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[–]basiliskgf36 points37 points38 points 6 years ago (48 children) | Copy Link
y'all be cucked by the bourgeoise hard if you think this is about gender and not class
[–]catemlBlue Pill Woman16 points17 points18 points 6 years ago (46 children) | Copy Link
TRP doesn't believe working class women exist.
There are only 'welfare queens' reclining on a chez long and middle management Karens.
All those care, nursing, cleaning and service jobs just... magically do themselves. And that man would never utilise them. It is known.
[–]Oncefa2SJW9 points10 points11 points 6 years ago (43 children) | Copy Link
In fairness feminists are the ones who tend to deny class issues in favor of gender issues.
They ignore that the ruling class is made up of both men and women
They ignore that society is run by both men and women
They ignore that the oppressed are both men and women
This is in fact one of the biggest criticisms that socialists have of feminism, and is honestly one of the biggest flaws of feminism in general.
Once you start saying "men are also harmed by patriarchy" and "women also enforce it and benefit from it", you're no longer talking about a patriarchy, and are instead talking about class.
To put it into the words of a 19th century socialist:
The highest development of modern capitalism, as exemplified in the English-speaking countries, has placed man to all intents and purposes, legally under the heels of women. So far as the relations of the sexes are concerned, it would be the task of Socialism to emancipate man from this position, if sex-equality be the goal aimed at. The first step on the road towards such equality would necessarily consist in the abolition of modern female privilege.
https://archive.org/details/legalsubjection00baxgoog/page/n80/mode/2up
[–]catemlBlue Pill Woman1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago* (40 children) | Copy Link
I... no. Thats not what that means. I get what you're saying, I think. But you're over-simplifying it to the point that it doesn't mean that anymore.
The rest of your post makes sense if you compare hyper-capitalist 'lean in feminists' to 'socialists' as a group. But as I'm sure you are aware, those do not represent all or most feminists, and that feminism is not a unified force of 'fuck men, and nothing else matters'.
The way that there is a huge overlap - and correlation - between people that consider themselves feminists and those that consider themselves socialists would... kind of suggest otherwise? Unless you think that one or both of those groups is somehow entirely mislead about what those things are.
And maybe you do think that? But
What exactly do you think intersectional feminism is? You think that someone who says "Poor disabled black gay men are never oppressed because they're men!' is going to get resounding high fives from the rest of modern feminist club?
While some of the identity feminists and the anarchists and the Marxists do indeed tend to squabble like children about which hierarchy to dismantle first, and everyone rolls their eyes while in the background Trump gets elected - mostly people seem to agree that is a bad thing. Have you had ANY contact whatsoever with the modern left?
I don't want to be snarky to you, even though I like being snarky and thats the best thing about purge week, just... I think you're putting the onus on "things distracting from the class struggle" in the wrong place. And my original comment was because its a pet peeve of mine - manosphere men throwing class oppression in the face of 'women' "ARE YOU SAYING THIS GUY'S LIFE IS GREAT?!?" as if working class women don't exist, because they completely misunderstood what 'privilege' means.
[–]Oncefa2SJW1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
You think that someone who says "Poor disabled black gay men are never oppressed because they're men!' is going to get resounding high fives from the rest of modern feminist club?
"Men are never oppressed because they're men" is par the course for feminism, and this directly contradicts Marxist ideology.
There is a lot of open hostility from socialists directed at feminism in more than a couple leftist subs on Reddit, especially some of the more edgy "anarchist" subs. You might not see it if you hang out in feminist spaces (or in the moderate left which is really just centrism) but there is a lot of history here. The publication I referenced earlier is from 1896, for example (technically this predates feminism, but the women's movement was around back then). And feminism itself has more in common with conservative ideology than most lib fems want to admit to.
[–]reLincolnX0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (33 children) | Copy Link
as if working class women don't exist, because they completely misunderstood what 'privilege' means.
And what does that mean?
[–]catemlBlue Pill Woman0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (32 children) | Copy Link
I think maybe I'm going to have to start putting this in a Word document:
"Privilege" refers to - and this isn't a definition I'm pulling out - but the best way I've found to understand it:
Not experiencing a particular type of oppression - having the 'privilege' of not having to overcome a particular hurdle.
So take for example a black person who is talking about finding it difficult to find a mentor as a budding lawyer (and for the sake of argument you need one), because all the lawyers seem to mentor people who 'remind them of themselves', which seems to almost exclusively mean 'white'. That system worked fine when the buddying lawyers were all white, but now its meaning this person can't get a break. If you say "As a white person, I don't see a problem with that, work harder", you are speaking from a position of privilege. Because if you were in that situation, you would not have to overcome that barrier.
Now maybe you're not also a budding lawyer. You're a white gay disabled coal miner. It might well suck balls to be a white gay disabled coal miner. And this black lawyer... and I mean you don't know them well... but it sounds like they come from a lovely middle class family who sent them to debate camp. While your family never knew how they were going to pay for the next meal.
So it seems kind of ridiculous that you could be 'privileged' in ways he isn't. But you are. Because... in almost all instances, if you were also black, it would be worse. I mean, it was hard enough for you to get the mining gig while gay and disabled - never mind black on top of it. And technically if you found yourself in his position... you would be able to get a mentor easier.
That is what 'privilege' means in this context.
That is a ridiculously extreme example taken to the almost absurd, but the point is that its not about your worth, your whole life as an individual - its about the privilege of not having to think about certain types of societal oppression because they don't apply to you.
This subreddit is weird. Because in some ways, I get that dating as a man, especially a not attractive man, must be hard in ways I can't fully appreciate. And maybe with feminism, it feels like they're telling you that your life is sunshine and roses, but you feel shit, so its like... you're turning the tables? When you say "Everything in your life is HANDED TO YOU ON A PLATTER!". And I get that you're angry. But at least... there is sort of a structure and a perspective behind feminism, whereas this just seems like detached rage. The whole 'privilege' thing is essentially an attempt to explain why other people frustratingly brush past your difficulties, that isn't just 'they're a dick' or 'you're a little bitch'. At least it offers a framework of understanding both perspectives as those of conscious humans?
Like on another thread, I was talking about short guys and dating, and body shaming and shit. And multiple people were saying "You don't get how empty and hollow it is to say you think of a dude as worthy, but not fucking him - it's the not getting fucked he cares about". And from hearing that... it makes it seem like being a woman is different, in the sense you're used to your fuckability being sort of... the entirety of your worth. Everything you do is tinged with "Thats nice, but unless you're projecting what men want... you're just a shadow emulating full personhood, a thing aping a being, becomes men's role is to be people and women's role is to breed more people." It's really hard to put into words. But the gist is that to have men and other women say you can have real worth and regard to them outside of fucking men and birthing men... actually means a hell of a lot. Like, intimacy would be nice but... it still really means something for a man to say you have human worth, even if he wouldn't 'select you as a mate'.
So maybe you could say I have some 'pussy privilege' because having a hole gives me inherent value to you. Maybe there is even something in that. But unless you're willing to actually listen to my explaining why we maybe don't 'get' that other human decency is meaningless, and just shout "NO! NO YOUR LIFE IS EASY!" - I can't take you seriously.
....
Sorry I got a bit side tracked there. Anyway - privilege is a specific sociological concept relating to specific types of oppression. It doesn't mean a privileged person's life is great. Suffering as a person with privilege isn't an argument against privilege, even if its shit for you as an individual.
[–]reLincolnX0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Like I thought, you're as hypocritical as any SJW is...
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/privilege
Privilege is just a word that some people use to say to other people they have it harder than you even when they actually don't. The love for victimhood you share with your like-minded friends is baffling... You are playing the gatekeeper of the Temple of Suffering and you get to say who suffer and who don't...
Thanks for your answer
[–]catemlBlue Pill Woman0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Like I thought, you're as hypocritical as any SJW is... Thanks for your answer
You guys complain about how women communicate, but this is one of the most bitchily passive aggressive things I've ever read. "Thanks for confirming all the things I already knew to be true. I'll file this one in the self-righteous spunk bank. wink"
You are playing the gatekeeper of the Temple of Suffering and you get to say who suffer and who don't
Actual opposite of what I said.
Words have contextual meaning. "Privilege" means something different in a sociological context. I just informed you of that.
I don't know what else to say other than to go through what your English teacher was supposed to teach you when you were 9 years old, but just because they somehow got paid without doing their job I'm not going to do it for free. (Ooooo see I can be passive aggressive as well)
[–]reLincolnX0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
You guys complain about how women communicate, but this is one of the most bitchily passive aggressive things I've ever read. "Thanks for confirming all the things I already knew to be true. I'll file this one in the self-righteous spunk bank. wink "
You guys complain about how women communicate, but this is one of the most bitchily passive aggressive things I've ever read.
"Thanks for confirming all the things I already knew to be true. I'll file this one in the self-righteous spunk bank.
wink
"
Honestly, I'm sorry about that. I acted like a pussy. You're right to call me out on this. But you should read your like-minded friends, they are also very good at it...
No, it's actually what you're doing. I could go on explaining to you what we call "victimhood" and the "Olympic of Suffering" but since you have it harder than me I fear you won't take it seriously... You seem to be a good girl, you should maybe give it a look...
Ah yes, I know dear, sociology is a social science without political ideologies shreds into it. It's like Gender Studies or Ethnic Studies... It's politicly neutral...
You're great at being passive-aggressive. I like it, keep going
[–]Kellkur0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (28 children) | Copy Link
If you say "As a white person, I don't see a problem with that, work harder", you are speaking from a position of privilege. Because if you were in that situation, you would not have to overcome that barrier.
And you know that how? This is the thing I don't get with feminists you women think what all of us men experience no matter what and more so think it is a universal experience. The same applies to women where you feminists think all women are victims and never had any privilege.
At least it offers a framework of understanding both perspectives as those of conscious humans?
Feminism doesn't even offer any framework. It offers a religious view point from the female point of view. As afterall feminism was created by women for women from the female point of view. I mean feminists get so much stuff wrong when it comes to men and our experience its not even funny. But again feminists don't care to listen or hear men out, but demand men listen and shut up when it comes to women telling men how women are always the victim and men are always the oppressor. And feminists wonder why the manosphere is growing
it still really means something for a man to say you have human worth, even if he wouldn't 'select you as a mate'.
Do you not think the same applies to men? I would argue women are overall valued more than men are. As there's a reason male disposability is a thing but not female disposability.
But unless you're willing to actually listen to my explaining why we maybe don't 'get' that other human decency is meaningless, and just shout "NO! NO YOUR LIFE IS EASY!" - I can't take you seriously.
And that's the kicker. You want us to listen but you don't want to listen in return. Yes I know men here rant and rave all the time, but its one of the few places that we can as we know as long as we obey the rules we wont' be banned.
[–]catemlBlue Pill Woman0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago* (27 children) | Copy Link
And you know that how?
Because if the barrier you'd have to overcome is "The barrier that specifically black people face for being black in that circumstance", and you're not black - by very definition you're not going to experience it. You might experience a barrier for other reasons, but not related to being black.
It seems 'well that is just tautological!'. You're correct - it's a word describing a social phenomena, which explicitly acknowledges that phenomena as being dependent on an oppression existing.
So you can argue "I don't have White Privilege because black people don't experience oppression related to being black, I don't believe in systemic racism at all, just a few bad person racists who have no real impact on black people's lives". I might disagree with you there about systemic racism and the amount of/impact of racism. But the "I don't have White Privilege because..." bit would indeed be a correct assumption based on your later premise. Yeah, fine.
"I don't have White Privilege because my life is hard, in fact harder than a lot of black people" isn't an argument against 'White Privilege'. Because... you might be entirely correct about the second part, but your conclusion doesn't follow from it.
I thought it did apply to men. Until (some of) those men were like "WE DON'T CARE UNLESS YOU SEX WITH US! HYPOCRITE!". Maybe we're misunderstanding each other, and those men aren't representative.
BUT
I do get that maybe you feel "people just keep telling me feminism is for me as well, and that all my ideas about my oppression/suffering have to fit into their ideas or I'm wrong, but it seems to be that it isn't enough and they're not really listening". OK. Fair and maybe even valid point. But also I'm used to being barraged with "BUT WHAT ABOUT MEN!!" points that were very clearly in no way in good faith, but about thinking I'm an uppity bitch and should just shut the fuck up. So... I'm open to the idea that maybe you sometimes have reason to be dismissive of me, and if you're open to the idea that I sometimes have reason to be dismissive of you... we can move on.
A lot of the time I try and have a conversation about the above points, which as I laid out many of which I agree with, I just get a lecture about how I'm just another deluded SJW snowflake bitch the moment I disagree with anything. That doesn't seem productive, or fair - if I'm trying to engage with their account of their own experiences and then they just keep insisting my account of my own is brainwashed delusion. I'm not a perfect saint who must be right about all this, and I probably can be dismissive of experiences I don't understand... but I'm also not going to be responsive to being lectured about how I'm just full of shit with all this. Because I'm pretty sure I'm not.
.....
I've typed all this out because I believe that some of the people who say "All I'm looking for is some respect and compassion" - both self identified 'MRAs' and 'incels' but also just generally sad and angry men - do genuinely mean it, and maybe we've had our wires crossed. So I wanted to put out there where I'm coming from - and maybe if I lay out some of the places I agree (and some I don't, just incase they're deal breakers), they'll be more likely to think I'm not just coming at them aggressively.
I can say with my hand on my heart, that if what you're looking for is someone to listen and to try and be kind and to work together in us both making sense of it all... I want to do that. You can think I'm lying about that. But I don't know what else I can say? I'm trying to 'show with my actions and not just my words'. I just... can't do that by just straight up agreeing with takes that I don't think to be correct, and it isn't fair to expect that.
[–]Kellkur0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (26 children) | Copy Link
You don't need to be oppressed to not have privilege. More so the whole privilege thing is really is do you have advantage over someone else. If so your privileged. Somehow feminists don't seem to get this and blow up privilege into a whole boogieman. I can only wager they do because heaven forbid feminists admit to women having privilege for being a woman. Prime example women getting less prison time for the same crime. Even though feminists acknowledge that issue they never admit to it being female privilege, its benevolent sexism because of course women can't be privilege as according to feminism women have no power as if you need power to be privileged.
I might disagree with you there about systemic racism and the amount of/impact of racism. But the "I don't have White Privilege because..." bit would indeed be a correct assumption based on your later premise. Yeah, fine.
So me saying I don't have white privilege because where I live I am a minority as a white person is fine?
Am I going to agree that it's 'fair' and 'natural' to allow one half of the population less bodily autonomy/sexual rights/socially pressure them away from their own sexual agency because "80/20 rule and I don't have a girlfriend".
One the 80/20 rule is idiotic. Incels and RPers cling to it because they think looks is the only way to get women as a man. That isn't to say women more and more aren't pushing for men to look more physically attractive though as they are. And everyone has sexual agency, but that doesn't mean everyone wants to have sex with you either.
I think that our (feminists) arguments and efforts in that area were, and continue to be, valid and justified.
That is obvious. I also notice you said nothing about stopping the whole women have it worse, so I can only wager you think women no matter what have it worse than men. To that I say do some research and actually inform yourself. I don't think men have it worse than women. I think each gender have it worse in various ways. And its not all due to men and masculinity (ie toxic masculinity) like you feminists think it is.
Basically I agree that 'oppression olympics' discussions aren't going to get us anywhere, so I'll stop with all that if you will.
So why even start it?
That doesn't seem productive, or fair - if I'm trying to engage with their account of their own experiences and then they just keep insisting my account of my own is brainwashed delusion.
It may not be productive, but if you at all can look at what feminists say and think how a non feminist will take it. As saying things like the "partracy" (which doesn't exist) and what have you are going to be seen and be taken differently by others. You feminists have a huge problem with not learning how to talk to non feminists. This is besides basically all of your theories and stuff on gender is well crap. I and others can tear up nearly all feminist ideology because so much of it is from academia which is so far removed from reality its not funny. More so all of feminism itself is from the female point of view. There is no male point of view within feminism. So feminist view of the world is from the female point of view. You even admit you don't know what my experience is like yet you feminists want to blame masculinity, for men's issues. You feminists never want to hold women accountable for anything just the men. This among other reasons is why anti feminists call bullshit. Especially when we see the same talking points over and over again all with the same lies behind them.
that if what you're looking for is someone to listen
With the whole listening thing, in my experience when feminists say they want men to listen to women its men need to shut up sit down and listen. Its a one way conversation that is really a lecture on how men are bad and women are the real victims. If you and more so feminism in general to make actual progression, you going to need to get feminists to listen to men. You have men now who want to speak out on their issues. Ya some go whatabout the men, but its not like feminists do that all the time with women's issues when men's issues come up. But if you want to make progress actually engage with the men who go whatabout the men. More often not if you show you do want to converse they will. As its those men who want to be heard. And I wager a good portion of those men have been hurt. You know the very men you feminists claim to want to help but don't?
[–]catemlBlue Pill Woman0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago* (23 children) | Copy Link
You don't need to be oppressed to not have privilege.
You do. In this context. The one people are talking about when they say 'white privilege' 'male privilege' etc.
Not in the more general non-sociological term of 'privilege', aka 'holistically as an individual, you have been more lucky in life than most'. But that is a different kind of privilege.
where I live I am a minority as a white person
'Minority' being another word that has different contextual meanings.
It can mean a numerical minority, which is I assume the way you're using it. "There are more of the people in that group present than the are of the people in the group I'm in present". But when used social sense it tends to refer to a power minority - where it means the amount of wider social influence or general social clout due to being in one group (acting in your group's and therefore your own interests) or another. 'Power minorities' do tend to also be numerical minorities, at least in wider society, but not always. So say a US community can be 60% black people, but they can still be 'a minority', as long as systemic racism still exists.
You might think the language is dumb and misleading. You wouldn't be the only one to think that. (Personally I think its actually useful and clever in the way that it makes you confront your expectations, and consider the world from the perspective of other social statuses rather than just about your own individual life. But whatever.) It must however be acknowledged that this isn't just something that 'SJWs' came up with yesterday - the language has been used in this way for ages.
You're still using the words 'wrong', if you actually mean to speak to the people using them about the concept they are referring to. And that isn't necessarily your fault at all - how are you to know what a word means in a context unless you've encountered that word in that context before?
Just all over the place I see the exact same type argument: "Privilege... [uses one meaning of privilege]" "This person is wrong! Because [uses arguments that only hold if you use the word differently]."
And it's obviously silly.
In terms of this thread or this subreddit... I didn't. I don't like that shit.
When it's a conversation between 'MRAs'/'TRP'/etc, it tends to be in response to statements along the lines of: "Because the feminazis have gone too far and now its clearly far worse to be a man! Only a total idiot can't see that being a woman is fantastic and being a man is shit in todays society!".
However - has there been a history of some feminists getting 'oppression olympics' when someone has raises a legitimate social issue not to do with the patriarchy? Absolutely. I've seen it as well.
There are the moneyed white feminists who will insist that if we had more female CEOs, all of everyone's problems would just magically get fixed, and are seemingly oblivious to the teensy little bias they might have there. They are absolutely a thing. Luckily - the other 'SJWs' hate them as well. I think people have got a lot better at quickly pointing out the bullshit and moving on, though, in the last decade or so. For all the hate 'intersectional feminism' gets, it's a really useful tool for confronting those who are ranting about how another person's power means they can't understand the problems, while refusing to acknowledge their own privileges.
Thats where the whole 'check your privilege!' meme comes from. It's not mainly said to poor unsuspecting dudes just going about their day. It's mainly something the feminazi SJW BLM activist neo-Marxist vegans are shouting at each other during The Discourse in the echo chamber.
The reason why I struggle to take the 'anti-feminist' (as opposed to people just disagree with feminist points when they disagree with them) narrative seriously is because it treats 'the feminism' as some monolithic force of propaganda, a unified mass of people who "blame us for all the problems" while never looking to question or criticise within their own ranks. When in reality calling each other out for being 'problematic' is at least a good half of what feminists talk about. It's the main reason why we can never seem to get shit done.
If you're wondering why people can't just... sensibly talk to each other while reflecting on themselves, and instead call each other satan while refusing to admit their own flaws: It's because people are awful, teenagers are especially awful, and Twitter needs to be killed with fire.
Seriously though - there are plenty of actual grownups who have productive conversations about The Society while really doing the whole 'checking their privilege' exercise rather than just shouting it at each other. We're not perfect, and I am not the best of them, their mouthpiece or leader - but I can vouch that they tend to be pretty chill, as long as you don't strut in their raging about how they're delusional nazis who don't care when men get raped.
The self righteous tumblr children might be more fun and easy to mock. But if you think about what you already know about how humans tend to be, you can see how maybe it also applies within the leftist/feminist/'SJW' population, and is just that ol' human tendency to be sometimes be myopic dickheads, rather than the natural conclusion of the ideas themselves. Or "Why the feminisms is wrong and I must stand against it".
because so much of it is from academia which is so far removed from reality its not funny
Academia is useful. Because the world is really complicated and sometimes counter-intuitive, and we need ways to take a step back and understand it. A set of journal papers discussing at great length back and forth whether 'The Language of Privilege' is fit for purpose or counterproductive in light of changing social discourse, can seem totally ridiculous and masturbatory as a response the question "Can I pay my rent month?". Because - yeah. It would be a fucking stupid response to you asking that question.
BUT those papers, as a tiny part of a wider picture of academia, are ways to try and understand. And arguments based on understanding can eventually be pulled back down and applied. To, say, social and economic policy. And that absolutely will have an impact on your "Can I pay my rent this month?" question. It's like how pouring loads of funding into a study about how chiral carbon based molecules can cause light to have a spiral polarisation seems like a waste of money, when people are starving in the world. But it's that kind of detached seeming nonsense that will then help people develop better crops, or medical tech that will save your dad's life. (And its actually an unnecessary choice because we'd have enough money to feed people and do science, if we didn't keep wasting it competing with our neighbours to own the shiniest car, but thats a whole other story...)
Academia can get lost up its own arse, and happily continue to waffle around ignoring things that actually matter to people. Plus its obviously a privilege question as well - people who work 3 jobs to support their disabled mother general aren't the ones with the time to write the papers. But that isn't news to 'The Feminists' anymore than its news to the rest of us. In fact thats where the whole "We need to listen to the lived experience rather than just waffling about how theoretically people should feel!" comes from.
Academia can be bullshit. But just because it at a glance looks like bullshit doesn't mean it's not a good thing someone is doing it, even if you personally aren't inclined to care about it's content (which is fine). All that information and knowledge works both bottom-up and top-down.
[–]Jaktenba0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
"Poor disabled black gay men are never oppressed because they're men!' is going to get resounding high fives from the rest of modern feminist club?
Yes, that's why "black men are the white men if the black community".
[–]catemlBlue Pill Woman2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
That isn't what intersectional means, though?
As in... based on what I've seen at least, us ol' handwringing white feminist types tend to be very concerned about the "Black men are seen as aggressive and violent as a compounding of toxic masculine and racist stereotypes" thing. While also thinking the patriarchy is a thing and black women experience sexism and racism from inside and out of their community.
Of course there are a good number of feminists who'll proudly wear their "I fight oppression!" badge but are as 'woke' about class and race as your average 70 year old Fox News loving MAGA hat. The same way that some of the most hardcore vodka swilling Marxist radicals won't see any problem with telling the women to go sit in a corner and look pretty while they plan the revolution.
Because We Live In A Society and people are awful.
There is definitely as a whole more awareness of the way that both class and gender constrain people and promote false hierarchies in both spaces, though. Because once you start to realise one set of arbitrary rules about people's 'place' is a prison... you start to look a bit questioningly at the rest as well.
[–]MinskAtLit0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Really nice posts, I enjoyed reading this discussion!
[–]catemlBlue Pill Woman0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Thank you!
[–]Kellkur-1 points0 points1 point 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
that feminism is not a unified force of 'fuck men, and nothing else matters'.
It might as well be.
Its cute you think feminists think intersectionality applies to men as well.
Have you had ANY contact whatsoever with the modern left?
/r/politics is all the contact one needs with the modern left or that video's on Youtube.
manosphere men throwing class oppression in the face of 'women' "ARE YOU SAYING THIS GUY'S LIFE IS GREAT?!?" as if working class women don't exist, because they completely misunderstood what 'privilege' means.
Because when feminists say men are privilege but women are not totally doesn't say working men have it so great right? Maybe feminists should instead frame things better and use better language and drop their generalization. Na that be asking too much and it will go against their narrative. Afterall men are trash and are rapists while women do no harm women like Amber Heard.
[–]Kellkur0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
They don't when it comes to women and how they are the victim. But deny it when it comes to men.
[–]Bntt89-2 points-1 points0 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Their are aspects of society that class purely cannot explain, patriarchy is that aspect just because some women can oppress men doesnt mean it is useless.
[–]Appomattoxx0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
That's valid. But Feminism is just as bad, and is why Trump carried non-college-educated white women by 27 points in 2016.
They do but don't label them as such. Also nursing isn't working class but blue collar.
[–]Zelfrax_14 points15 points16 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Is that... putin?
[–]DKN38 points9 points10 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
No... he is takin’
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[–]SlashCo8021 points22 points23 points 6 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link
That would be Western feminism in a nutshell. There are unfortunately parts of the world where women are genuinely oppressed, sadly they don't get talked about as much.
[–]mrchoon21 points22 points23 points 6 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link
That's because we're not allowed criticize Islam. The bigotry label gets in the way of so many conversations
[–]pixelatedlizardNo Pill1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
Lmao feminism is needed in the west due to the paleocon movements that keep popping up. No matter who's doing it, using your sky daddy as an excuse to limit peooels freedom is shit.
[–]mrchoon2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
Can yiu clarify that for me?
[–]RowBoeCop-1 points0 points1 point 6 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
Conservatives are trying to bring shiara law to America. They have been for decades. Pretty much zero difference between Christianity and Islam they have the same God and the same holy book I mean come on. Literally the only difference is one thinks Jesus is the son of God.
[–]mrchoon1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Would you agree that currently, Islamic culture is more of a problem, where sexism, racism, and homophobia are concerned?
[–]AidsVictim0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Alright, let's rewind to the 1950's. Islamic scholars that came to the US were incredibly shocked at how Western women behaved and mystified the West was considered an enlightened place. This was before any modern feminist movement even though the 50's are often thought of as the apex of post war modern patriarchy. Now let's rewind to the medieval era - how women were treated in the West is still considered a major point of contention between Christianity and Islam, criticizing each other on a ideological level about how much or little freedom women have (I'll let you guess which is which).
These attempts at drawing equivalency are always just lazy.
[–]Herbivore4Life-2 points-1 points0 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Conservatives are trying to do this?!? Are you fucking retarded?!
It’s the Democrats that scream bloody murder when trump places any sort of travel ban on countries with Muslims in it. It is the Democrats that want to bring refugees over from Africa. The Democrats have members in Congress literally advocating for Shaira law, such as super dumb bitch Ilhan Omar.
Muhammed is a child fucking war promoter, Jesus was not.
[–]M0rtAuxRoisvouliez-vous une révolution sans révolution?1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I agree that in modernity Islam is more of a problem than Christianity, but Christianity is still a problem, and while Jesus wasn't a war promoter, he was still a stupid asshole and an apocalyptic prophet. Like, have you read the Bible? Jesus's whole shtick is, "You better love me and daddy when the apocalypse comes or you fucked as fuck dawg." This is one of the primary messages of Jesus and no amount of cherry picking or other theological semantics will make it otherwise.
Jesus does not come to send peace, but a sword. If you want to get heavy on the sword part, that means 'the word of God'. Jesus comes with the word of God, and that word is, "Love me and daddy or you're fucked as fuck dawg." This is the what the Bible says. This is in a primary Gospel, not Revelations or some shit like that. This is a major part of Christianity, included in all major sects of Christianity, and it is gay retard shit no one should care about.
tldr: Islam is whack shit and so is Christianity and all retards on all sides should stop being retards
Conservatives are trying to bring shiara law to America.
lol wut? No they aren't feminists are.
[–]versaceatnight0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
You are "allowed" to criticize Islam lol Hell, you can even say Islam is a steaming pile of shit (which it absolutely is btw). Criticizing a religion isn’t bigotry. But discriminating/hating towards the random individuals who follow a religion simply because of that fact, is bigotry. It’s slightly concerning that this isn’t clear.
Also just btw, idk if it even concerns you or it was other users, but all the sharia law comments further down are complete nonsense, from both parties. It’s so tiring to see people still buy into the same old bs, after all these years. Worry about real issues, not ghost stories and conspiracy theories of sharia law coming to a neighborhood near you. If you tackled the real issues you would never even worry about shit like that to begin with.
[–]AlissonHarlan1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I'm sorry but I live in a first world country, and still have to hear '' to find a husband'' when I wanted a 2 bedrooms apartment. I' m not taking seriously when I'm mad, men went '' you have your periods'' or' you're hot when you're angry''
I' m was told to ignore my brother when he he tickle me '' until he 'll be bored of it and stops' ' (subtle way to learn to women to accept crap from men) and others stories like that
So yes, our situation is far better than in others countries, but we did not reach gender Equality.
Oh and I always paid for my food when dating
[–]ghatchi10 points11 points12 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
That guys v smol
[–]Loopylafae2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
"Part of the problem is that jobs that have been traditionally done by women pay less than traditional male jobs. This is true “regardless of the value of the work to the employer or the consumer.” The more a job is considered ‘women’s work,’ the less it pays. Traditionally male-dominated trades deter women from entering them. To participate fully in society, individuals need a level of resources that is not too far below the norm in that community. Falling markedly behind the community average means effective exclusion from the normal life of society." Statscan.."" However, for women, as indicated, several studies clearly demonstrate that the labour market is tilted against women. In other words, women are disproportionately affected by precarious employment. Professional women are more likely than their male counterparts to be in precarious work, with women accounting for 60% of all precarious professionals. In 2017, 62% of workers in involuntary part-time employment and 52% of temporary workers were women. " ourcommons. "Women experience poverty at higher rates than men. Men receive more income than women from all sources, including wages and salaries, investment, retirement, and other income. Single mothers have the most unstable earnings and are among the most impoverished people in Canada. There are several reasons why women (and children) live in poverty: Discrimination against women in gaining access to paid work and a fair income. Sex-role stereotypes about women's involvement in paid work. women account for 70% of all part-time employees and two-thirds of women are employed within traditionally women-dominated occupations. A change in family composition, such as a divorce, greatly increases a woman's chance of entering poverty. Intersectionality: Aboriginal women, racialized women, disabled women and queer women are more likely to live in poverty than white women, able-bodied women and heterosexual women. In Canada, women are at greater risk of poverty than men becauImagese of their gender. Social constructions of gender ideas about what it means to be a woman also contribute to women's poverty. Because of stereotypes about women's nature and their ability and desire to act as caregivers, women are disproportionately responsible for unpaid caregiving labour, for example looking after children or aging or ill family members. Women are frequently dependent on men for financial support, which makes them vulnerable to exploitation and to poverty if the relationship with the man breaks down."...". Low-income measures are thresholds that define households as low income if their adjusted income is less than half of the median,Note36 where "adjusted" means that the number of persons living in the household has been taken into account.Note37 While the preceding sections reported total income (before tax), this section uses low-income measures after tax to identify affected households.
Women are more vulnerable to low income than men, for a number of reasons. For one thing, women are paid less than men with the same qualifications, even when they work the same number of hours.Note38 Traditionally-femaleoccupations have lower average hourly wages than traditionally-male occupations, even when they require the same skill level.Note39 Women are also overrepresented in low-paying occupations.Note40 On the home front, women are more likely than men to care for children and elderly or disabled family members. Combining earning and caring roles is challenging, so women are more likely than men to reduce their work hours or take time out of the workforce to care for family.Note41….Since 1995, the gender gap in low income among seniors has increased to some extent, as the proportion of older women living in a low-income household increased at a faster pace (11.6 percentage points) than did the proportion of older men in living in a low-income household (9.1 percentage points).Note43 By 2015, 16.3% of elderly women were in low income, compared with 11.9% of their male counterparts (a difference of 4.4 percentage points).
By comparison, 34.5% of lone mothers and 30.3% of unattached women lived in low-income situations, as did 13.7% of lone fathers and 28.1% of unattached men. Notably, low income was more than twice as prevalent among lone mothers as it was among lone fathers (34.5% versus 13.7%, respectively).
" statscan.
[–]Bntt893 points4 points5 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I cant believe I use to think this shit was true I cringe now when I see this. Just because one guy is less rich than two women doesnt mean men dont oppress women. This is such a simplification of things. I guess because Obama was president racism doesnt exist anymore too. Fucking retarded conservatives just stick to economic none that's all you guys have going for you.
[–]Harriett-0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
🙌🏻
[–]Peacheslikeyou11 points12 points13 points 6 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
This is such an old shit meme, incels aren't even trying now god
[–]goldmedalflower0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
Old yes, but is it a shit meme?
One of the gospels of feminism is that women, all women, no matter how wealthy, no matter their lifestyle, are "oppressed victims" and that men, all men, no matter how poorly educated, poverty, physical issues, mental health issues are "privileged".
Think of all the preferential treatment given to women and girls solely because they are female - extreme bias in education, preferential treatment in admissions, hiring, promotions, government contracts, the vast majority of tax dollars spent on women's issues, the vast majority of healthcare dollars spent on women, the mainstream media with endless double standards. The list goes on and on. At every stage in life, they are given the easier path from society.
Yet, just being "female" is all it takes to receive this "oppressed" status?
[–]Peacheslikeyou2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
"oppressed victims" and that men, all men, no matter how poorly educated, poverty, physical issues, mental health issues are "privileged".
No one said that, get that chip off your shoulder ffs.
[–]Peacheslikeyou1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
preferential treatment given to women and girls solely because they are female - extreme bias in education, preferential treatment in admissions, hiring, promotions, government contracts, the vast majority of tax dollars spent on women's issues, the vast majority of healthcare dollars spent on women, the mainstream media with endless double standards. The list goes on and on. At every stage in life, they are given the easier path from society.
> MURICA IS THE ENTIRE WORLD
[–]goldmedalflower0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Of course not. Where feminism is desperately needed like in Africa and the middle east, feminists barely exists.
You need this spoon fed to you? Do I really need to add "in Western cultures..." to every post?
[–]Peacheslikeyou1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Half of European countries don't have the shit you mentioned either retard
[–]basiliskgf2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
please do not conflate statements regarding the overall sociological role of a group as describing every single individual in particular
as there are clearly much more working class women that compose the subject of feminism, it is dishonest to claim feminism is about bourgeoisie women
if you want to actually debate us and not a strawman that only exists inside your head, then engage with the point actually being made
[–]Shadow_Of_Chad-Lite[S] 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
This is such an old shit meme
Old? Yes. Shit? No.
[–]JohnGoBuffaloBills8 points9 points10 points 6 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link
Them: Dress like a slut to attract CHAD
Me: Accidentally glance in their direction
OMG STOP RAPING ME!!!!
[–]Osmosis_Flows12 points13 points14 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Incels took over fast...
[–]VixDzn17 points18 points19 points 6 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
Ah so ppd has turned into another incel haven
[–]miss_meeseeks5 points6 points7 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Literally the moment they shut down TRP.
[–]Peacheslikeyou8 points9 points10 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
didn't take long lol
[–]ieatassonfirstdate0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
difference is that here you can actually have a debate
[–]VixDzn2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Except you really can't lol, nothing of value is said here. It's just fun to look at the zoo animals that are incels
[–]ieatassonfirstdate1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
for example, in other subs you would get banned for a comment like that. maybe even considered hate speach.
here, it will stay up and maybe someone has something of value to reply with.
[–]VixDzn0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Something of value, mhm, well haven't found any yet but fair enough
[–]Suck-Less3 points4 points5 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Only feminism could turn a word as horrible as rape into an eye rolling statement.
[–]ChadThundagaCockBorderline Personality Wrangler8 points9 points10 points 6 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
This is true though. In all seriousness. Purge be damned. I'd like to see them deny it. Spoiled bratty children.
[–]JohnGoBuffaloBills8 points9 points10 points 6 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
Modern women are the most privileged class in all human history. Like literally the whole world is catered for them. But it's still not enough because CHAD ISN'T FUCKING THEM!!!!
[–]Osmosis_Flows6 points7 points8 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Damn you've completely lost your mind in order to cope. The world is extremely cruel to ugly people, that is true. But all this other strange criticism is just cope so you don't feel like you're missing out.
[–]Peacheslikeyou2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
'WAH WAH WAH CHAAAAD WAAAAAAAH'
[–]Shadow_Of_Chad-Lite[S] 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Chad? It's Chads fault? I kinda feel sorry for Chad at times, he has to deal with their bullshit the most.
[–]sharonofcardup1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
How so?
[–]catemlBlue Pill Woman1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
They would, but they're pretty tired because they're on the way back from a busy day of wiping shit off that guy's infirm grandmother's ass.
[–]johnxwalkerNo Pill3 points4 points5 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Men are the builders of the house, women just move in.
[–]an_angry_witch0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
feminism is liberation from men, not being same as men. please, educate yourself.
and also, women wanted to enter craft but men made it unbearable for them. they literally pushed women out of the fields. stop embarrassing yourself, dear women-haters.
[–]PlanetSquare0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
He looks so miserable :C
[–]Shadow_Of_Chad-Lite[S] -1 points0 points1 point 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
>Female
>feels empathy
Are you sure you're a woman?
[–]PlanetSquare0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Yeah but I'm an autist if that explains anything
“Omg a man is working and two women walking, feminism debunked!1!!”
Anti-feminists “arguments” are the most retarded shits I’ve ever seen ffs. Pure cringe.
[–]petrichordiumdidnt know it was a devil town0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
This is obviously a slavic meme bc the girls are hot / not fat and the infrastructure is even worse than the USA
[–]Bright_ItempasBlue Pill Woman0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
It's funny cuz the women are white.
[–]darudeboysandstormHaving Instagram makes you a thot7 points8 points9 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I mean what do you think feminism is
[–]boomcheese44-3 points-2 points-1 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Yep, as it should be.
[–]ghatchi-1 points0 points1 point 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
True
[–]utrastalin-1 points0 points1 point 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Crush your balls when you sit on the train bigot
[–]Sid_Insidious-1 points0 points1 point 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
She refuses to do that job because most CERTAINLY she won't get paid the same! (Ya, right.... that's why...)
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