Some comments/questions concerning MRM.

yourfaceyourass · 2012-08-19T20:09:28+00:00

Do you believe that men and woman face an equal amount of sexual assault and domestic violence?

That's what the statistical data says, not a belief.

Sebatron · 2012-08-19T20:51:25+00:00

Do you believe that men and woman face an equal amount of sexual assault and domestic violence?

I think that they each face a roughly equal amount. I would need statistics published in peer-reviewed journals in the last two years to say who faces more.

Do you believe that when a man gets a woman pregnant that he should have some legal authority on whether she takes the pregnancy to full term or not?

No I do not but I do think he should have an opt-out option available to him and only available in the abortion window.

If a woman does take the pregnancy to full term and the man isn't involved in either her's or the child's life, do you believe that he is of no obligation to provide financial support to the mother?

Only if he opted out.

If MRM is about abolishing double standards, what possible explanation can you give for having the mother take on the entire financial and actual care of a child?

Please refer to my [previous] two responses.

Do you believe that historically woman have had a lower standing then men in western society?

Yes. Mainly in [...] restriction[s in the] economic and political options department.

Do you believe that woman have a lower standing then men in many parts of the world?

In the year 2012 (and if you don't include the Western world), yes.

Isparian · 2012-08-19T20:21:13+00:00

Issues raised that I agreed with. Genital mutilation, I feel that this issue can be argued far more effectively as an issue of consent, regardless of the victim's sex. The infant cannot consent to the lifelong alterations to their anatomy that are unnecessary for their immediate survival and well being.

Custody. I'll admit I am not an expert on these laws and can only provide personal anecdotes about when the laws/courts did provide children with the most optimal situation regarding custody. If there is in fact any hurdles in the way for children to have the best living arrangement possible then the laws should be argued and changed based on what is best for the children.

Woman not being able to consent to sex when drunk. You take responsibility for your actions following the ingestion of a mind altering substance, otherwise no one would be guilty of DUIs. It should have to be proven in court that the sexual encounter was coerced via date rape drugs, victim being passed out during the act, etc.

cthulufunk · 2012-08-19T20:48:24+00:00

I already feel like you're looking for an argument or debate rather than some simple information. We see posts like this every few days and it always feels to me like the poster believes that we can be reasoned into seeing that MR is wrong. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

Do you believe that men and woman face an equal amount of sexual assault and domestic violence?

My gut tells me yes, but the fact is that we have very little real data on this. Men are often too ashamed to tell the truth or don't actually see DV as DV because there's not a lot of physical damage. Women sometimes take it to far, for example a man pushing a woman away when she's in his face is not DV, but a lot of people disagree with that.

Do you believe that when a man gets a woman pregnant that he should have some legal authority on whether she takes the pregnancy to full term or not?

No, but I think he should be able to opt out of fatherhood at a point early in the pregnancy.

If a woman does take the pregnancy to full term and the man isn't involved in either her's or the child's life, do you believe that he is of no obligation to provide financial support to the mother?

Yes.

If MRM is about abolishing double standards, what possible explanation can you give for having the mother take on the entire financial and actual care of a child?

We live in a world that has many different options of birth control for women. After pregnancy, there's the option of abortion and adoption. A woman does not have to be a mother if she doesn't want to. If a man doesn't want to be a father, a woman has a multitude of options at her fingertips so it's completely possible for her to make a decision without him.

Do you believe that historically woman have had a lower standing then men in western society?

In general, no. They've had a different standing than men.

Do you believe that woman have a lower standing then men in many parts of the world?

Yes.

Legolas-the-elf · 2012-08-19T22:10:49+00:00

I will be respectful in how I ask my questions

what possible explanation can you give

If you are trying to be respectful, expressing incredulity in this way is not a good idea.

rightsbot · 2012-08-19T19:48:18+00:00

Post text automatically copied here. (Why?) (Report a problem.)

OuiCrudites · 2012-08-19T20:24:44+00:00

"Do you believe that men and woman face an equal amount of sexual assault and domestic violence?"

This is a really hard question because it is really broad and the statistics are skewed on purpose. (For instance, female-on-male rape is not classified as rape by law enforcement) Statistically, domestic violence is often reciprocal, more men are raped than women in the US, and women are (per capita) in the most danger of physical abuse in lesbian relationships.

"Do you believe that when a man gets a woman pregnant that he should have some legal authority on whether she takes the pregnancy to full term or not?"

He should not be able to force her to carry, or abort, the child but after baby is born he should have the right to renounce paternity responsibilities, just as she does.

"If a woman does take the pregnancy to full term and the man isn't involved in either her's or the child's life, do you believe that he is of no obligation to provide financial support to the mother?"

Again, men should have the choice of renouncing parenting responsibilities.

"If MRM is about abolishing double standards, what possible explanation can you give for having the mother take on the entire financial and actual care of a child?"

Not sure I understand this question. There is a double standard in favor of women right now, given that once she conceives she is the sole decision maker from then on as to what happens with the baby.

"Do you believe that historically woman have had a lower standing then men in western society?"

The highest men had a higher standing then both men and women. But the lowest woman had higher standing than the lowest men.

"Do you believe that woman have a lower standing then men in many parts of the world?"

Yes

misandry_doesnt_real · 2012-08-19T21:47:52+00:00

Do you believe that men and woman face an equal amount of sexual assault and domestic violence?

If we're counting prisons, no. Men face more sexual assault. I personally believe that men may face more domestic violence than we're led to believe by statistics (which in my country Canada prove that men and women suffer equal amounts of violence across the board and in the United States proves that women instigate DV more) because of the shame men feel when being abused and the lack of punishment for women lying about abuse, but I don't have any proof of that so it stays a personal belief.

Do you believe that when a man gets a woman pregnant that he should have some legal authority on whether she takes the pregnancy to full term or not?

No. Her body, her choice.

If a woman does take the pregnancy to full term and the man isn't involved in either her's or the child's life, do you believe that he is of no obligation to provide financial support to the mother?

No, he has no such obligation. Her body, her responsibility.

If MRM is about abolishing double standards, what possible explanation can you give for having the mother take on the entire financial and actual care of a child?

The MRM is very supportive of single fathers. The double standard exists within the family court system, where men have to fight to prove they aren't unfit and women can be meth-addled homeless criminals and still get custody if they claim (and even fail to prove) abuse.

Do you believe that historically woman have had a lower standing then men in western society? Do you believe that woman have a lower standing then men in many parts of the world?

I think that women have had a different standing. One way of looking at it is a lower standing, and I agree that women had many social restrictions on them that should not exist and still do. However, saying that is not mutually exclusive with the concept that men have faced innumerable problems.

I see from your username that you are a dirty commie (don't worry, I am too). How do you reconcile the notion of the patriarchy with your beliefs? How do you react when feminists say that working class men were privileged because they were "allowed" to enslave themselves to the bourgeoisie?

JockeVXO · 2012-08-19T22:25:06+00:00

Hi, leftcommie

Do you believe that men and woman face an equal amount of sexual assault and domestic violence?

I don't think it's impossible that this is the case, but it could also be that men face more sexual assault and DV or that women face more.

Do you believe that when a man gets a woman pregnant that he should have some legal authority on whether she takes the pregnancy to full term or not?

I think she should ask him what he wants and maybe take his feelings into account, but ultimately the decision must lie with her. So, no.

If a woman does take the pregnancy to full term and the man isn't involved in either her's or the child's life, do you believe that he is of no obligation to provide financial support to the mother?

Correct, if he did not consent to father the child, he should not be obligated to provide for either it or the mother.

If MRM is about abolishing double standards, what possible explanation can you give for having the mother take on the entire financial and actual care of a child?

Because she has all the rights, so she must bear the responsibilities. If she doesn't want that, she can abort it.

Do you believe that historically woman have had a lower standing then men in western society?

Overall, no. Women have always had more protection and held certain privileges that put them above men, likewise it used to be the case that men had more authority and certain privileges that put them above women. It was somewhat equitable for the most part.

Do you believe that woman have a lower standing then men in many parts of the world?

Overall, no. For the same reasons as stated above.

Question: Are you a communist? ;) (Not American, and don't suffer from the red scare, my parents are both communist-leaning socialists and I don't adhere to any specific ideology) Just curious.

its-me-again · 2012-08-20T02:45:28+00:00

Do you believe that men and woman face an equal amount of sexual assault and domestic violence?

Yes, often women instigate. Women often go unpunished. There is biased in the legal system and social policy when it comes to F>M domestic violence and sexual assault.

Do you believe that when a man gets a woman pregnant that he should have some legal authority on whether she takes the pregnancy to full term or not?

Legally it can not happen, but morally she should.

If a woman does take the pregnancy to full term and the man isn't involved in either her's or the child's life, do you believe that he is of no obligation to provide financial support to the mother?

Financial support belongs to the child. Mother cannot negotiate this. So he has an obligation to support his child. Father should have an equal oppurtunity for custody.

If MRM is about abolishing double standards, what possible explanation can you give for having the mother take on the entire financial and actual care of a child?

None, care of a child should be shared. I am opposed to financial abortion. more on this below (later)

Do you believe that historically woman have had a lower standing then men in western society? Do you believe that woman have a lower standing then men in many parts of the world?

Basically when a women has restrictions she also has protections. In cultures where women have low standings, they have low responsibilities, so it evens out. like an indoor cat compared to an outdoor cat. An indoor cat has restrictions, but also is not responsible for catching their own food, they have protection, etc. An outdoor cat has total freedom, but they must rely on themselves to survive.

ThePigman · 2012-08-20T02:47:32+00:00

A respectful troll is still a troll. Nice try, though.

Curebores · 2012-08-19T20:03:09+00:00

Do you believe that men and woman face an equal amount of sexual assault and domestic violence?

We don't know enough to say equal (Lack of reporting is an issue) but I would say they face comparable amounts.

Do you believe that when a man gets a woman pregnant that he should have some legal authority on whether she takes the pregnancy to full term or not?

This is a divisive issue so not all MRAs will agree with me. I think that a woman has sole rights over things that happen to her body, so if she wants to abort that is her choice. After the baby is born however it becomes the responsibility of BOTH parents and both have equal rights in that regard.

If a woman does take the pregnancy to full term and the man isn't involved in either her's or the child's life, do you believe that he is of no obligation to provide financial support to the mother?

Hmmm... tough question. My initial answer would be that if the mother knew that the father wasn't available to help support it it is now her responsibility to either support it on her own, find someone who is willing to help her support it, abort the child or put the child up for adoption. That answer is up for debate though.

If MRM is about abolishing double standards, what possible explanation can you give for having the mother take on the entire financial and actual care of a child?

The father has no rights in whether he keep the child, the mother has every right on whether she keeps the child. Rights = responsibilities. Again, up for debate.

Do you believe that historically woman have had a lower standing then men in western society?

The answer to that is complicated. On the one hand they were the pampered few, on the other they had limited direct say in the running of things outside the household. Though it's not like some didn't rule through their husband.

Do you believe that woman have a lower standing then men in many parts of the world?

Today? In some parts yeah.

yourfaceyourass · 2012-08-19T21:46:02+00:00

Do you believe that historically woman have had a lower standing then men in western society? Do you believe that woman have a lower standing then men in many parts of the world?

I think Girlwriteswhat tackles this question very nicely

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vp8tToFv-bA

I think her videos are a great starting point to the MRM.

While certainly men have had the more dominant positions, the average male did not have it much better than the average women. Would you rather stay home and take care of the kids or work 15 hours a day to support your family or be drafted into war and have to die for some shit cause? And the marginal differences were not the result of oppression of women or some systematic attack on women, but rather from the same underlying issues, with economic, biological, and social precedents that gave rise to them. That is, women weren't any more targeted than men were. While one may have had it worse than the other is irrelevant. The development of gender roles wasn't for the purpose of subjugating women, but rather an economic solution to the economic needs of the time. You can see that it wasn't until the Industrial Revolution, that women's traditional roles were severely lifted and places that are still underdeveloped still have traditional gender roles. You have to understand that in many places, its not even viable to give women the same standing as men. When infant morality rate is so high for example, women have no choice but to spend years just in pregnancy just so a few offspring will live to adulthood. Most jobs are also labor intensive and require a male provider, so placing the male as the provider of the household is a no brainer. In Afghanistan, the unemployment rate is as high as 50%. Men who are accepted to be providers can barely even get by. Even in Iran, 70% of STEM fields are women. Its also not to say that in these places people beating their wives is commonplace and accepted. Victims of violence and death in almost every culture is overwhelmingly men. Men who deviate from the norm, would much as likely be under attack as women. Its not as if they all have a bunch of educational and work opportunities for everyone but they just bar women from them. Love isn't a 20th century creation by Hollywood. I think women wearing burkas is the most commonly one seen as oppression of women. But the practice is upheld by women as well, and would be very insulting if you told a Muslim women that she shouldn't wear it. Islam also places many restrictions on sexuality of males and even places a restrictions on males clothing. The purpose of the burka, also isn't necessarily to not allow sexuality of females, but rather to protect the 'awrah (intimate parts) of the body, as showing them to anyone but one's spouse is regarded as a sin. Its purpose hence has more do with restricting sexual freedom and lust from men by making the body sacred and forbidden. Its not even in the interest of males to restrict women's bodies and forbid them of sexuality until marriage. (Islam even restricts masturbation and males from having sex with their wives while they're on their period for god's sakes) Morality is only guided by what makes sense at the time for the purpose of benefiting society, and what seems idiotic now was completely seen as accurate at the time. The problem hence has much more to do with economics, religion, and etc than it simply does with "oppressing women". Its a complicated problem and should be seen as a humans right issue, as opposed to a "womens rights issue" or a feminist issue. If you want to fix these problems, you have to overthrew the theocratic government, build a stable economy and provide jobs, build schools and education, raise literacy, build hospitals, lower infant mortality rates, get rid of religion, and etc.

I think there are a lot of naive ideas about how women are treated as nothing while men live glorious happy lives for the sake of keeping women down. Its not to say that women haven't had greater restrictions of freedom though. But once you rationally and logically analyze the precedents as to why the way things are, that mystical notion of "but its not fair!!", goes away. I think as a left commie yourself (judging by your username), I think you will very much agree on analyzing history based on its material precedents alone. You might be interested in Engels work on "Origins of the Family". http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1884/origin-family/index.htm

Women and men both have been historically oppressed, but in different ways, I think sums up my view. But both forms of oppression were the result of economic hierarchy and class and essentially economics, rather than the simplistic view of patriarchy and the discard of male oppression. I don't think feminism is wrong when it says "patriarchy hurts men too", but I think it misses the bigger picture.

And yes, there are about an equal number of discriminatory gender roles against men and women, in western culture at least. Privilege stems primarily from economic power, not sex. And while men may represent the higher strata, they also overwhelmingly make up the bottom as well.

ignatiusloyola · 2012-08-19T22:09:47+00:00

Read the FAQ. You claim to not be a troll, but even your name is suggestive of past troll attempts.

It is fact that domestic violence is not a gendered problem. As for sexual assault, it is very difficult to trust numbers on this considering the social acceptance of women assaulting men. Many people here have experienced sexual assault at the hands of women, and have their beliefs based on experience. But few studies account for this social bias, and the ones that do show parity between genders.
Woman's body, woman's choice. But I do believe in legal paternal surrender, where a male may decide during the pregnancy whether he wishes to be considered the legal father of the child. Giving up rights to the child also gives up responsibilities to the child (just as women have).
Covered in 2. However I will stipulate that once a decision is made, it should not be so easy to reverse. ie: if a guy changes his mind after birth, too bad. If he decides he wants rights to the child when it is older, then he should be liable for back child support. It isn't fair to put all of the burden on the mother when the child is young, only to get the "good parts" when the child is older.
Straw man and loaded question. You are presuming a situation/point of view that does not exist.
Learn your history. Don't ask us about historical fact, read it yourself.

2012-08-19T21:57:43+00:00

New to mens rights? Try these links for a better understanding...

http://huntingforarchetypes.blogspot.ca/2012/08/the-path-to-zeta-masculinity-proto.html

The_Patriarchy · 2012-08-19T21:38:12+00:00

Do you believe that men and woman face an equal amount of sexual assault and domestic violence?

Sexual assault? No. However prison rapes do significantly increase the number of male victims, and male victims in general are strongly discouraged from even admitting anything bad happened so I'm not comfortable putting a concrete number on male victims.

Domestic violence? Well studies do show that men and women initiate violence against one another at roughly equal rates. Men are bigger so women tend to get seriously hurt more often from slaps/punches. However, women are more likely to use a weapon. And complicating issues again is the fact that male victims are strongly discouraged from admitting that anything bad has happened to them. Overall, I don't know if they're exactly equal.

Do you believe that when a man gets a woman pregnant that he should have some legal authority on whether she takes the pregnancy to full term or not?

No. It's her body and it's her choice. However, I do believe that men should have the same right to opt out of parenthood after conception. This is known as the "financial abortion".

If a woman does take the pregnancy to full term and the man isn't involved in either her's or the child's life, do you believe that he is of no obligation to provide financial support to the mother?

I think it should depend on the circumstances. If she took the child to term because he said he would be there to raise it, then he definitely should have an obligation. When it comes to the financial abortion, I think this could easily be handled by allowing the father to opt-out within 1 week of having been notified about the child/pregnancy (actual notification, not bullshit legal tricks like "service by publication"). That way he can't string her along and walk away at the last minute...and she can't hide the pregnancy from him until it's too late for him to exercise his rights.

If MRM is about abolishing double standards, what possible explanation can you give for having the mother take on the entire financial and actual care of a child?

Both men and women should have the right to opt-out of parenthood post conception. Both men and women should be held responsible for the decisions they make unilaterally. No one should be forced into parenthood against their will. If sex isn't consent for parenthood for women, then it's not consent for parenthood for men.

Do you believe that historically woman have had a lower standing then men in western society?

Yes.

Do you believe that woman have a lower standing then men in many parts of the world?

Yes.

seego79 · 2012-08-26T02:59:40+00:00

i will take your points in order.

yes i do believe that the rates are about equal but the reaction is unequal, men do not get the same support or care when something bad happens, and women will generally not be charged with the same crime and/or face the same punishment.
no i believe that bodily autonomy is one of the foundations of society, no goverment or person should ever have the right to tell someone else what the can and can't do with their body.
no the man should have no responsibility to pay if there is no involvement, but if there is involvement then there should be as much focus on acces/visitation as there is in collection of child support. but i think the norm should be 50/50 custody with no money going either way.
its not double standards, its just trying to make things faitr on both parties while recognising the biological differances.
no the poor have always had a lower standing regardless of gender but i do believe in these modern days there are women suffering and that needs to be addressed.

mayonesa · 2012-08-19T20:07:04+00:00

Do you believe that men and woman face an equal amount of sexual assault and domestic violence?

No. I don't think it matters however. First, any sexual assault and domestic violence is bad news and second, beyond the first incident or a confinement situation (jail), the victim shares the responsibility.

Do you believe that when a man gets a woman pregnant that he should have some legal authority on whether she takes the pregnancy to full term or not?

No, because whatever must be done must be done to her body and the corresponding risks.

However, I don't think the man should be obligated to pay for the kid if he wants it aborted and she doesn't agree.

If a woman does take the pregnancy to full term and the man isn't involved in either her's or the child's life, do you believe that he is of no obligation to provide financial support to the mother?

Yes.

If MRM is about abolishing double standards, what possible explanation can you give for having the mother take on the entire financial and actual care of a child?

It's not a double standard. It takes two people to get pregnant. If one is not interested in the result, it means the other took on the responsibility.

Do you believe that historically woman have had a lower standing then men in western society?

No.

Do you believe that woman have a lower standing then men in many parts of the world?

Yes.

Title	Some comments/questions concerning MRM.
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	0
Comments	35
Date	August 19, 2012 7:46 PM UTC (13 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/yhgw5/some_commentsquestions_concerning_mrm/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/some-commentsquestions-concerning-mrm.1015509 https://theredarchive.com/post/1015509

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