Just wondering...

feedmecarrots · 2017-04-18T07:44:58+00:00

It probably is a Title IX violation. There is no equivalent male facility.

vzen · 2017-04-18T16:16:13+00:00

I ran a student group and lobbied a VP on this exact subject. This article from Kennesaw State touches on it.

First of all, it doesn't have to be a building. It could be a program, a department, or even just a club. The scale may be telling, but the way Title IX fits into this depends on more than just the area of the campus affected.

KSU has their Women's Resource center, so I posed the Title IX question to Bob Mattox of KSU with a couple of my posse. His answer had to do with staffing: Involving a campus in IPV prevention and counseling brings up a question of branding. While he did not say it directly, he insinuated that the political aspects of the center are what get it the funding and growth necessary to start (He didn't seem happy about politics mixing with branding). He promised to increase involvement in building a men's center, but I didn't see it happen. I graduated since and do not command the same clout that being a local student organization officer brought me.

That brings us to the actual services. You are wrong to say there are no resources for men, but to be fair, in comparison to women, it may as well be none. Men actually CAN get services in these buildings with "Women" on the front of it. It's just that those services are often not advertised, and may even come with caveats. Or they cheat by referring men to somewhere and then pretending that they helped.

The KSU example allowed for men to seek counseling in their Women's center. There were just limitations on how many sessions you could have and what programs are available in the event of a sexual assault, etc. The inequities are in women having aggregate services, such as privileged lines of communication to pair with anonymous reporting of sexual assault. So men and women get a baseline set of services, but women have extra resources to use.

So why is this not a Title IX violation? Because it boils down to how decision makers view the word "comparable." Title IX is about comparing programs, and so long as these programs meet some minimum standard indicating that they are all-inclusive, they seem to pass. Another example I found was in our self-defense courses, which had a similar dynamic. For Title IX purposes it appeared that so long as something for men EXISTED, it was fine so long as the program's managers could (find a way to) explain specialized aggregate services for women. Basically so long as you account for men, even if it means throwing them a small bone, you're good.

The justification for women's extra services is of course where you find the nasty sexism. Women-need-this-because-they-face-increased-threat-from-men in this space, etc, etc. Wrong or not, Title IX people who are sold on this idea believe that the services are comparable because men and women have access to the same kind of resource, and women only have what they have due to need, perceived or real.

This is one reason underpinning behind why you see programs, courses and buildings spun up in the name of women. Women predominating student bodies and holding cards in managing perception about people certainly helps.

But the blame can't all go on sexism. One of the reasons I struggled to lobby for symmetrical services is because the men I knew would benefit from these programs would NOT, and I mean NOT come forward and ask for it. It was like pulling teeth with a fucking wet wipe. I'd be lucky to get 5 men to indicate demand by talking to a department head, provost or VP. You have to indicate demand. That puts it on the campus' side to handle the situation.

Do these men stay behind because they would feel weak in asking? Fuck no, and anyone who thinks a need to be macho explains men can fuck off. Men stay behind because they would feel rude asking for things, fear being mistreated for asking for help, or just don't want to be a burden.

BE. A. BURDEN. You think hordes of women's advocates didn't dogpile the administration over having that building named after them?

To put it another way, the reason women's centers are not a Title IX violation is that no one believes that doing the work to bring male services to symmetry buys anyone anything, so what we have is good enough. The way to correct them on that is to get the fuck off Reddit, grab some buddies, and visit your campus Title IX coordinator or state ombudsman. And visit them, and visit them, and visit them, and visit them until they are fucking sick of seeing your faces and will chip the word "Women's" off of the building personally to make you stop.

Or, bring so many people that the campus would look terrible if they ignored you.

I wish I could say it's not a numbers game, but I promise you that good research and reasons won't make people do the work.

MajinSkull · 2017-04-17T23:36:33+00:00

Women also get all female gyms. That one always bothered me

cymrich · 2017-04-18T10:44:57+00:00

but women have WHOLE COLLEGE BUILDINGS dedicated to them...

Switz here, nothing like it here.

What the hell are those ? I mean what's the purpose of women student centers ? It's like building where men are not allowed ? I don't get it.

poorpersonality · 2017-04-19T03:54:28+00:00

If men were allowed to have own buildings, they would sit there in the dark, laugh fiendishly, and plan such things as giving everybody the right to vote.

MagicTampon · 2017-04-19T05:00:49+00:00

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Demondark56 · 2017-04-19T12:46:39+00:00

It probably is but we all know that it (Title 9) is enforced selectively. It's the same when they try to help boys in elementary school. They take it as a attack on girls. Some also look at helping boys as supporting the patriarchy.

cld8 · 2017-04-19T04:52:12+00:00

Most colleges now call them "gender resources center" or something like that. It's understood that they serve mostly women, but the title is neutral.

For example, here is Berkeley's. http://ejce.berkeley.edu/geneq As you can see, Men's Resources is last, but it's still there.

DemonDucklings · 2017-04-20T21:52:38+00:00

Because few men will use the men's centre. Again, that money is better spent on something more students will use.

A lot of universities have such high amounts of women because men are more likely to be accepted into the trades and be successful there, so they don't need to attend university to make a living.

Again, there are no men's centres because the small amount of need does not justify the large cost, even though men deserve to have the world handed to them on a silver platter, rather than simply striving for equality.

I'm going to use my university as an example, because I have some of the statistics for it. Let's say we have the funding to make another campus improvement this year: renewing the ancient science building, or building a men's centre. For simplicity's sake, we're going to assume they share the same cost (even though the science building would likely be cheaper, because there's already space to build an extension, while the campus would need to purchase more land to build a men's centre).

About 33% of the students are male, and 27% of the students are in the science programs (we'll exclude the non-science students that would also be using the science building to get their science credits, also for simplicity's sake). In the average Canadian male's university career, about 7% of them are victims of sexual violence. Not all of them will use a men's centre (just as not all female victims use women's centres), but some non-victims also might, because of domestic violence, abuse, and whatever other reasons they may have. Considering this, around 10% of the male population would probably be using the men's centre. This means that the men's centre would be used by about 3.3% of the student population, while the science building will be used by more that 27%.

Now you tell me, which project do you think they should find first?

TheArabianKnightMC · 2017-04-19T18:40:32+00:00

I got (somewhat) lucky. Mine is for diverse students and women, but they always stress how it's for everyone. I know a few males who have gone and have had no issues.

breezeblock87 · 2017-04-21T01:08:13+00:00

is there an appropriate place for an outsider to ask questions about the mens' rights movement? *stumbled on this sub randomly---intrigued and confused.

handklap · 2017-04-21T12:06:15+00:00

The way they get around this is by saying they're "open to everyone, men and women alike".

UDT22 · 2017-04-22T05:23:47+00:00

I really don't know, but if I had to guess, I'd say it was a case of double standards. I know feminists will only be happy when the number of straight white men in college becomes 0% But then who will they blame for rape culture?

Jikookieyeou · 2017-04-23T18:48:24+00:00

I am also an outsider of the Men's Rights Movement. I am confused to whether you want to advocate for men's rights or bash feminists. Do you believe in equality for the sexes? Are MRAs anti-feminist? How would you propose to fix society? I do not mean to sound rude but a lot of what I see is hate and not constructive criticisms.

DemonDucklings · 2017-04-19T03:10:16+00:00

The reason they have women's centres and not men's centres is just because of demand, rather than gender equality. More women need them than men, and it doesn't make sense to have a men's centre at a school when only a handful will need it. However, you are right about proposing violationX centres in order to be inclusive of everyone who is raped, abused, etc. but they do already have those.

Just wondering...

Comments

1 in 5 LOL

Title	Just wondering...
Author	TyrionTarg
Upvotes	142
Comments	100
Date	April 17, 2017 11:29 PM UTC (9 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/65z71l/just_wondering/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/just-wondering.925463 https://theredarchive.com/post/925463

The 1 in 4 Meme Vs Rape And Sexual Assault Among College-Age Females, 1995-2013
The rate of rape and sexual assault was 1.2 times higher for nonstudents (7.6 per 1,000) than for students (6.1 per 1,000)
The 1 in 4 Meme, created by Ms Magazine and Mary Koss is not supported by Government Data which gives a base rate 40 times smaller.
It so not 1 in 4 but 1 in 163
Sofi Sinozich, Lynn Langton, Ph.D., *Rape And Sexual Assault Among College-Age Females, 1995-2013, Bureau of Justice Statistics, December 11, 2014, NCJ 248471