looking for debate on this article

BirdManBrrrr · 2018-03-20T15:14:13+00:00

Only in leftist, psuedo-feminist publications can an author write volumes expressing a simple concept with such pompous self importance. I made it halfway through the article before giving up.

I've asserted there is no model for masculinity in the modern age; overly verbose and dramatic puff pieces such as the linked article merely bash any cherry picked expression of masculinity (Trump, Putin, Stallone, whatever) without 1. prescribing a new model other than "men need to express their emotions" and 2. prescribing a model that works in mating.

To point #1, its simply "be more like girls, k?". This was in The Guardian last week.

To point #2: enter failed attempts at attraction, relationships, dead bedrooms, and deeply unhappy husbands who thought they did everything right but their wife won't fuck them.

Furthermore, the new generation of millennial hipsters and low testosterone soyboys with little masculine presence leave women in these esteemed publications periodically lamenting "Where are all the Real Men!", but beautifully missing the irony of their creation. "Why can't he hang a picture on the wall omg he doesn't know how to use tools!" Women are attracted to masculine men, duh.

wekacuck · 2018-03-20T14:07:22+00:00

Roles can be challenged and should be but what really bugs me about this article is how it doesn't stop at challenging roles it challenges the male body. I think it's really, really stupid to be pushing these ideas that attraction can be fucked with a lot and encouraging men to roll the dice on it. Sure, women have challenged grooming and style habits but does anyone argue that women should just go ahead and cut off their breasts because in the modern world we have formula and breasts are functionally not really needed? I don't see anyone pushing abandonment of the female body.

crackrocksteady7 · 2018-03-20T14:14:37+00:00

What a rambling mess

I'd like to hear others view on the idea that masculinity has a reduced role in modern society

I don't think so, there's a million outlets for being hyper competitive etc etc. Most corporations are structured similarly to a military hierarchy

cattermelon34 · 2018-03-20T14:36:38+00:00

Masculinity has absolutely been reduced in society. That's because it's been over represented til now. Women and femininity have been actively been pushed into the background until the last couple of decades. This isn't an "attack on masculinity" it's men not having as much power as before. When you're used to having all the power any decrease feels like an attack. Look at Fundamentalist Christians today. They're facing a similar "problem."

Really the root of the problem is gender being so rigidly enforced that it causes actual psychological distress to break norms, mostly in men. I live and grew up in the midwest and I assure you "Boys do this and girls do this" is alive and well and it's to everyone's detriment. I know men who are too embarrassed to buy tampons. I know men who wont drink fruity drinks because it's girly(regardless of the fact that they're delicious). It's ridiculous.

We can say all we want that men and women are free to do whatever they want. It's true in a literal sense, but not a realistic one.

concacanca · 2018-03-20T14:19:38+00:00

I make it a habit to reject everything suggested by the Guardian these days. They are just as bad as the Daily Mail.

You are perfectly free to reject male traditional roles if you want but its not like a lot of men already arent trying to do that. Unfortunately for you, society rewards traditional masculinity with women, status and position. Until you can condition everyone (and I vehemently hate social engineering) to react the same to everyone then you are royally fucked.

MisterJose · 2018-03-20T15:53:47+00:00

I often get women commenting on my ability to lift things, open jars, or whatever. But that's all it is nowadays: A gimmick. You don't need me to build our shelter or guard against invaders. It's an obsolete skill to be strong.

The other awkward skill I have is being calm in a crisis. My nightmare is a cubicle routine in which nothing changes, and I never get to be 'in the moment'. Disaster strikes, and I'm in the moment. It's a relief, and I get calmer. Some social scientists link this to a kind of 'hunter brain', and I don't know how you feel about that. What I do think is true is that there are men who find a home in certain jobs that are physical and intense, like crab trawlers or coal mines, and feel like they could never be comfortable in the cubicle space that takes up increasing amounts of modern life.

As far as TRP goes, I would argue there are certain ways men are, and certain thoughts they have, that are not due to the pressure of someone saying they should be that way. A basic example is any time I have a 'don't have time to bleed' kind of attitude about something. I've got shit to do, somewhere to be, no way to get out of that, and so my priorities are not my own discomfort. Fuck it, doesn't matter. My mother used to deride it as some kind of macho foolishness; a put-on. But I wasn't trying to seem tough, I just was tough in that way, at that time. Testosterone is a hell of a drug.

My final thought would be to link you an old Bill Maher clip about feminism that I relate to a lot. The ideas that the feminine values are becoming universal values, seems true to me. "Commitment is more important than individuality," - you see 100 articles talking about how men who don't want to commit are emotionally stunted children, not that it's simply a different ideal about what is desired in life. "safety is more important than fun," - this is a big one for me. Sure, we can pass 1000 rules and live in a world or office space where slightly less incidents like offense and harassment happen...but isn't that, if nothing else, unbearably boring!? I don't want complete safety, I want stimulation. I want a life where crazy, exciting shit happens sometimes. The part of me that finds no better medicine than to find a clear road at night and step on the accelerator, seems less and less acceptable in modern society. My theory is that it has something to do with the increased levels of anxiety and depression in younger people, which cause them to focus their attention and be especially sensitive to things that could go wrong.

Dubslav_von_Chekem · 2018-03-20T15:11:20+00:00

It's lowbrow outrage bait, the favored tactic of the trashy British press. I did get angry at points, but then I remembered that this is the Guardian. Would I get angry at the Sun talking about fucking pastries? No. So why should I get angry over this?

Prolefeed is not the place for sophisticated, nuanced views.

Electra_Cute · 2018-03-20T14:23:10+00:00

The muscles of men build the machines that beget their own atrophy.

How can these traditionally masculine men be "built", what is the drive for it? When there is no consequence, there is no concern to strive. The idea that the middle-class culture can produce this neo-masculine ideal is so farcical in its nature. There is no "crisis" in modern masculine, these middle-upper class bubbles just have no room for the negative parts of traditional masculinity or even the positive parts.

S1imdragxn · 2018-03-20T15:30:29+00:00

There is no venturing outside

There’s just masculinity adapting to new conditions

The core virtues of masculinity like strength, bravery and forthrightness remain intact, the modality of expression changes

quicklogaccount · 2018-03-20T18:38:55+00:00

This was an awful read. Pedantic authors, whether leftist or right, are a pain in their incurable habit of repeating themselves over and over. The author does it ad nauseam.

Either way, about the article:
In his eagerness to dismantle the "elusive lie" of modern masculinity, the author persistently does something feminism so patiently sought to stop society from doing to women: Tells and arguments about what is natural and what is "oppressively taught" and comes with no solution at all.
Modern leftism keeps falling in a lie Ortega Y Gasset wisely noticed in 1929. That if someone lacks something, it is because someone is stealing it from him, for everything one wants is his right. The author isn't any different, saying that if women aren't happy, it is because men are stealing from them.

On the idea about a crisis in masculinity:
Yep, there is. Work, take chances and thrive all lie in the core of masculinity, and we, as a society, are putting effort to make "taking chances" a bad choice, as we're increasingly agreeing that the "state" must be burdened with risks of failure. I won't bother discussing how, I'll assume we all know the flaw on this strategy.
As we increasingly disincentive people from being bold taking chances seeking to prevent them from being frustrated by the failures, we also disincentive masculinity. As we increasingly label those who seek to endeavor as an exploiter, masculinity increasingly becomes an aesthetic choice.

Women fight viciously against any norm that obligates them in any fashion towards the society. It's time for men to do the same and fight for the right every man has to do what he wants, shaming women that "prefer" any sort of man at all.
Shit shall solve itself when everyone embraces it.

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abaxeron · 2018-03-20T18:36:54+00:00

The only difference between different, as BirdManBrrrr has put it, "pseudo-feminist" articles is the rate of circular reasoning and cognitive dissonance.

First, you define manhood as bad, then, you go through leap of faith and proclaim that bad things are caused by manhood. And before you jump in, No, the anti-male pseudo-intellectuals make no difference between maleness and masculinity.

Men's innovations in the traditionally female-dominated field of obstetric care alone have saved innumerable lives. Which woman can name at least three of these men without looking into Wikipedia first? "Crisis of masculinity" is nothing more or less than crisis of education system. Edward Jenner, the inventor of smallpox vaccine, has saved most probably more lives than all violence of 20th century combined has taken. How many paragraphs did he occupy in your history coursebook? How many did Hitler?

This silly, lame, pathetic attempt at tying Western masculinity with imperialism and racism - is so baseless that it doesn't deserve much criticism, except maybe pointing out: the idea that men divide and hate each other and the idea that men are united in their contempt and disdain for women and LGBTfolk - are mutually exclusive. The author, being the proud Pee Oh Cee he definitely is, maybe should look at the modern map of slavery and name me one predominantly White country that made it into top 10.

You cannot blame men for inventing war in prehistoric times, and at the same time consider it a divine prophecy to have a wet dream about ancient all-female Amazonian armies. You cannot claim that the crisis of masculinity is the reason for skyrocketing violence in the world, and at the same time claim that masculinity has always been tied to violence. But, as my wonderful lesbian buddy once pointed out, it is very, VERY hard to lay down arguments against something that is obviously wrong, because the opponent has already established themselves as some sort of tinfoil priest, and you know that any flaw in your reasoning will be immediately sucked dry and will magically turn their tinfoil hat thicker.

Have a video with Globglogabgalab, the singing and dancing book worm. It will be the great addition to the suffering we all had to go through while reading this article.

sign_of_reality · 2018-03-20T18:38:55+00:00

Anything is really in crisis nowadays, if you look at it closely enough. Its because there are world-wide transitions happening on epic scales everywhere. The whole world is falling apart screaming, in some way or other.

Interesting read. :)

gasparddelanuit · 2018-03-21T03:27:12+00:00

There is no one answer. People are different and men are different. I agree that men should be free to venture outside of traditional masculine roles, but I also agree that they should be free to adhere to them too.

Neither should be shamed or discouraged. Both should be viable options, depending on who a particular man is, what he wants to do, what his ambitions are and what he finds effective. That means hyper-masculinity or traditional masculinity stays, if men want to pursue that course. There's nothing wrong with that, provided it's not destructive.

We should not be forcing or brainwashing men into masculine templates that they do not want and do not choose for themselves. All options should be on the table, then each man can make their own free choice or gravitate to what suits them best.

The issue with feminism is that it seeks to empower women by disempowering men, so wants to see the back of traditional masculinity. It wants to see more men in women’s roles and more women in men’s roles, towards its vision of equality. The problem is that this is not good for most men, who naturally lean more towards the masculine and not the gynocentric arrangements that feminists prefer.

When it comes to sexual attraction, women also prefer masculine men, so venturing too far outside of traditional masculinity will result in less mating success for the man in question. As long as that remains the case, traditional masculinity will remain a strong male inclination and preference. That’s assuming sexual alternatives, outside of traditional dating, do not become the preferred sexual option for most men.

Title	looking for debate on this article
Author	itchman
Upvotes	0
Comments	61
Date	March 20, 2018 1:51 PM UTC (8 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/85supe/looking_for_debate_on_this_article/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/looking-for-debate-on-this-article.263180 https://theredarchive.com/post/263180

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