can differentiate between saying something “off” and virtual rape, or between bitchy comments about some guy someone’s got a grudge against and real actions. But we’re not there yet. And until we are, don’t be alone with a woman at work unless you’re really, REALLY sure of her.

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maybe it's time to start listening what your parents told you: don't walk alone at night

the Knights sleep at night

if you are alone take a cap

don't take risks, I have no second you.

or as my martial arts teacher and police officer says: as soon as you leave your house you are surrounded by enemy's

or from game of thrones: the night is dark and full of horrors

or the evil resides in the shadow, but at night there is nothing but shadows/there is no shadow

being cautious at night is natural and everybody should be afraid of the dark. most guys get assaulted/injured/killed at night. most women get raped from strangers at night.

no woman should be afraid to be sexually harassed at work. But the false accuses are rising. also accuses through misinterpreted communication. cautious men are not the problem. overly cautious men will make it to a problem. Also women who take advantage with their bodily assets and then after they got the position they wanted ram the dagger in his bag with a metoo claim will work against the course feminism wants to fight for.

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Ffs again with the daughter analogy do you have Nothing else constructive ? I agree till you said it's traditional masculine way. There was no need to say masculine there cuz for men it's not masculine it's just traditional way. Women did ruin the work place for men. Obviously women would feel the same way if men came into thier place and all kinds of new rules are being implied and they had to follow all of them cuz of them. In a different perspective imagine what it would be like if a company that is majorly women like in fashion industry 2 men started working there and all kinds of new rules like mandatory paid 2 hour overtime and being called to work on every weekend are being done cuz those two men have no issues with it and infact requested it cuz they wanna earn more and cuz they wanna climb the ladder faster.

[–]throwawayagain0262 -1 points0 points1 point 4 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

So what you’re saying is men coming into a female-dominated industry and implementing higher pay/being allowed to work overtime without penalty is the same as women coming into a male dominated workplace and saying “hey I’d love to feel respected and not sexualized plz”? The former sounds pretty great, I feel like you’re referencing the idea that women hate overtime and long hours (thus why they get paid less), which I always find funny bc I’ve worked in retail and the food industry and almost 90% of women i worked with worked 2 jobs, overtime, 2 weeks on no breaks etc, just doesn’t reflect in stats the same way working 8am-6:00pm at a corporate gig might. I don’t see the comparison. I’m getting “women should’ve stayed in the kitchen” vibes here. Very 1940s of you.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

Wtf ? Why are you adding your own ahit to what I said then acting like I said it ? It's open and quite known fact that women work wayy less hours and are forced to do way less overtime or give up thier weekend for company that how much men do. Overtime will be treated with penality ? Higher pay ? What are you talking about ? F out of here with you BS Please if this is how your gonna discuss with false and imaginary statement. It is common knowledge that men are more inclined to be more work orientated than women. Yes there are exceptions here and there but exception don't NULLIFY STEREOTYPES. you must be talking about some first world country like Germany or Norway or Netherlands where they treat employees like human and not in places like I donno rest of the world where employees are treated like nothing but slaves working in air conditioned office. Regards to the women who you have worked with what about men there ? Are men allowed to the option to not work night shifts ? And to always leave on time becuase of reasons like have to pick up thier kids or to go to thier kids school for event? Because I sure know many companies that allow women to do so and only women. Or were the men who you were working with are suffering from the same difficulties you faced ? If so there is no inequality or discrimination there. But many companies do let women work less time than men and by that I mean not threaten them by saying if you don't work overtime I cannot guarantee your promotion even though you have worked here for 3+ years.

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Have you seen the statistics about which spouse does all of the household chores, errands, grocery shopping, scheduling kids’ appointments, picking them up from school, etc.? Even with both women and men working full time nowadays, this responsibility still falls more on women because women are still perceived as homemakers even though they do full time work. In many instances, if wives/mothers didn’t schedule their kids’ haircuts, clean the house, buy the groceries, meal prep, it just wouldn’t happen. So it makes sense to me that they work less overtime. I can source you in this if you want.

If men want to take over household chores and leave work early while their wife works overtime, they should start taking that initiative.

And yes, at my places of work(retail, food service), women and men worked very similarly. I had one office job where my department manager was a woman who worked constantly without break, always overtime, and her husband would call her while she was at work when he was watching their kid to ask for advice on how to tend to the kid. Even while working, she was the primary homemaker and parent.

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[–]Angryasfk1 point 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Three meals per day, seven days a week? Sounds like the farmers wife in a period drama! Pouring corn flakes into a bowl is the most common form of preparing breakfast today.

And laundry itself isn’t the exhausting chore it was in earlier times. Middle class Americans (and this is mostly who feminists are whining about) typically have fully automatic washing machines (and dishwashers) and from all accounts I’ve been told, put the laundry straight into the dryer, don’t even hand it on a line! Few still live in the days of the copper, the wash tub, the scrubbing board and hanging it on some clothes horse near the fire to dry them in winter! And stats say that their man typically does do a significant part of that too, yet they also work longer hours in paid employment!

Feminists don’t care about them working longer hours. They just want them to get paid less for doing it, or give up their job for a “more deserving woman” (she’s female so she must be “more deserving”), and do equal amount of in-house domestic chores and still do the lions share of the outside chores. And you claim to be only interested in “equality”? I’m not sorry to say I don’t buy that.

I think feminists have an idealised idea of what men’s lives are like. And professional feminists seek to manipulate the data to try and make reality fit their fantasy. And also seem quite rooted in some stereotypical notion of the ‘50’s, and imagine this is the world today.

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All I can say is I think we’ve had very different life experiences. I think our ground zero must be so incomparable that this discussion will forever go in circles. I don’t think that men have some magic patriarchy shield that protects them from all of the harms in the world and that women/feminists are always the victims in every situation. I think men have it rough and plenty of them have a harder life than I do. I want to loop back around to the idea that I think the basis of most of women’s hardship has to do with things regarding sex and sexuality. Anything and everything to do with sex (sex work, sex crimes, reproductive rights, porn, workplace harassment) is primarily related to women. Not 100% of the time, but most of the time. Most of men’s hardship has to do with financial problems and their social status/how socially accepted they are. The root of your hardships depends a lot on your gender amongst other things, and I feel like this post and this sub in general do not acknowledge that from like age 12 onward, sex and sexualization and reproduction and everything in that sphere becomes, like, a big and defining part of women’s lives. Even if we don’t live in the 50s anymore, and women can have jobs and bank accounts and all of that, there is still a societal divide between how people interpret the genders, and how the genders interpret themselves. Women don’t have it worse than men in all spheres, I just want to drive home that in regards to sex and the private sphere and everything in that realm, there’s more weird stuff that happens to women, and women are not at an advantage in that regard. I’ll change my mind about this when grown men stop ogling 12 year olds who developed early. Just know that when you have a daughter, she will be hyper aware of how sexy or not sexy she is from a very young age onward, and will have older men talking to her and hitting on her. Old men will try to talk to her online, I 10000% guarantee it. My friend and I, just to see what happened, once made a fake tinder account and would start messaging men in their 40s and 50s and telling them we were 15 years old after we had matched (profile said 26 or something). You know what happened? Out of 22 men, 2 said they didn’t want to talk to us. The other 20 said they liked that we were 15 and wanted to keep us as their little secret. They’d initiate sexual conversations and want to come meet us. It was nearly impossible to find a man that age who didn’t want to fuck a 15 year old if he knew that no one would find out. I’ll change my mind about everything I’ve said if one day I can make a fake tinder account, say I’m 15, and have every single adult man turn me down immediately. Then I’ll change my mind about women being disadvantaged in the sexual sphere. To summarize, men are not inherently protected from all harm in the world, and don’t oppress women, but specifically regarding sex and sexualization and arousal, women are the primary demographic involved in that whole conversation, and are disadvantaged.

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I’m sorry that happened to you. Isn’t it fair to say that there are shitty women who falsely accuse AND shitty men who rape?

I think men who are falsely accused are victims, and I apologize for not supporting that sentiment as outwardly as I should have. I do think, though, that there is a shockingly high number of men out there who actually do rape, which then gives the #MeToo movement traction; saying that there is not a disturbingly high amount of sexually charged crime against women is just not true. #MeToo and feminism is in response to something that existed before it, those two things weren’t just invented because all women are psychos (though some people really are crazy pieces of shit). All I’m trying to get at is that men raping women is what led to this whole mess of a debacle to begin with. Across the globe, humiliating, dehumanizing, painful porn of barely legal teen girls is, like, insanely popular and normalized; men wanna do bad stuff to women, and lots of them who were poorly socialized actually do that bad stuff. It’s not fair that this has resulted in women being able to falsely accuse men, but it also isn’t fair that lots of men rape women and want to treat them like how they’re treated in porn.

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[–]HannibalsProtege 3 points4 points5 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

All I’m trying to get at is that men raping women is what led to this whole mess of a debacle to begin with.

All you're choosing to conflate is that the percentage of men who do commit rape are just as guilty as those who don't. This is the same shit that was done in the military when one person fucked up; it's inherently the fault of others "who knew," said transgression was going to conspire.

Across the globe, humiliating, dehumanizing, painful porn of barely legal teen girls is, like, insanely popular and normalized;

Believe it or not research done by the Kinsey institute, and PornHub found that women were more likely to search for hardcore porn 1.5x's more than men. And in other countries the legal age of consent varies, so throwing in barely legal girls doesn't help your argument.

Now if you'll excuse yourself from this group that'd be great.

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The whole “I haven’t personally done anything bad” ideology is the problem here. I’m a white person, and instead of saying “I’m not a racist so why do racial minorities think I’m evil,” I try to look at it as “there are tonnes of white people who have historically been absolutely horrible to racial minorities, and still are to this day, so I’d like to try and educate other white people to not be pieces of shit so that racialized groups have less of a reason to feel wary of white people.” No need to be defensive, just accepting I was born into a demographic that has done awful things to other people, and trying to work to make sure that my demographic gets better over time. We can’t choose which demographics we are born into, but it’s so important to acknowledge and learn about social systems that are deeply ingrained in our society.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

[–]throwawayagain0262 -1 points0 points1 point 4 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

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[–]throwawayagain0262 -1 points0 points1 point 4 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]BreakinLiberty2 points 4 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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I should've mentioned the word easily. singke parents or two men or two women can absolutely raise good children but it's definitely not easy and most of them fall unde exception category since we had numerous research done on this topic and it's a proven fact that we need both masculine and feminine traits among patients to properly and easily raise a child. I reiterate exceptions donot nullify stereotypes. A child can also grow up in a proper traditional household with good father and mother and still grow up twisted and harmful. But this is the exception here. It's much easier to deal with and raise children traditional way than to raise them any other way. I'm. It talking about deadbeat cheating father's or abusive cheating mother's here I'm talking about a stereotype parents which is probably the best settings a child can grow up in.

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[–]thealphateam 4 points5 points6 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]kapriece 19 points20 points21 points 4 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

In the military we were practicing this long before mE 2. As a superior you would often talk to females with another male present as a witness. I saw many colleagues get reduced in rank for talking to females alone and the allegations flying around. Back then when you talked to people outside the military about it they thought you were full of shit. After while it got to the point that when the fellas were talking and a female soldier came around the conversation would stop. Sometimes I got talked to about the hostile work environment and I would have to explain it. My CO often male would then go about their business. Evey now and then you'd get a high ranking female trying to force the guys to interact but it would fail. I did 22 years and I see nothing's changed as far as the Army but the female world outside is getting it's due.

[–]HannibalsProtege 6 points7 points8 points 4 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]ARedditorCalledQuest 7 points8 points9 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Mother-Key582 0 points1 point2 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

"It's not that simple." but actually it is that simple..

Comments

notallwomen Why do men keep avoiding all of the good, nice women and only interacting with the crazy ones…if they just stopped going for Staceys then maybe they’d see that not all women are evil…only Staceys falsely accuse and hurt men.

Title	"It's not that simple." but actually it is that simple..
Author	WolfGuy801
Upvotes	423
Comments	201
Date	November 17, 2021 3:42 PM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/qw20a6/its_not_that_simple_but_actually_it_is_that_simple/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/its-not-that-simple-but-actually-it-is-that-simple.1083631 https://theredarchive.com/post/1083631