Why does Feminism often involve degrading Men?

LeroyGankins · 2014-10-24T03:44:52+00:00

Degrading may not be the right phrasing, but I hope you can understand what I...

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Christina Hoff Sommers:

Christina Hoff Sommers (/ˈsʌmərz/; born 1950) is an American author and former philosophy professor who is known for her critique of late 20th century feminism, and her writings about feminism in contemporary American culture. Her most widely discussed books are Who Stole Feminism? How Women Have Betrayed Women and The War Against Boys: How Misguided Feminism Is Harming Our Young Men. Although some of her critics refer to her as anti-feminist, Sommers thinks of herself as an equity feminist who faults contemporary feminism for "its irrational hostility to men, its recklessness with facts and statistics, and its inability to take seriously the possibility that the sexes are equal – but different."

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Interesting: Who Stole Feminism? | American Enterprise Institute | Sommers (surname) | Sally Satel

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I don't agree with some of what BriannaBater said, but I don't understand why so many MRAs deny that male privilege exists.

It's obviously a real thing. There are millions of people who trust men more than women in leadership roles. They don't trust the advice of a woman selling tech products, and will find a male salesman instead. It's simply part of reality that a car repair shop with mostly-male employees will get more customers with one with mostly-female employees, because people don't trust women to know as much as men in certain fields.

It just doesn't make sense to deny that this stuff exists. Sometimes men are treated better than women because of their gender. It's just the truth.

And of course, the reverse is true too, and female privilege is also a thing. For instance, women can become teachers and nurses without facing mockery or extra scrutiny or fear of being treated like a child molester.

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Black privilege definitely exists. It is an entirely different set of privileges than white privilege or male privilege, but it is a thing that in certain circumstances, black people are treated better than others. Of course, these circumstances tend to be less common and less useful than the set of white privileges.

As for handicapped people or homeless people... it's hard to think of any circumstance where it's better to be homeless than to not be. I suppose you could consider the parking spots as part of handicapped privilege, but not if your handicap includes making walking more difficult. Like you said, if the group is something that virtually no one would ever want to be, using the word "privilege" doesn't make sense.

Many people acknowledge that most women are coddled and spoiled for most of their lives, so they have these prejudices

Sure, that's part of it. And think about how much fun it is for the woman who does work hard and gain expertise, just to be doubted and mistrusted while she sees equal (or inferior) male workers be treated like they can do no wrong.

[–]BriannaBater-9 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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You think women get paid more than men

Not for equal work they don't. Women on aggregate do earn less traceable income though but that's because of their privilege. It's not oppression to work less than men, and do less of the dangerous jobs.

wield disproportionate economic and political power? I don't think the numbers are going to bear that out.

What fucking numbers are there for a vague statement like that? Female voters outnumber male ones in America and politicians always talking about women's issues and never men's. It makes no difference that most politicians are men because they aren't trying to exclusively represent men's interests.

And define what you mean by "economic power".

I haven't attacked anyone or called anyone names and I haven't cursed at anyone, nor have I said anything hateful.

Yeah you're just defending a hate group.

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Really? You think women get paid more than men and wield disproportionate economic and political power? I don't think the numbers are going to bear that out.

Except, they do.

Women get paid more per hour of work. This besides the fact that they avoid en masse dangerous jobs and the related wage bonus for that danger. This besides the fact that, as a group, they take multi-year sabbaticals and there is a wage premium for continuous employment.

For economic power, women control their-income plus the majority of their partners or ex-partners, the latter being taken unwillingly in the form of alimony.

In politics, in the United States, women are a large majority in those legally empowered to vote. Largely, this is biological due to a minor advantage in births and longer lifespans.

In 2012, 64% of that larger pool of women voted versus 59% of men. The "woman vote" is simply more valuable - representing more power - than the man vote. This leads to the large variety of female only legal benefits.

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Yes, it includes studies that control for every variable you could possibly imagine.

Why won't you read it?

"Using CPS data, U.S. Bureau of Labor economist Stephanie Boraas and College of William & Mary economics professor William R. Rodgers III report that only 39% of the gender pay gap is explained in 1999, controlling for percent female, schooling, experience, region, Metropolitan Statistical Area size, minority status, part-time employment, marital status, union, government employment, and industry.[26] Using data from longitudinal studies conducted by the U.S. Department of Education, researchers Judy Goldberg Dey and Catherine Hill analyzed some 9,000 college graduates from 1992–93 and more than 10,000 from 1999–2000. The researchers controlled for workplace flexibility, ability to telecommute, as well as other several variables including occupation, industry, hours worked per week, whether employee worked multiple jobs, months at employer, and several education-related and "demographic and personal" factors, such as "marital status," "has children," and "volunteered in past year." The study found that wage inequities start early and worsen over time. "The portion of the pay gap that remains unexplained after all other factors are taken into account is 5 percent one year after graduation and 12 percent 10 years after graduation. These unexplained gaps are evidence of discrimination, which remains a serious problem for women in the work force.""

[–]RaxL3 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

"The portion of the pay gap that remains unexplained after all other factors are taken into account is 5 percent one year after graduation and 12 percent 10 years after graduation."

So, if the wage gap is 23%, you're talking about a difference of 5-12 percent of that 23 percent which means that the wage gap due to discrimination is 1.15% - 2.76%

Sowell talks about this here when he says "the differences become quite trivial".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EK6Y1X_xa4

1%-3% is a trivial difference, and, on top of that you have other studies that come out with different numbers. Some claim that women earn more, some slightly less. But, the bottom line is that yes, you posted the info yourself. Using the very info you posted, once you correct for all those factors, you end up with a wage fap of 1%-3%, making the "women make 77 cents for every dollar a man makes" line, false.

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I don't think anyone on this forum is actually interested in a discussion governed by reason, respect, or facts.

There are 61 comments in this post. 17 are not a result of your comment. 44 comments or 72% of the comments section deals with your comment. Just because people don't agree with you doesn't mean they don't want to have a discussion. Some of us here are going to a lot of effort to reply to you.

expect to be shouted down by them at any moment for not towing the line.

Just because people don't agree with you doesn't mean they're towing some line or are shouting you down. You got your conversation and by the looks of it, some commenters replied well and some poorly. What do you want? Do you think us all stupid and you the wise one will come in here and drop a wiki link and shut us down? Maybe you should consider what we're saying instead of just dismissing us.

you guys seem keen on downvoting any woman who posts statistics on here and I've gotten 50 downvotes on this thread.

Yes, downvotes on Reddit are used by people to signal "I disagree" even though that's not their intended purpose. Think of it this way, if you had posted a comment as benign as you did in r/feminism , you would have been banned on that first post. Over there, you're not allowed to question feminism at all.

the position of every man on here has been that the wage gap is 0% or somehow favors women

Yes, because we have read the statistics. And we have also listened to the feminists claims; they are pervasive. The difference is that a lot of us have actually taken the time to listen to the opposing arguments and find them to be a more accurate portrayal of the situation than the touted wage gap.

You realize it's that some studies show it as 23% while others show 12% instead, right? You don't get to take 12% of 23% just because you want to.

Look, I understand how what you posted is confusing. It's carefully worded in such a way that it seems like they're saying the pay gap is 5%-12% This is disingenuous and why feminism makes a lot of us angry. I didn't just "choose" to take 12% of 23%, that's literally what the sentence says. You need to actually read and pick apart your sentence.

"The portion of the pay gap that remains unexplained after all other factors are taken into account is 5 percent one year after graduation and 12 percent 10 years after graduation."

The key words here are "The portion of the pay gap that remains unexplained..." The pay gap is 23%. In this sentence they're talking about the portion of the pay gap, the portion of that 23% that remains unexplained.

"... after all other factors are taken into account..." This brings in all the things listed.

Then it goes on to say, "is 5-12 percent".

So literally, breaking the sentence down to its most basic gives us,

"The portion of the pay gap that remains unexplained is 5%-12%."

It is not saying that the pay gap itself is 5%-12%.

So the math is literally 23%(5%) to 23%(12%) = 1.15% to 2.76%

Maybe substitution would be a better explanation.

This,

"The portion of the pay gap that remains unexplained after all other factors are taken into account is 5 percent one year after graduation and 12 percent 10 years after graduation."

is literally this,

"The portion of the 23 % that remains unexplained after all other factors are taken into account is 5 percent one year after graduation and 12 percent 10 years after graduation."

because the pay gap is 23%. All I did was substitute the words for the numbers.

[–]I_FUCK_UP_RECIPES1 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

This experience probably left a bad taste in your mouth re:MRA types. In the interest of presenting my disagreement in a more polite manner:

I do believe a wage gap exists--the 5-7% post graduation and 12% ten years later you've quoted which is consistent with results by CONSAD and the AAUW, but I don't feel it's reasonable or intellectually honest to even bring up the 23% statistic which is based on raw data, unadjusted for career choices, experience, or even hours worked. It is easiest to see how this can be misleading when you look only at single, childless men and women in cities--the women out-earn the men there. The reason isn't discrimination against men, but statistics--most successful young men marry earlier and get left out of the data; most successful young women marry later while their less successful peers tend to marry younger. Non-discrimination related sources often can confound raw data sets like "all single men and women" or "all men and women", versus "all male and female engineers with 5 years experience who work 42 hours per week"

It bothers me that the people here feel the need to jump too far in reaction to years of hearing "It's equal pay day in April!" and outright deny that any gap exists. I do understand that reaction; it's a pendulum swing reaction. But it's the wrong reaction; the right one is to state the figures you've shown which indicate small unexplained gaps persist, which are still troubling.

As far as this community's reaction to the term 'male privilege', that's mostly out of a sense that men and women have it hard in different ways, and some anger that one might conclude "men are privileged" on basis of a 5-12% wage gap, while men experience a 60% gap in sentencing time (and double the rate of being sent to jail on convictions) as compared to women, when adjusted for prior history and other controlling data. That's just one example; others would be workplace death rates, suicide rates, the draft, etc.

In a general sense, asserting that a group has 'overall privilege' tends to connote that they have no right to ask for any betterment from society. I think this is fair to say of whites. Of straight people. Of wealthy people. But not of men (or women)--rather, it's better to say we all struggle under socially placed gender roles.

MRM's grumble with feminism really should just be that it's primarily working to help women, while not helping men. Feminism is not ever going to 'smash the patriarchy' in its entirety; it is an issue-based sort of activism, and all the issues it is championing are only going to assist women. So a movement to help men who are presently disadvantaged is needed, but I think it should be one that acknowledges the positive things feminism is trying to do for women.

Feminists do sometimes directly oppose the MRM's efforts to help men, or tell them to fall in line because they'll handle the issue (but they don't handle the issue). I think that's where the furor here comes from, but it's a misplaced furor because shutting us down is not their priority; helping women is.

FWIW, I don't think you deserved to be heavily downvoted for engaging in debate and it sucks that this community does that--but it's better than outright banning you as many other communities sadly might. Do try to focus on posts that tried to maintain a calm tone and offer information, and not the (unfortunate) series of PMs the more shitty users here almost certainly sent you. For their actions, I apologize. They bring down the PR this movement desperately needs.

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"Using CPS data, U.S. Bureau of Labor economist Stephanie Boraas and College of William & Mary economics professor William R. Rodgers III report that only 39% of the gender pay gap is explained in 1999, controlling for percent female, schooling, experience, region, Metropolitan Statistical Area size, minority status, part-time employment, marital status, union, government employment, and industry.[26] Using data from longitudinal studies conducted by the U.S. Department of Education, researchers Judy Goldberg Dey and Catherine Hill analyzed some 9,000 college graduates from 1992–93 and more than 10,000 from 1999–2000. The researchers controlled for workplace flexibility, ability to telecommute, as well as other several variables including occupation, industry, hours worked per week, whether employee worked multiple jobs, months at employer, and several education-related and "demographic and personal" factors, such as "marital status," "has children," and "volunteered in past year." The study found that wage inequities start early and worsen over time. "The portion of the pay gap that remains unexplained after all other factors are taken into account is 5 percent one year after graduation and 12 percent 10 years after graduation. These unexplained gaps are evidence of discrimination, which remains a serious problem for women in the work force.""

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Title	Why does Feminism often involve degrading Men?
Author	LeroyGankins
Upvotes	15
Comments	86
Date	October 24, 2014 3:44 AM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/mensrights/comments/2k5z4k/why-does-feminism-often-involve-degrading-men/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/why-does-feminism-often-involve-degrading-men.1622230 https://theredarchive.com/post/1622230

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