This is being spread like wildfire through my facebook friends. Thoughts?

jolly_mcfats · 2013-05-23T06:31:13+00:00

men are at higher risk than women of experiencing violence
calling a man a pussy is an attempt to shame him for not earning his status as a "real man"; women are granted status for being women. To call it misogyny is to misunderstand what is happening
that's weird about your class and the supreme court
tell me about it. rape jokes suck
feminism isn't the only gender equality movement
I don't know if I have ever heard of a man leading a woman's group, but at least women's centers are allowed on campus
sorry that men want love, and feel frustrated that demonstrating progressive traits doesn't work as well as being a charming rogue. this shaming tactic isn't going to fix things though- you need to acknowledge that "nice guys" aren't sexy, and understand when men try to be something else so that they can find love and feminine approval. How many of these frustrated guys are sympathetic to feminism by the way? Do they only abandon it when utterly frustrated? What alternative to the seduction community does feminism offer these guys who just want love?
People complain about chalked statistics because you are trying to eliminate due process; the foundation of our justice system.
The violence against women act is a prime example of how feminism can be destructive to discussion of important issues
see previous notes about violence that men face, and add in the acceptance of the genital mutilation of boys in this country
While we're talking about the boy you may have, let's talk about the education environment the AAUW has created for him, the lack of rights he will face in college thanks to feminist lobbying, and the hostile legal environment he will face if his wife ever decides that she doesn't love him any more and wants the kids (thanks to lobbyist efforts by groups like NOW)
"Feminism is for everyone", but only benefits some. No thanks.

ZAKtheBard · 2013-05-23T05:07:21+00:00

She needs feminism because without it nobody would see such aimless rambling and say "it's worth my time to read this."

ChunLiSBK · 2013-05-23T05:55:42+00:00

Women and girls have their clitorises cut out, acid thrown on them and broken bottles shoved up them as an act of war. Every second of every day. Every corner of the Earth.

What, you wanted facts?

akakaze · 2013-05-23T05:18:41+00:00

Ask someone who identifies as feminist whether they associate more with the Susan B. Anthony or the Margaret Sanger school of thought on the movement. Susan B. Anthony did a lot of things right, and if more feminists took her tack on equality, the world would be drastically improved. Margaret Sanger believed that white men should be sexual chattel for white women while the, as she called them, "lesser races" were wiped out via forced sterility.

2013-05-23T06:10:20+00:00

Not this bullshit again.

2013-05-23T07:10:23+00:00

Alright OP, I will bite. Here is what you want. I am not going to make it play nice with your FB friends, but I will give you the sources you want.

You are right, we need feminism to teach guys to take their safety more seriously as they are the majority victims of violent crimes . (http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/cv11.pdf page 5 table 5).
The biggest insult to a guy is to question their masculinity. There are multiple ways you can do this without calling them a girl, like just questioning their sexuality or bravery. citation? fuck you give me your citation.
There is a way of retorting this that is beyond my humble skills, but I will try. I can approach this two ways. There are 9 positions on the supreme court. "equal representation" is not going to happen. But also, can it not be said that there are much more important factors to consider than simply the gender of the candidates for the supreme court? is it not a nobler goal to pick the BEST candidates, rather than the one that fits our gender quota? (If you can't make headway here, I am sorry for you and your friends).
Freedom of expression or something. You may not enjoy it, but you shouldn't censor it for others. require TW if you must. Louie CK: http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-july-16-2012/louis-c-k-
Maybe where you live
Am I missing something? Is this a local politics problems? This does not answer why society, AS A WHOLE, needs feminism (Assuming it is a local issue).
I am not sure where these ideas come from, where do they come from? You can't just say rape culture, you have to be more descriptive than that. Also, circular reasoning is bad.
Why do people have to identify as feminists to support most aspects of feminism? Many people are very egalitarian without thinking of themselves as feminists. This isn't answering why society needs feminism, this is stating that feminism needs more society.
Just because the angry protesting feminist is inconvenient, doesn't mean it isn't real. www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhliqceyoL8&t=1m45s Welcome to the second wave!
Nothing to say here: I need something more concrete to argue with.
[See second half of my supreme court stuff]. What we have is an ambition gap, not a preference gap. http://books.google.com/books/about/It_Still_Takes_A_Candidate.html?id=X3PkMhfHxM8C (I am sure you can find the real sources based on the summary provided). Now, why do we have a preference gap? That is a reasonable question to ask, but you can't assume discrimination based on inequality as (wait for the sexism) the brains aren't equal! http://www.amazon.com/The-Blank-Slate-Modern-Denial/dp/0142003344/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1363372039&sr=8-1&keywords=the+blank+slate http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20600789 (A lot of that is not necessary for the initial refutation)
I will not attempt to argue catcalling culture, although I am not sure how feminism is a strong response to it.
There needs to be more information here... Are these discrepancies based on age? department? papers published? classes taught? hours worked per week? time working for the university? That information alone doesn't tell me much about sexism.
I am sorry that some people think that, with proper analysis of statistics you can find the root of the problem and therefore can treat it better. To do that requires proper statistics. I am sorry that you have a different idea of statistics than these people.
Something fallacity of composition or accident. I can't remember which: basically, by rejecting the bill as a whole, does not NECESSARILY mean they reject everything included in it. This might be helpful (I haven't read it myself, I prefer the NCFM retort). http://womenagainstvawa.org/
Wanna know something crazy? Murder is illegal. And yet, it still happens. People do bad things: we can try and stop it, but people will still do bad things. It is infeasible to try and stop everyone from doing any bad thing (at the moment). So instead, what we CAN do is practice good safety and security measures. Victim blaming? No. I am not saying she deserved it, I am not condoning the action. I am saying that, a basic rule of security, is the only actions you can truly account for are your own.
While I don't think Chris Brown is justified... His actions could be construed as an overzealous self defense IIRC ( http://poponthepop.com/2009/03/tmz-confirms-what-we-already-told-you-rihanna-hit-chris-brown-first/ ). [This might be another point to leave out]
[citation needed]. This is just asking for trouble though, but I can refute many of those sources about 1 in 3 women will be raped. You are probably better off just asking for citation of the broken bottles as an act of war as a poignant response (that will go over their heads). fun fact: I have no idea what western feminism is doing to do to accomplish these goals that are more common in the 3rd world.
As harsh as this sounds, this seems like a smaller issue than society as a whole needing feminism. People she is around are getting sexually assaulted: sexual assault is a problem beyond feminism. By that, I mean that many people who are not feminists are also against sexual assault, and you can be working against the problem without identifying as a feminist.
The conotation would be less if it were more gender neutral, like "egalitarianism". If there weren't conspiracy theories such as "rape culture" and "patriarchy" (Yes, a theory that is an answer to a significant problem of societies woes, with the only evidence affirming the existence is to restate old fashioned ideals is on the same level as the illuminati). That is a nice world view you have, a world without crime. I remember a few stories about worlds without crime, they were in 1984 and brave new world.
So basically, There are a lot of issues in the world, and feminism (as it is being used here) can be used to solve some of them. However, nothing listed specifically REQUIRES feminism to be widespread to be accomplished. All these issues can be solved outside of feminism.

That took way too long to type up, and I am sure it can use some improvements. But I will not log in to see them :/ . Good luck.

literallyschmiteraly · 2013-05-23T04:50:05+00:00

No, there are no thoughts there that I can see. Just platitudes.

ExpendableOne · 2013-05-23T14:03:34+00:00

Because to men, a key is a device to open something. For women, it’s a weapon we hold between our fingers when we’re walking alone at night.

umm... guys do that too, especially if they happen to feel vulnerable because of their size/stature. Even if they didn't, that doesn't mean that most guys wouldn't be ready for a fight and, considering the amount of work that most guys put into personal training(building strength, learning how to fight, mentally preparing themselves to defend themselves, etc) compared to women, I'm pretty sure men worry about this a lot more than women do. Not everyone is paranoid about being assaulted that's for sure(a lot of women do not even take their personal safety seriously, if not simply because they assume that there will always be other men there willing to risk their health to come to their rescue; another privilege that men generally do not possess), but for every woman worried about getting raped on her way home at night, there's a guy that's worried about being mugged, assaulted, mauled and/or stabbed(maybe even shot, depending on where you live), simply to be left dying in a ditch somewhere.

Because the biggest insult for a guy is to be called a “pussy,” a “little bitch” or a “girl.” From here on out, being called a “pussy” is an effing badge of honor.

The word "pussy" isn't about insulting women or being misogynistic, it's a word used tell a man(typically) that they are adopting childish/petty behaviors, which have throughout history come to be associated with femininity because women have have always been able to get away with those behaviors because they are women(traits like cowardice, weakness, selfishness, over-sensitivity, being overly dramatic or lamenting, etc). It is a way of telling men that they do not get to be weak, that they do not possess the necessary female privilege to get away with those kind of negative behaviors and that those childish behaviors will not be excused for them simply because the world excuses women when they perpetuate those childish behaviors. It is holding men to a higher and stricter standard of being and it is a standard that would completely disappear if we were to hold women to the same standards of being as we hold men or if women were to make an effort to actually stop perpetuating the stereotype. The derogatory term "girl" in the context of physical strength also isn't really about insulting women, it is about highlight the biological differences and physical expectations between men and women. Women will always be, on average, physically weaker than men(especially when you have so many women who aim to be weak and so many men who aim to be always be stronger) and, as long as men are valued/judged for their strength, the world will continue to use female physical capabilities as a benchmark for their own progress. Also... pretty sure "pussy" isn't the biggest insult you can call a guy. Most men would probably laugh that off, even if it used to question their masculinity(which women directly enforce just as much, if not more so, than other men) or their utility to the female gender.

Because last month, my politics professor asked the class if women should have equal representation in the Supreme Court, and only three out of 42 people raised their hands.

"Equal representation" doesn't mean making half the supreme court women simply because they are women. If gender equality means anything, it means not being defined by your gender. Not only could those women poorly represent women but it's also completely sexist to assume that a man wouldn't or couldn't have women's best interest at heart. It's also completely ludicrous to assume that there are just as many women as there are men who strive for those types of positions.

Because rape jokes are still a thing.

Jokes about genocide, world poverty and slavery are still a thing. Jokes about male mutilation, assault/murder against men and castration are still a thing. Jokes about pedophilia, necrophilia and incest are still a thing. People can and will make jokes about just about everything, especially if it's taboo, that's how humor generally works. Jokes don't suddenly stop simply because they offend you, and you don't get to dictate what others say or find funny. What entitles feminists to consider rape jokes to be so much worse than all of these other subjects in the first place? Is it because of this idea that rape only hurts/affects women? Because it's doesn't.

Because despite being equally broke college kids, guys are still expected to pay for dates, drinks and flowers.

And what has feminism done about this? Nothing. Most feminists would still, in their personal lives, expect men to do just about everything in a dating/romantic context because they are men, and chastise men for not living up to those sexist gendered expectations and unrealistic fantasies. Many women still think like this way to this day and whatever change has been accomplished on the matter has been driven forward men's rights movement and other egalitarian efforts despite feminism, not because of it. The only thing feminism has ever done on this matter is defend and justify women who call men deadbeats for not paying.

Because it’s assumed that if you are nice to a girl, she owes you sex — therefore, if she turns you down, she’s a bitch who’s put you in the “friend zone.” Sorry, bro, women are not machines you put kindness coins into until sex falls out.

No, it's not assumed that "if you're nice to a girl, she owes you sex", and this feminist misconstruation of the situation is completely offensive, spiteful, sexist, uninformed, harmful and hateful. The only thing that men who are nice, courteous and empathic to women would expect is that said women could respond with a basic level of niceness, common courtesy and empathy(instead of ridicule, belittlement, apathy and resentment). The frustration from men in this matter comes from women who perpetually lament about not being able to find nice, loyal or sincere men but then will flat out shit on, neglect and/or dismiss such men without even the slightest hint of regret or remorse. There is nothing wrong about a guy that tries to be a good person and who wants to see those efforts valued or appreciated, rather than abused and used against him(an act of malevolence for which women are hardly ever held accountable for or socially reprimanded for). There is nothing wrong about a heterosexual man, who is naturally predisposed to be good towards people he genuinely cares about, wanting to express his sexuality without it being trampled on and dismissed. There is nothing wrong with a man for wanting to be a good person, as he was told to be for his entire life, without being dismissed, shamed and humiliated by women for being effeminate or weak(funny how this whole "hate the nice guy" thing is also in direct contradiction with her second point here. Either you embrace unmasculine men and their sexuality or you don't, you can't have your cake and eat it too).

EricTheHalibut · 2013-05-23T05:57:56+00:00

Because to men, a key is a device to open something. For women, it’s a weapon we hold between our fingers when we’re walking alone at night.

That's her personal paranoia generalised to all women. Plenty of women would just see a key as a tool for unlocking doors, not an impromptu weapon, and plenty of men have used keys as weapons.

Because the biggest insult for a guy is to be called a “pussy,” a “little bitch” or a “girl.”

Is it?

From here on out, being called a “pussy” is an effing badge of honor.

If you say so, kid.

Because last month, my politics professor asked the class if women should have equal representation in the Supreme Court, and only three out of 42 people raised their hands.

Probably because they took the question to mean "should there be a quota (formal or informal) for women on SCOTUS?"

Because rape jokes are still a thing.

Slavery jokes are still a thing. Murder jokes are still a thing. Genocide jokes are still a thing. Was there a point?

Because despite being equally broke college kids, guys are still expected to pay for dates, drinks and flowers.

Well, it is nice to see how much success you've had dealing with that.

Because as a legit student group, Campus Fellowship does not allow women to lead anything involving men. Look, I know Eve was dumb about the whole apple and snake thing, but I think we can agree having a vagina does not directly impact your ability to lead a college organization.

Firstly, women are overwhelmingly the main supporters of misogynistic churches, so they might not mind.

Secondly, if their interpretation of scripture is such that they believe that women should not lead, then women who want to lead the group are obviously not in accordance with the aims of the group and so are ineligible to do so. The solution is to form a separate christian group, and perhaps to amend the society funding rules to make that possible.

Because it’s assumed that if you are nice to a girl, she owes you sex — therefore, if she turns you down, she’s a bitch who’s put you in the “friend zone.” Sorry, bro, women are not machines you put kindness coins into until sex falls out.

That's an oversimplification of an oversimplification of a corrupted meme.

Because only 29 percent of American women identify as feminist, and in the words of author Caitlin Moran, “What part of ‘liberation for women’ is not for you? Is it freedom to vote? The right not to be owned by the man you marry? The campaign for equal pay? Did all that good shit get on your nerves? Or were you just drunk at the time of the survey?”

"The people I think I'm working for don't want to join my group. That must mean that people should join my group." Clearly.

Incidentally, how many people are abolitionists? Clearly we need to revive the abolitionist movement even more than we need feminism.

Because when people hear the term feminist, they honestly think of women burning bras.

That's because the ones with money and power are lunatics.

Dude, have you ever bought a bra? No one would burn them because they’re freaking expensive.

Nonetheless, people did burn them.

Because Rush Limbaugh.

"Because someone disagrees with me, society needs to support me." Or maybe you're just wrong. That isn't an argument.

Because we now have a record number of women in the Senate … which is a measly 20 out of 100. Congrats, USA, we’ve gone up to 78th place for women’s political representation, still below China, Rwanda and Iraq.

Well, I'm sure that the women in the Chinese government are representing the interests of women and not the interests of the CPC.

Because recently I had a discussion with a couple of well-meaning Drake University guys, and they literally could not fathom how catcalling a woman walking down University Avenue is creepy and sexist. Could. Not. Fathom.

XXXXXX

Because on average, the tenured male professors at Drake make more than the tenured female professors.

Is that because of gender, or because of chosen specialisation and seniority? More men than women were students in the past, so a disproportionate number of the older (and thus higher-paid) staff will be male.

Because more people on campus complain about chalked statistics regarding sexual assault than complain about the existence of sexual assault. Priorities? Have them.

That's obviously a local issue, and I don't know what happened so I can't comment.

Because 138 House Republicans voted against the Violence Against Women Act. All 138 felt it shouldn’t provide support for Native women, LGBT people or immigrant women. I’m kind of confused by this, because I thought LGBT people and women of color were also human beings. Weird, right?

Well, you're confusing "immigrant" and "illegal immigrant". Legal immigrants aren't specifically affected by changes in the VAWA - the changes only specifically applied to illegal immigrants, and Republican policy has long been one of no amnesties and immediate deportation where possible.

The native courts issue is one caused by the unusual nature of reservations, but the VAWA would have provided special legal status for one class of crimes, rather than resolving the issue.

Because a girl was roofied last semester at a local campus bar, and I heard someone say they think she should have been more careful. Being drugged is her fault, not the fault of the person who put drugs in her drink?

Being incautious is not the same as being at fault, and it is more often feminists complaining about victim blaming who make that "mistake" than people actually victim blaming.

Because Chris Brown beat Rihanna so badly she was hospitalized, yet he still has fans and bestselling songs and a tattoo of an abused woman on his neck.

For some reason people like his music. Most people don't engage in boycotts, so there's no reason to be upset that they aren't boycotting one specific person.

Because out of 7 billion people on the planet, more than 1 billion women will be raped or beaten in their lifetimes. Women and girls have their clitorises cut out, acid thrown on them and broken bottles shoved up them as an act of war. Every second of every day. Every corner of the Earth.

Meanwhile, your friends are ignoring or actively supporting people cutting boys genitals, even though it could be massively reduced with less than a page of legislation.

Also, we can't do anything about those things happening overseas without invading and forcing our cultural views on the people. A lot of feminists also think that is wrong, so what do you want done? Some nice words and hand-wringing isn't going to make much difference.

In any case, in much of the world the main driver behind FGM is older (mutilated) women.

Because the other day, another friend of mine told me she was raped, and I can no longer count on both my hands the number of friends who have told me they’ve been sexually assaulted. Words can’t express how scared I am that I’m getting used to this.

I know quite a few men who've been sexually assaulted, and I have been myself.

In any case, that doesn't prove he necessity of feminism.

Because a brief survey of reality will tell you that we do not live in a world that values all people equally and that sucks in real, very scary ways.

That doesn't necessarily mean that feminism is the answer.

Because you know we live in a sexist world when an awesome thing with the name “feminism” has a weird connotation.

Not neessarily, this is a repeat of some previous points.

Because if I have kids someday, I want my son to be able to have emotions and play dress up, and I want my daughter to climb trees and care more about what’s in her head than what’s on it.

That's already largely true, and you still haven't shown that feminism is the necessary solution.

Because I don’t want her to carry keys between her fingers at night to protect herself.

In most places, that's already true, and has been for a long time. IN any case, the rate of sex crimes against women has been falling whenever you use a consistent definition over time.

Because feminism is for everybody, and this is your official invitation.

That's not an argument at all. That's a blind assertion and a piece of nonsense.

It is also obviously untrue: not everyone benefits from feminism, since there must be at least some men who will be disadvantaged - men who have power, and who have no interest in anything they can't have to get the power.

PowerWisdomCourage · 2013-05-23T14:14:18+00:00

More senseless rhetoric based in Imaginationland.

2013-05-23T05:16:25+00:00

Some of those look almost egalitarian...so not feminist values.

2013-05-23T13:36:12+00:00

Where do you people get friends like this?

DavidByron · 2013-05-23T14:22:15+00:00

Not a lot. Feminists have always copy and pasted this sort of junk word for word. It's because they are so terrible at apologetics on an individual basis. It's shit of course (the content of the piece) but since you'll never be allowed to contest any of the "facts" in the article because you'll be banned, it remains effective as propaganda. Like repeatedly going on about how Saddam Hussein has WMDs.

duglock · 2013-05-23T21:19:53+00:00

Just seems like they are upset that freedom of speech and a difference of opinion regarding gender characteristics exists.

ELTepes · 2013-05-23T23:19:00+00:00

She says that a vagina has no correlation to leadership skills but its obvious she thinks that there need to be more women in congress and on the Supreme Court regardless of there ability. A vagina doesn't make you a better or worse leader but we need more women leaders because it will make everything better...just wanted to make sure I understood her right.

TRC042 · 2013-05-23T04:32:29+00:00

Did you not read her "about" statement that misogynists (that's code for male humans) are making her head explode? I mean, seriously, that's pretty out there as an introduction: "Hi, my head is about to explode because of all the misogynists in the world". Yeah, that's an objective writer.

Eulabeia · 2013-05-23T07:33:37+00:00

the biggest insult for a guy is to be called a “pussy,” a “little bitch” or a “girl.”

Because it's the same thing as calling someone spoiled and privileged, which women are. Men especially aren't allowed to be spoiled. Even feminists recognize that accusing someone of being privileged is an insult.

2013-05-23T13:12:13+00:00

What do I think?

The post doesn't really relate to feminism, aside from just "feminism is gonna fix these right?!". It doesn't say how feminists will accomplish this, or why it necessarily needs to be the feminist movement solving these issues.

Take the "women's rights advocates" that are popping up in greater and greater numbers - they are people who advocate on behalf of these issues but don't identify as feminists for any number of reasons, such as rejecting "feminist theory".

The post only lists a number of issues that need to be solved - it does not offer any useful insight into why we need feminism over any other group advocating for women's rights.

CycleAsAVehicle · 2013-05-23T17:52:01+00:00

You can just comment with something like

"You go girl! Personally, I need feminism so male victims of abuse can continue to be thrown under the bus"

blueoak9 · 2013-05-23T17:59:53+00:00

You have bunch of idiots for Facebook friends. That's my thought on that.

"Because rape jokes are still a thing."

If the rape victim is a male convict. And what is feminism doing to male convicts? Oh, that's right - making more of them by flogging rape hysteria to the public. Denying male rpae victims even exist, or that they matter, or that they didn't somehow commit the rape instead of being the victim of it. That's why male rpae victims need feminism!

Title	This is being spread like wildfire through my facebook friends. Thoughts?
Author	AlexanderSalamander
Upvotes	15
Comments	33
Date	May 23, 2013 4:10 AM UTC (13 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/mensrights/comments/1evu4p/this-is-being-spread-like-wildfire-through-my-/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/this-is-being-spread-like-wildfire-through-my.1613179 https://theredarchive.com/post/1613179

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