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Toxic Masculinity

Onebeat21 · 2021-01-17T01:04:23+00:00

Looks like this. When you ask, "what are all these pesky feminists talking about?" They're talking about this. ...

Onebeat21

January 17, 2021

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/r/MensRights

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Post Information

Title	Toxic Masculinity
Author	Onebeat21
Upvotes	0
Comments	92
Date	January 17, 2021 1:04 AM UTC (5 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/kyvu8u/toxic_masculinity/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/toxic-masculinity.835916 https://theredarchive.com/post/835916

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[–]User0x00G 9 points10 points11 points 5 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Onebeat21 -5 points-4 points-3 points 5 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link

[–]Bojack35 4 points5 points6 points 5 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

So you do believe that no feminist is a trump supporter. Or if they are they are a 'bad' feminist. Surely there are some who condemn his actions but still choose to vote Republican? Maybe they have a wider political viewpoint than just feminism.

It's this kind of narrow minded 'if you step out of line by having any different opinions you are wrong' partisan nonsense which will with any luck spell the end of feminism.

What do you mean by 'remarkably diverse'? Both the Republicans and Democrats secured votes from a wide range of demographics. Both have geographic and demographic strongholds' both secure plenty of votes outside these core groups. You could take the vast percentage of urbanised Democrat votes and say they aren't diverse because they are so reliant on this core group. But that wouldn't suit your argument would it.

[–]Onebeat21 -3 points-2 points-1 points 5 years ago* (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]Bojack35 3 points4 points5 points 5 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Literally the first result on Google

"Stewart noticed a slight widening of the gender gap – with women voting 56-43 for Biden, while the two candidates were almost tied among men."

Hardly a landslide difference.

"nationally Trump was estimated to have won about 57% of white votes – with huge state-to-state variations linked to factors such as education and age"

While there is a clear difference it's false to portray someone winning 57% of white votes and approx 50% of male votes as being as reliant on white male votes as you want to suggest. Obviously it's a key demographic you can't lose in the US but it is not the sole reason for his election and close loss this time around.

Where have you got that 20% figure from? Seems to contradict anything I have found (on an admittedly quick lazy google.)

Your second paragraph is just flippant especially when you acknowledge the potential (I would say very likely) existence of these 'bicycles' in your 3rd paragraph.

The so what is a massive point. Maybe there are feminists male or female who place more value on their other political ideologies than they do on their feminist ideologies. That doesn't make them not feminists it makes them complex human beings with different thoughts that conflict. That any feminist would try and dismiss or discredit their views for having a different political opinion seems awfully anti feminist. It just sums up the 'you are with us or against us' attitude which is so rife in modern entitled feminism.

[–]Onebeat21 -1 points0 points1 point 5 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]Bojack35 2 points3 points4 points 5 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Sigh...

Can you provide a citation for your claim that less than 1/5th of trump supporters are non white?

I did not assert that Trump won 43% of non white votes. I merely observed that if he only won 57% of white votes and 50% of male votes it is unlikely that his voter base is as heavily white male only as you imply. It would be impossible for someone to have a close election result without significant support from other demographics when his advantage in those two areas is so slim.

I'm not promoting an agenda of Republican feminists I'm just saying that given the man won 43% of womens votes it is a) unlikely that none of his supporters are feminist and b) deliberately provocative and misleading of you to present Trump supporters protesting as being an example of toxic masculinity. My initial question was simply were the women being toxic or are you ignoring the diversity of his support group to make an anti male statement just for the sake of being provocative?

I'm not asking you to validate my beliefs. I'm asking you to provide evidence to support your claims. I'm suggesting that dismissing the views of 43% of female voters on account of them voting for someone you dont like is not exactly the actions of someone interested in womens rights. It's the action of someone who is only interested in a narrative that promotes their idea of womens rights and be damned the women who disagree.

[–]Onebeat21 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/10/26/what-the-2020-electorate-looks-like-by-party-race-and-ethnicity-age-education-and-religion/

This was where I got the original number from, I also did a lazy google search and found a more recent article that said it was closer to 1/4 either way i don't consider that "remarkably diverse" which was what I originally stated and if you disagree that's fine.

I'm not asking you to validate my beliefs. I'm asking you to provide evidence to support your claims. I'm suggesting that dismissing the views of 43% of female voters on account of them voting for someone you dont like is not exactly the actions of someone interested in womens rights. It's the action of someone who is only interested in a narrative that promotes their idea of womens rights and be damned the women who disagree.

I tried really hard to make sense of this. It's not like there's this enormous feminist wave in the Republican party that i'm dismissing. Are you asking me to explain why conservative ideology and feminism are at odds? Because that requires me to list things that I'm pretty sure you already know.

A similar comparison would be gay republicans. It's not so much that they're not entitled to their opinions but it's a bit ludicrous to support a party that routinely legislates against you.

[–]Bojack352 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

This was where I got the original number from,

Fair enough.

i don't consider that "remarkably diverse" which was what I originally stated and if you disagree that's fine.

The word remarkably is a hard adjective to put a number on! The initial point I tried to make is that it's a bit unfair of you to paint Trump supporters protesting as being an example of toxic masculinity. You then shifted it from gender to race.

My point still stands that Trump does (or did) have supporters from various demographics and to condemn the actions of the minority of his supporters as being the result of toxic masculinity seems a bit wide of the mark.

I tried really hard to make sense of this. It's not like there's this enormous feminist wave in the Republican party that i'm dismissing. Are you asking me to explain why conservative ideology and feminism are at odds?

The point I was making was simply 43% of women who voted did so for Trump. So it is unfair to dismiss or label Trump supporters as toxic men when such a large % of women voted for him. I just asked why you focused on the men in the protest and not the women?

I completely understand that a lot of traditional conservative values are at odds with modern feminism. That doesn't mean there aren't conservative women or indeed conservative feminists.

I get your point on gay rights. I wouldn't however dismiss someone as not being a 'real gay' because they voted Republican. I have never agreed 100% with any political party doesn't mean I dont make the best decision I think I can even if it conflicts with some of my values.

[–]Onebeat211 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

when you said " Given that both feminism and Republicanism are broad diverse groups " i assumed you didn't mean diverse exclusively in gender, it confused me as well.

My point still stands that Trump does (or did) have supporters from various demographics and to condemn the actions of the minority of his supporters as being the result of toxic masculinity seems a bit wide of the mark.

It's certainly not solely the result of toxic masculinity despite violence and aggression being the primary symptoms. There's plenty of blame to go around whether it's the media the consume or the rhetoric of their leaders. I also don't think that all the millions of Trump voters will potentially commit an act of terrorism.

I do believe that conservative ideology and propaganda as it stands now irrefutably breeds domestic terrorism as evidenced by the events at the Capitol, Charlottesville, Dylan Roof, the plot to kidnap the Governor of Michigan etc etc.

" I just asked why you focused on the men in the protest and not the women? "

The vast majority of the mob who arrived armed and ready was made up of mostly white men and while some women participated I'd be wrong to think that acts of far right violence and domestic terrorism aren't primarily committed by men.

Neither of us can honestly say those events would have unfolded had the group been primarily composed of women.

[–]bufedad 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Suck-Less 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Right, which is entirely different from the last four years of “not my President” and eight years of Bush stole the election post Gore v Bush.

The “right” are the primary owners of over 400 million firearms in the US. Have most of the veterans and active duty military on their side... including all those soldiers in DC right now. Most of the police too since the left lost its mind. There’s a reason most of the doors were just open for the protesters, by the police. Heck some of the police even handed protesters water as the walked into the Capital Building.

A protest is not domestic terrorism. Do you want to know what a “right” domestic terrorist looks like? Google Timothy McVeigh. One, just one, very motivated, very angry, veteran.

Oh, did you like that pic of your “National Guard protection” kicking back in the Capital Building reading Atlas Shrugged? Thanks for inviting us in.

[–]Onebeat21 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

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[–]realbrit 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

Haha. Where did I scapegoat black people mate?

Footage of BLM and Antifa riots clearly shows white people commiting acts of violence and vandalism in the same manner so don't for a second try to pull that rubbish on me.

I denounce the riots that took place, I denounce the storming of the capitol building.

There it is in black and white for you, for the second time.

Once again however I won't denounce violence.

Violence has its place in the world, and whilst I detest violence particularly in cases where it is committed against those unable to defend themselves I can acknowledge it is sometimes necessary to do the right thing.

Without violence we wouldn't have won WWII.

Without violence we wouldn't have some of societies most unhinged and dangerous criminals behind bars.

Do you beleive violence is somehow morally reprehensible in every situation and all circumstances? Do you believe that it is something one should never partake in even in self defense or the defense of those who cannot defend themselves?

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[–]Onebeat21 -1 points0 points1 point 5 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

To suggest that "self reliance" is what feminists mean when they speak of toxic masculinity is dishonest.

I've never heard "self reliance" associated with "Toxic Masculinity" though it's possible someone somewhere wrote that it was. Either way, you're overstating the relationship between the two. Toxic masculinity is a fairly new buzz word and doesn't necessarily have a solidified Dogma.

So what does “toxic masculinity,” or “traditional masculinity ideology,” mean? Researchers have defined it, in part, as a set of behaviors and beliefs that include the following:

Suppressing emotions or masking distress
Maintaining an appearance of hardness
Violence as an indicator of power (think: “tough-guy” behavior)

In other words: Toxic masculinity is what can come of teaching boys that they can’t express emotion openly; that they have to be “tough all the time”; that anything other than that makes them “feminine” or weak. (No, it doesn’t mean that all men are inherently toxic or that all masculine traits are toxic, that's why it's an adjective)

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[–]Onebeat21 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I agree, certainly not everyone who bottles their emotions become a domestic terrorist or a violent abuser.

Toxic masculinity is produced by a set of patriarchal norms that perpetuate the notion that being a “man” means to be dominant, aggressive, violent, and very often misogynist, homophobic, and an array of other -isms. It’s a combination of “locker room talk,” “boys will be boys,” and all of the other phrases we bandy about to excuse behaviors that are unacceptable and harmful — not just to women, but to men as well. And to society overall.

Of course, not all masculinity is “toxic”. That’s why it’s an adjective. There are plenty of other types of masculinity that are positive, nurturing, and so on. For decades, however, it has been toxic masculinity that was socially accepted and idealized as part-and-parcel of what makes a man a “real” man, leaving little room for alternative masculinities.

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