Went exactly as expected

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On top of this, if women complain that they aren't strong enough, there are many other jobs that could be done by them, such as tech roles, nurses/medics, cooking, etc, and they would still be much safer than men in the battlefield. Either no draft, or draft for everyone. To say women shouldn't get drafted is just sexism.

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Not specifically, but again the fact that they felt the need to exclude prison labor indicates they did intend it to apply to state-enforced labor, which conscription meets any reasonable definition of. In addition, as I have pointed out there are numerous examples of such a rigid "original intent" standard NOT being used. The drafters of the 14th Amendment would most likely have considered, say, interracial marriage an abomination and not deserving of equal protection under the law, just like the drafters of the 13th might have considered forcing someone into military service to not be involuntary servitude, but the Courts ruled that the text should be interpreted based on the universal principle it promotes, not as enshrining the drafters' biases and prejudices into constitutional law.

So, (a) what evidence do you have that the 13th wasn't intended to cover conscription but the drafters just forgot to mention it and remembered to mention prison labor? (b) Why should rulings on the 13th Amendment, but not others, be blind to social progress?

[–]MelissaClick1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

they did intend it to apply to state-enforced labor

We already established that this is not what anyone is talking about.

prison labor

Probably you have the wrong idea when you're saying this.

Slavery as a punishment for crime didn't necessarily mean something like modern prisoners doing labor. The state would actually rent out convicts as slaves to farmers, mining companies, railroad companies, etc.. The convicts were reduced to the status of slaves and treated as property.

On the other hand, military conscripts, who have rights and receive wages, are not held in chains, are not whipped, have various rights of due process (through a court martial), etc. -- they have a status that is distinct from that of slaves.

what evidence do you have that the 13th wasn't intended to cover conscription but the drafters just forgot to mention it

I'm not claiming that they "forgot" to mention something. I'm claiming that when they referred to "involuntary servitude" they were referring to a status that was different from that of a conscripted soldier. The two social statuses are distinct, and they only meant to refer to one of them. (Even if we might validly say that an interpretation of the phrase could refer to both.)

[–]Wheream_I 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

I mean to be fair the “raise and support armies” part of the preamble falls under the part granting the federal government the right to impose and collect taxes and is logically restricted to the ability of the fed to tax the people for the purpose of raising and supporting an army.

And the 13th amendment specifically states

Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

SECTION 2

Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

I can see where he’s coming from and I do think it would be challenged if it was enacted once again. The issue is, there are no individuals currently affected by the draft so they have an ability to challenge the constitutionality of it.

People claim the draft is supported by Article 1 Section 8 of the constitution, but that reads

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States

This is just saying that congress shall have the ability to impose taxation, duties, and import/export taxes for the purposes of paying debts of the US and paying for a common defense (a military). How the hell has this been used to support the draft?

Wait holy shit I think I just changed my mind about the draft constitutionally.

I think it’s a necessary failsafe but I don’t really think it’s constitutional anymore...

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[–]Wheream_I 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States

The lack of the prevalence of the Oxford comma at the time of the constitution really pisses me off, as the government can now argue that the and between the export import taxation part and the “provide for the common defense” part are separate ideas, which grants the government the power to do anything for the common defense and not just taxation for the common defense.

That argument is wrong in my opinion but because of the lack of the Oxford comma at the time it can be believed to be either.

And the fact that lawyers only have 60 minutes to argue their cases before SCOTUS makes a lesson of historical English practices of the time preceding a defense of argument untenable, which means that lawyers attempting to disprove the validity of the draft are hindered in their arguments.

Now I’m frustrated.

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You're accusing me of missing the point, but you missed the point yourself. If there were no wars and no one willing to use violence to attain their means, then not only would there be no need for conscription, but there would be no need for an army in the first place!

But the people who would do these things exist, and saying that one should not have to protect the way of life we enjoy is wishful thinking at best.

Clearly if humans were moral beings we would not be needing to have this conversation but they are not.

Conscription at least has a goal beyond economic exploitation. The justness of said conscription can be judged by its aim. Slavery has no such redeeming feature and generally, no expiration date. I contend it is thus vastly more evil and harmful.

It seems to me you are conflating war and conscription.

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many blacks left their slave owners and went to the northern U.S. and were not subsequently prosecuted.

Proving absofuckinglutely nothing except my point.

The moment you're a draftee, you have no choice. The moment you're a slave, you have no choice. No difference. And if you think "draftees have the choice of committing a crime and going to prison or running to somewhere the law wont bother to pay to find you", that's exactly what options slaves had.

There is a seemingly endless list of creative ways in which draft dodgers avoided going to war during the Vietnam Era, and future generations will doubtless be just as creative. Even today's young men, who are required to register within a month of their 18th birthday, sometimes avoid registering by various means. The method used really doesn't matter, because the penalty remains the same. If you're tried and convicted of failing to comply with the Military Selective Service Act, you will be guilty of a felony offense. You could be subject to a fine of up to a quarter of a million dollars, a prison term of up to five years, or both.

So at 18, as male, don't sign up? Felony, 125,000 dollars fee, and/or 5 years prison.

You've got 1 month to plan your evac from your country to another country just to avoid having to sign.

https://www.sss.gov/Registration/Why-Register/Benefits-and-Penalties

Registration is the Goal

Selective Service wants young men to register. It does not want them to be prosecuted or denied benefits. If a draft is ever needed, it must be as fair as possible, and that fairness depends on having as many eligible men as possible registered. In the event of a draft, for every man who fails to register, another man would be required to take his place in service to his country.

Thanks. I suppose slave owners don't want to punish or kill their slaves or starve them, they just want them to work.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/storyline/wp/2014/10/16/america-may-never-have-a-draft-again-but-were-still-punishing-low-income-men-for-not-registering/?utm_term=.ce2e30449612

Davis never registered with the Selective Service System and so learned that he was looking at potentially lifelong consequences. No access to federal student loans or grants. No federal job training money or certain government jobs. And, in Virginia, no driver’s license.

“I didn’t know I had to register and now I can’t get anything,” Davis says. “I can’t do nothing.”

Tennessee requires males who failed to register to pay out-of-state tuition to attend the University of Tennessee system – even if they are state residents and citizens.

By far, the agency’s most successful tool to enforce compliance lies in the issuance of state driver’s licenses. Forty states, the District of Columbia and four U.S. territories now tie issuance or renewal of driver’s licenses to Selective Service registration. Most of those have moved to an automatic registration. Other have opt-in or opt-out provisions. Agency spokesman, Mr Tittmann, indicated that Selective Service strongly favors state laws for automatic registration when getting a driver’s license because it helps those most in need of the benefits linked to registration – young men out the mainstream, the disadvantaged, minorities, and immigrants.

“This is absolutely unfair,” Rep. Mike Coffman, a veteran of both Iraq wars, says of the sanctions. Coffman, a Republican from Colorado, is among the most outspoken critics of the system. Earlier this year, he co-sponsored a bipartisan bill that would abolish the $23 million agency, suspending registration – and sanctions — except by executive order in a time of national emergency.

http://archive.is/8DGlN

I went from Fresno High School Boy of the Year 1963, Stanford Class of 1967, to Prisoner 4697-159, C Block, maximum security, La Tuna Federal Correctional Institution, near El Paso.

I was among the quarter-million to half-million men who violated the law that required us to register for military service and face deployment to Vietnam — the draft. About 25,000 of us were indicted for our disobedience, almost 9,000 convicted and 3,250 jailed. I am proud to have been one of the men who, from behind bars, helped pull our country out of its moral quagmire.

I refused “to submit to a lawful order of induction.” I had my day in court that May. As was the case in almost every draft trial, my judge refused to allow me to present any testimony about the wrong I had set out to right, saying the war was not at issue. Nonetheless, my jury stayed out for more than eight hours before finally convicting me. I was sentenced to three years.

And remember, any time of that nature in prison is a felony. And what does felony tie to? The ability to vote or resist a government with your guns.

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Canada does need more troops, undermanning is chronic within units, but we're not in the habit of drafting people in peacetime. All i'm saying is that the economic incentive is not that effective for people who are comfortable.

Yes and it's precisely why I support the draft in a democracy as opposed to dictatorships. In a dictatorship, when you draft people you make them complicit in their own oppression since the military is often one of the purveyors of force to keep the population in check.

In a democracy, the army and the regime serves the people. If you have no soldier caste (ie, nobles, samurai, etc.), then who has the responsibility of the defense of the state in a democracy where theoretically the leadership is split amongst all?

It makes sense to me that if political power is split evenly through universal franchise, then everyone is also personally responsible for the protection of the state. That means serving in one capacity or another to protect your country when necessary.

[–]cld8 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Canada does need more troops, undermanning is chronic within units, but we're not in the habit of drafting people in peacetime. All i'm saying is that the economic incentive is not that effective for people who are comfortable.

I'm not familiar with Canada's military, but if they need more troops, they can get them by paying market wages. If they pay the same salary as McDonald's, there is no reason for anyone to risk their lives by joining. If they pay a higher wage to compensate for the increased risk (like police and fire departments do), they will get plenty of people.

Yes and it's precisely why I support the draft in a democracy as opposed to dictatorships. In a dictatorship, when you draft people you make them complicit in their own oppression since the military is often one of the purveyors of force to keep the population in check.

In a democracy, the army and the regime serves the people. If you have no soldier caste (ie, nobles, samurai, etc.), then who has the responsibility of the defense of the state in a democracy where theoretically the leadership is split amongst all?

The responsibility of defense of the state lies with the elected government, just as with all other matters. The military is subject to civilian control and oversight, so whether it's volunteers or conscripts really doesn't matter.

It makes sense to me that if political power is split evenly through universal franchise, then everyone is also personally responsible for the protection of the state. That means serving in one capacity or another to protect your country when necessary.

Does that only go for the military, or should people also be forced to work for other public service jobs?

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Its needed though, not for Vietnam, but it is need in some circumstances. I am a male of conscription age in the U.S., I don't want to voluntarily join the military and I do not support most wars, but I do support conscription, and I would not run away if it were my obligation to go

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If its a BS war like Vietnam they didn't prosecute a lot of people for dodging, its like standing up against an injustice at that point. If some tiny country was invaded by another and under intense subjugation and they wanted our help, then that is a legitimate reason to fight IMO

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Why does everyone assume military service is a death sentence?

I mean a draft today wouldn't even be comparable to a draft from the World War era. Most draftees would likely be doing some job to support the countless bits of equipment the military uses. Like shipping, stocking, transport, equipment management, and organizational duties. Not to mention you would have a ton of women doing those jobs out of the assumption most of them couldn't physically haul 50 pounds of gear for very long anywhere.

If it was another world war it would likely be the same as the last. Women working factory jobs. Draft or not. Just because women "on average" lack the physical capabilities to do most of the duties someone in infantry would have to do. Plus who would be left to care for the children in an event of a long war. Someone would need to raise the children and ensure they don't draft dodge when they come of age.

Tons of assumptions that don't make sense.

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How many soldiers do you think are firing guns, disarming IEDs, or doing any combat missions? How many soldiers do you think intentionally injured or killed anyone?

You're ignoring my point that non-combat doesn't mean no risk. If you're driving a fuel truck to resupply some tanks you're not on a combat mission but you can still be killed by IEDs (more likely if your side is winning) or air strikes (more likely if your side is losing). If you're a crew member on a transport ship you can still drown when a submarine sinks you (as happened quite often in WWII). If you're on an aircraft carrier flight deck there are numerous ways to die in an accident without your ship ever even coming under enemy fire.

That said, if your contention is that the percentage of soldiers who are actually in combat is low enough that the risk of death if you're conscripted is extremely low, then couldn't the country afford to reduce it even further by making front line roles all-volunteer and only putting conscripts in non-combat roles? That seems like a reasonable compromise.

Plus what would you rather have, hearing, or freedom?

If I'm working in an environment where I'm frequently exposed to noise of 150 DB or louder against my will on penalty of imprisonment, then I don't have *either.

[–]MrComicBook 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]HotDealsInTexas 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

A draft isn't permanent.

So which other rights does this apply to? Are you okay with quartering troops on civilians' property without consent as long as they leave after a couple years or when the war's over? Is it fine if a criminal defendant is tried in secret, is forced to testify against himself, has no jury or legal representation, and so on as long as it's not for too long of a sentence? How about torture as a criminal penalty? Is that fine as long as it's "not permanent?" (Torture can cause permanent physical damage, yes. So can military service, as I mentioned).

If America calls for a draft then you're going to have to forfeit your freedom for a short period of time or forever.

This is a false dichotomy. The last two times there was a military draft in the United States, we were at best fighting to protect an ally and at worst engaged in a war of aggression. The Korean and Vietnam Wars were not existential threats to the US. With that track record I do not trust the US government to only conscript citizens if there is an existential threat. The Vietnam War's public opinion fallout has prevented further drafts so far, but how long will that last? The generation that fought in Vietnam will eventually die, putting active conscription in the US out of living memory. Are you saying the government will never try to pull the war over our eyes?

Aside from that, under what actual scenario is there an existential threat to the US that will kill us slowly enough that there would be time to actually train drafted soldiers, but there isn't time for the legislature to pass an emergency constitutional amendment repealing a previous amendment banning conscription? If things are truly that desperate I imagine Congress could stop bickering and work fairly quickly.

[–]MrComicBook 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Any full scale war would give time to train people. Look at the most recent wars. Some lasted a decade.

Yeah the Korean and Vietnam wars weren't good choices for congress to call on a draft but that doesn't mean there won't come a time where there won't be a good time to call a draft. What about World War 1 and 2? How about the American revolution? We're those good times to call for a draft? I think so. The world would look vastly different right now if it wasn't for the drafts in those situations. How about the Civil War? Was that a good time to call for a draft? Look. I get where you're coming from. I'm a libertarian but there's a level of realism that must be put before the idealism. If Nazi Germany had been left of its own accord would America had been safe if we didn't intervene?

There is a cost for freedom and sometimes it does mean forfeiting your rights in some capacity under existential threats. It's not a perfect solution but if i was in a specific situation where I thought quartering troops would save lives I would do it voluntarily. However that's the importance of presidents not disarming our military or nuclear arsenal like Obama had been doing during his 8 years. Making a military weaker isn't good under any circumstances. If there comes a time where we need to defend ourselves against a real threat instead of these terrible wars we've been in since the 50's we will need a real military but trust in the government isn't necessary for them to protect your freedoms and that is why it's so important to teach the importance of American patriotism and the ideals of the American constitution in schools. How many people reading this right now can name what each amendment does without looking it up right now? But to hell with that let's focus in STEM subjects and pop-history "Jimmy Carter was the best president! Made no mistakes!" "JFK got us to the moon!" "George Washington owned slaves and chopped down a cherry tree" "MLK was the most principled man ever but died because white people are evil" because that's the extent of the history people learn in grade schools these days.

It's all interconnected and it's hard to give the right answer when all the ideals of the rights and ideals of the constitution and the bill of rights are subverted with each further generation because people aren't properly educated on the right stuff.

[–]HotDealsInTexas 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah the Korean and Vietnam wars weren't good choices for congress to call on a draft but that doesn't mean there won't come a time where there won't be a good time to call a draft. What about World War 1 and 2? How about the American revolution? We're those good times to call for a draft? I think so. The world would look vastly different right now if it wasn't for the drafts in those situations. How about the Civil War? Was that a good time to call for a draft? Look. I get where you're coming from. I'm a libertarian but there's a level of realism that must be put before the idealism. If Nazi Germany had been left of its own accord would America had been safe if we didn't intervene?

My argument is that in a future situation where the draft is truly called for, either the war will be extended for long enough that Congress would have time to pass the equivalent of a constitutional amendment to implement it (as would have been the case in WWII), or it will be a nuclear exchange where by the time conscripts are trained the country as we know it has already been destroyed.

The draft should in my opinion be a weapon of last resort where it should only be used if the national and state legislatures can all come to a consensus that it's genuinely necessary. It should require something like a Pearl Harbor.

Now, I will concede that this is for the US, and for countries like Finland or Israel that are bordered by enemies of much larger population and so must have a large percentage of their population rapidly mobilizable because they could get steamrolled in a couple weeks if they were unprepared, peacetime conscription is reasonable.

I am curious why you haven't addressed my compromise proposal, though: only use conscription for noncombat roles.

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[–]MrComicBook1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–][deleted] 5 points6 points7 points 8 years ago (27 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Lethn 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

It's not just the cost both long term and short term that is required to not only train conscript and keep them following orders ( Because you have to have somebody watching them at all times who is willing to do that job ) the fact is conscripts will always be a shit idea.

Take armies in the middle east as a perfect example, often run by dictators who kept people in line through fear they'd have a few loyalists and the bulk of the army will be made up of volunteers who can barely fight and people who they threatened into service.

That's why it was so damn easy initially for Americans to invade Iraq, the majority of the forces just ran when they realised what they were up against while they weren't necessarily conscripted when ISIS initially rolled into Iraq because the volunteers were shit they all took off their uniforms and ran for it as well. The worst part about conscription as well is as you say these people will be finishing their 'service' with no skillsets to speak of, this I think is one of the major reasons that the middle east is such a clusterfuck right now, the place descended into a civil war after the people decided to fight with the groups they felt their loyalties really lied with and the rest just fucked up the place generally trying to survive.

The middle east is an abject lesson in how not to invade a country or organise an army yet western countries especially seem to learn absolutely nothing from it.

[–]BSexclusionzone 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

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[–]MelissaClick1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Tank-o-grad1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]MelissaClick1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Tank-o-grad1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]MelissaClick1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]hermopietrobon 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Auszi 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]contexistential -9 points-8 points-7 points 8 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

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[+]1493271 points 8 years ago* [recovered] (3 children) | Copy Link

I don't think we have an issue with a shortage of people.

[–]MelissaClick 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[+]1493271 points 8 years ago* [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

Considering those old people died in the war?

[–]MelissaClick -1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Title	Went exactly as expected
Author	Eyesaccc
Upvotes	408
Comments	184
Date	May 15, 2018 7:55 PM UTC (8 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/8jom3l/went_exactly_as_expected/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/went-exactly-as-expected.901183 https://theredarchive.com/post/901183

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