TRP, PPD and Cheating | PurplePillDebate

cuittler · 2014-05-22T16:23:20+00:00

The other day /u/Denswend offered to post in trp on the topic of cheating. I'd like to thank /u/Denswend for keeping their word and making this post, it...

[–]Archwinger[🍰] 26 points27 points28 points 12 years ago (41 children) | Copy Link

This isn't a surprising result at all.

The most vocal contingent of The Red Pill eschews commitment, marriage, and long term relationships in general. They prefer to date and have sex casually with a number of women, don't lie to any of them about being exclusive, and if the women aren't okay with that then they can always quit.

The second most vocal contingent of The Red Pill wants to make a long term relationship or marriage that works, and doesn't end with getting cheated on or dumped/divorced. That means being the man in the relationship, and dating/marrying someone who's okay with being the woman in the relationship. That also means not cheating on your woman, because you're trying to make a relationship that works.

What OP probably expected to see more of was the loud, angry, but small minority of The Red Pill. Guys who will preach, "Men can cheat but women can't, because of biology and evolution! There's no need to be morally right, respectful, or a decent human being toward women because women suck and are inferior children incapable of any positive qualities whatsoever and they're all super-sluts!" While those guys exist and are tolerated, you'll find that the large majority of Red Pill guys are strong advocates of honest and open relationships. Just saying what they want, whether it's non-exclusive causal sex or a relationship with certain boundaries, and going for it. Part of becoming a better man is being honest about what you want and valuing yourself highly enough to go for it rather than sacrificing what you want just to get yourself a girlfriend -- that's manipulative.

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[–]Those_Who_RemainIrrelevant Homosexual0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

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[–]pk_atheist 4 points4 points4 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

My experience tells me that women want a man that is strong and independent, somebody they can look up to and feel safe around. Feeling safe is a major factor for women.

They simply don't feel these things around men they don't respect.

Whereas on the flip side, men are attracted to women who are feminine, kind, and receptive. They want to protect women, it's a natural instinct.

Men don't want to butt heads with women.

I feel as though this is pretty self evident. I realize there is no peer reviewed article on this, but if we are to speak frankly, I would love to hear a rebuttal that doesn't amount to "but I know somebody who is the opposite!"

I realize there are exceptions to all rules, but that doesn't mean what I've described here isn't the common rule. It's very common. You can bet on these things being true- and that's what red pillers do. They bet on these things being true because it gives them the best chance of success.

[–]Those_Who_RemainIrrelevant Homosexual1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 12 years ago* [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link

Through trial, error, and pure reason.

For instance, I have never been to the moon, but I can extrapolate what I know about the moon, space, and smaller masses to determine what might happen if I were on the moon...

Likewise, I understand these things about women by simply watching how they act around me, how they act with other people, watching how what they do tends to differ from what they say, how they treat their boyfriends/friends/family.

It's not a stretch to put it into an evolutionary context and attempt to synthesize information based on that.

Not to say it's absolutely factual once we arrive at a theory, but if it holds up to the scrutiny of testing, and describes interactions better than any previous theories, I (we) adapt them and keep going.

Just because it seems difficult to arrive where we are, doesn't mean we don't have solid reasoning behind it.

Ultimately, the main complaint anybody has with this method is the exact same critique I could use against not using red pill. For instance, just as you think we don't know for sure what women like, I know for a fact you have just as little actual proof. There is no peer reviewed study that says "women don't like men they can control" just like there isn't one that says "women DO like men they can control..."

So we've already entered into a realm where ideas and information have to be extrapolated and synthesized in order to make any practical decisions, no matter who you are, or what you believe.

You can disagree with every opinion I have, but you must realize that you're using the same heuristics I do to come to your conclusions.

So why not dispense of the useless pretext entirely, and discuss the merits of the ideas?

Have you ever seen a man who is "whipped?" How would you describe the relationship? Passionate?

[–]Those_Who_Remain4 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]pk_atheist1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Except that my conclusion is that I do not have the answers since there are too many variables, and TRP claims to have the answers based on very limited and specific samples.

This is not useful for anybody who wants to date. You can't just stop dating because you don't know.

All women? Or a very specific sub-set of women? Do you truly believe that TRPs experience with women applies to the majority? I strongly beg to differ.

I believe that most of my observations have broad implications of how women are put together, and only vary in degree from one to the next. For instance, all women like muscular men, but to what degree can vary. This isn't much of a leap in logic, and further, it is irrelevant if you beg to differ if you don't have a theory that describes the phenomenon better, because that's the point of theorizing. Saying "everybody is different" is suggesting patterns can't emerge, which by the way is logically consistent with "Everything is random." Behavioral psychology is a controversial field, but despite this, there is no prevalent theory that humans are just plainly random.

[–]myfriendscantknowAgent Orangered (BP Man)1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 12 years ago* [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link

I beg to differ. I live in the USA, and I spin a soft harem.

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[–]Archwinger[🍰] 9 points10 points11 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

...wants to make a long term relationship or marriage that works...

I would argue this is something many people outside of trp want as well.

Definitely. Men who subscribe to The Red Pill are not the only ones who want successful relationships. Everyone does.

But the topic at hand was whether it's surprising that TRP men aren't strongly in favor of cheating. Given the large number of TRP men that advocate for casual relationships with multiple women (and being open about it) and the large number looking for a successful LTR or marriage, it's definitely no surprise.

...being honest about what you want...

I don't think this is limited to men.

Definitely not. The world would be a better place if everyone was honest and everyone had self-respect. But given that honesty about what you want and having enough self-respect to try to attain it are values strongly encouraged by TRP, it's no surprise that so many TRP men aren't in favor of using dishonesty to trick women. It's not just disrespectful to the woman. It's disrespectful to yourself.

[–]cuittlerಠ_ಠ[S] 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–][deleted] 12 years ago* [recovered] (4 children) | Copy Link

The reason this strategy of "what about the women" is irrelevant here is because of the perceived imbalance of power. Nobody is asking what women want or if they can get it, since in this case it's already assumed that women have been very good at realizing their strategies. Women have been calling the shots quite well, and given that they are of higher value in the sexual market (men are expendable), it doesn't even make sense to ask the question of whether women want/need a conscious strategy.

As it stands, without being consciously aware of their own strategies, women are able to optimize hypergamy, have sex with as many men as they'd like, bag a provider, and get cash prizes in a divorce.

It is men, and specifically men, who require the introspection and strategy to find success, lest they fall prey to female hypergamy.

[–][deleted] 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

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[–][deleted] 12 years ago* [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

Answer me this: Where is the controversial female sexual strategy forum?

Even for red pill, very few have joined. What about /r/fpua? A whopping 3k subscribers.

There is truth to what I speak.

The skillset learned by the red pill is borne of necessity. Men who get married and live a long happy life with their wives will never consider needing it. As you can plainly see by the paradigm shift in public attitude (And the manosphere itself), men are realizing that they can't just get along. Reality is demanding they sink or swim. Learn to adapt or fail.

You aren't seeing this for women, and there's a reason. With the upper hand in the mating market, they leave much up to fate and the wind.

Why do female magazines concentrate on things like fate and horoscopes? Because for them, mating is simply trial and error. A man will prove his worth, or he was never worth it to begin with.

That severely stunts the need for any such discussion about what women need/want to do in relationships. That's why conversations like this one are clearly framed for one gender. Because women typically don't even care to have this conversation, let alone think they have a need for it.

Food for thought, there is a difference here.

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It depends on what you mean by "withholding". Either way cheating is still never acceptable, get a divorce or separation if things are irreconcilable. Anyway, about withholding. If one partner is withholding sex as a weapon, a bargaining chip, or to harm their partner than I think that is emotional abuse and would encourage anyone dealing with that to exit the relationship.

If it's a dead bedroom matter, I think conversation is the way to go. Try new things, go to mojoupgrade.com, get some passion back. A lot of the time sex becomes stale and mechanical in a LTR, and the usual result of that in a hetero relationship is the woman losing interest, since physiologically, it requires much more effort to get a woman off. So it becomes entirely pointless for her, but the man still likes to orgasm and likes sex even if it's boring, so it becomes frustrating. Sex and marriage counselors might also be a good idea.

If it's simply a case of different sex drives, or one partner's sex drive taking a nose dive (especially a problem in men), well that sucks. Once again, communication is the best way to tackle this I think, but a lot of insecurity and resentment can come from this situation. This is definitely the hardest one to tackle, but with counseling and communication I think it can still be resolved with compromise on both sides.

At any rate, it is never permissible to cheat, ever. If you are unsatisfied, talk about your sex life, talk about opening up the relationship, or leave the relationship. Breaking a promise of commitment is what weak cowards do.

[–]robestaRed Pill Man4 points5 points6 points 12 years ago (20 children) | Copy Link

Let's do a hypothetical.

A wife is continually refusing to have sex with her husband. The husband tries all different ways to try to generate interest, but she straight up tells him, I'm not interested in sex anymore, get over it. I'll point out that to many people, this is breaking vows.

Now the man makes significantly more money and has children he wants to continue to have in his life, and aside from his wife refusing to take care of his male desires, is generally happy. He doesn't want to risk large alimony, child support, and custody issues.

Is it really that wrong for him to take a mistress? Or should his choice be never to have sex again or be cleaned out financially and lose his children in a divorce?

I feel that with commitment comes a responsibility to your partners sexual needs. If that responsibility is shirked, you're not giving your partner a fair choice.

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[–]Archwinger[🍰] 6 points7 points8 points 12 years ago (28 children) | Copy Link

It's not always so cut and dry regarding what constitutes leading someone on.

If I'm dating six women at once, having sex with all of them, and all six of them know that I'm seeing and fucking other women and am not exclusive with any of them, and I tell each of them, outright, constantly, that I'm not looking for a serious, committed relationship, I'm not doing anything wrong.

Now if one or more of these women I'm dating, despite hearing my clear message, sticks around hoping to change my mind, hoping I'll come around, figuring that eventually, I'll want to date her exclusively, and I know that -- I know that's why one or more of these girls are staying, despite how clear I've been -- would you say I have a duty to end things with any girl I suspect has the wrong idea? To avoid "leading her on?"

Taking things a step farther, what if I don't know whether a girl has the wrong idea? Do I have a duty to look into that? How frequently am I supposed to check on whether a girl is falling for me or whether she remembers the clear and unmistakable communication we had earlier?

[–][deleted] 12 years ago (27 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Archwinger[🍰] 4 points5 points6 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Independent of the specific language used to convey "not an exclusive, committed relationship," like you said, it's up to the woman to build her half of the bridge.

She needs to ask the man where things are going, make what she wants clear, or GTFO. If she sticks around and keeps having no-strings sex with a guy who hasn't committed to her, but also hasn't explicitly told her that he doesn't ever intend to, and she's hoping things will change using sex alone in the absence of communication, that's on her.

That may be where you and I start to differ, actually. Is there an understood implication that if two people are having sex, you are on the path to a committed, exclusive relationship unless someone says otherwise?

Or is the implied understanding that the two of you are just "seeing each other" and "having fun" unless someone says otherwise?

[–]robestaRed Pill Man3 points4 points5 points 12 years ago (24 children) | Copy Link

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[–]cuittlerಠ_ಠ[S] 3 points4 points5 points 12 years ago* (12 children) | Copy Link

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In reality, I haven't once been asked this point blank. Its generally, "so.....what are we." Most women are not that confrontational.

You don't answer yes honestly because you know she'll be less likely to keep fucking you. It's manipulative and dishonest.

If you answer yes, you're shattering the illusion in her head. She's the one who's been manipulative and dishonest, only with herself, not me.

She knows I'm fucking other people. She knows I'm not treating her like a girlfriend. She knows I'm seeing her once every ten days and only on weekdays. She knows she hasn't met my friends and I've avoided meeting hers. She's been rationalizing that I'll come around and only want her if she keeps fucking and blowing me non stop and treating me like gold.

I haven't led her on. I make her feel special when she's with me. When she's with me, she cums her brains out.

It's her illusion. If she thought with her head, she would end things, but she doesn't want that. She loves how I make her feel and she'll take me however she can get me. Its not my responsibility to show this girl reality. She's had it in her face the whole time and her hamster has rationalized it to nonexistence.

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[–]asd1100 -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago* (22 children) | Copy Link

It's not the same thing. The same action has different causes in men or women and therefore the consequences should be different.

I don't think I would be in a relationship with such a low level of attraction in which my partner would entertain the notion of cheating.

It is as permissible for her to have sex with someone as it is for me to hook up with a former girlfriend. I.e. not at all, and if it does happen the relationship is probably over.

Also the reverse: it is as permissible for me to have random sex as it is for her to go on a romantic date with a colleague. Unlikely, and it would be disrespectful, but if it happens it's just a misdemeanor and not a deal breaker.

Within a relationship, people are not just people, we are men and women. We have different emotional needs, behaviors and reactions. It's not nice to say men and women are different, but denying that reality makes any relationship doomed, because our inherent sexual dimorphism is what attracts us, keeps us interested in our partner and enables us to form a meaningfull conection in the first place. Even the most feminist lesbian, wants a partner she is attracted to, and not a friend, she randomly asks to have sex with.

[–]cuittlerಠ_ಠ[S] 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (20 children) | Copy Link

[–]asd1100 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (19 children) | Copy Link

Action, having sex(female participant does not stop it). Cause for men, a atractive waitress happened to be overly flirty and he wanted to see if he can conquer that. Cause for women, she doesn't love the man anymore, which by it's can be extremely contexual. Basically the relationship is broke.

Action, spending a business weekend with a colegue and escalating romantically to sex, but no liquids got exchanged(evidently because the female participant stopped). Cause for a man, he doesn't feel loved anymore, again more complex and underlying issues. the relationship is broke. Cause for a woman, her colleague was charming, they had fun and shared chemistry and she wanted to see where the night leads.

I learned to read chemistry and I find nothing more pathetic than being in a bad relationship just to be in a relationship. Of course I could be blind sighted, just that I don't let things get that bad and when they do as a red piler I understand it's more about the relationship than the partner and I don't fear parting ways.

I answered twice: It is as permissible for her to have sex with someone as it is for me to hook up with a former girlfriend. I.e. not at all, and if it does happen the relationship is probably over.

I choose my words in this way because the commitment of a person to a relationship has nothing to do with the "crime" of his partner. Some relationships would fall apart after a "misdemeanor" while others "survive" years of repeated offenses.

To protect.

[–]cuittlerಠ_ಠ[S] 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

[–]asd1100 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

Yes, I am applying a double measure, did you even bother to read my first comment?

The "crime", the breaking of the commitment, hurts the other person diferently whether he is a man or a woman. Because within a normal relationship, we get different things from one another.

A woman values a emotional commitment significantly more than sex, she isn't with her partner just for the sex and if she is, she won't care if he cheats.

A man values his partner because of her loyalty and sexual exclusivity. And if he doesn't care about the exclusivity, he won't care if she cheats emotionally.

Therefor the same action does different damage relative to whom the perpetrator is, and should be judged with different measures.

We are talking only about the male-female dynamic here.

A man has a constant need to protect. And a female has a constant need for security. This is not about upbringing, social programing or balance(they of course effect it's expression but can not undermine it completely), this is biological, these are the types of differences that make us different and make relationships exist in the first place.

Of course each individual is different, some will be overprotective, others will be more confident, but the reverse dynamic, a protective woman and needy man can not be together, there is no attraction and there can be no relationship.

[–]cuittlerಠ_ಠ[S] 3 points4 points5 points 12 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

[–]asd1100 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

Morallity has nothing to do with this. It's about observing the diference between genders and working toward maximising the individuals utility. In other words, you forget political corectness, you treat the participants as individuals with different individual needs, motivations and consequences. And within that framework you engineer solutions.

I don't want you to agree. This was about satisfying your curiosity of what reason can a man have to think men do not have to abide by the same moral standards as a woman in the 21st century. On my part, I think the red pill is a set of principles and observations that generates happy fulfilling and stable relationships for both men and women and I think diluting the prejudice, assumptions and misconceptions surrounding them is the moral right thing to do.

[–]cuittlerಠ_ಠ[S] 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

Morallity has nothing to do with this. It's about observing the diference between genders and working toward maximising the individuals utility.

On my part, I think the red pill is a set of principles and observations that generates happy fulfilling and stable relationships for both men and women and I think diluting the prejudice, assumptions and misconceptions surrounding them is the moral right thing to do.

I think you just contradicted yourself.

you forget political corectness, you treat the participants as individuals with different individual needs, motivations and consequences. And within that framework you engineer solutions.

yes, so why do you believe in double standards? there will be countless men and women who fall outside the narrow gender framework you've presented. It's only useful for the portion of the population to whom it applies, not everyone.

[–]asd11001 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]cuittler2 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]asd11001 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Yes and that premise is like everything else intersexual relations, amoral.

Those differences require a double standard. Both cats and dogs are mammals, but if you would give them the same food, environment and treat them the same you would be hurting the development of both, some militants would even accuse you of neglect.

The stereotype is that men cheat and most women value commitment more than men, this is false.

The reality is that a person in a comited relationship can have biological needs that he prioritises over his initial comitment, for men this is new vagina, for women this is emotional intimacy. Neither one is a symptom of dissatisfaction with his relationship, it is just a biological impertaive combined with a lack of temporary self control.

In the case of the man, his cheating(physical) is morally reprehensable while the woman's(emotional) is not. This however has little to no value if the partners actually love each other. So you could say that not only does the stereotype not favor men but we actually get judged more for the same sin(prioritising ones biological imperative over a comitment) because the actions are different.

I genuinely can't explain my position any clearer and it sounds like you only hear : MEN SHOULD CHEAT, because women are inferior !

[–]cuittler2 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]asd11001 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I gave you justification, we are different. I did not give you academic proof.

I can not offer you that as such a model would be the academic death of any reasearcher.

The great thing about red pill concepts is that they are extremely aplicable and obvious in real life when not looking at everyday events trough a blue pill lens. So next time someone cheats(man, woman, emotionally of physically), ask their partner how big of a deal it is, and if the other type of cheating would have been preferable. Women would respond that phisical is preferable, while men would respond emotional would be less of a betrayal.

The relationship should be serious +3 years and they should still be having sex.

Conversely prove me wrong regarding men that cheat emotionally and women that cheat physically, and find relationships that recover from these types of incidents.

I was already red when I discovered the "manosphere" all my convictions are from real world experiences. Feel free to try them out, just for sociological shits and giggles if nothing else.

Nevertheless I enjoyed our engagement, and I hope it was satisfactory on your end as well.

[–]cuittler3 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I gave you justification, we are different.

Translation = Because I said so. Got it.

Conversely prove me wrong regarding men that cheat emotionally and women that cheat physically, and find relationships that recover from these types of incidents.

Also, you've fallen into the Burden of Proof Fallacy there...When debating any issue, there is an implicit burden of proof on the person asserting a claim. An argument from ignorance occurs when either a proposition is assumed to be true because it has not yet been proven false or a proposition is assumed to be false because it has not yet been proven true. This has the effect of shifting the burden of proof to the person criticizing the assertion, but is not valid reasoning.

I disagree fundamentally with your assertion because you are taking a complex relationship with countless psychological, sociological and yes even physiological variables not fully understood and saying "it all boils down to your genitalia/gender on how you'll react to cheating". I understand that essentially we are saying the same thing: "this is how it seems from my perspective". That's fine, that's why I come here. But my perspective is why I cannot just accept your perspective, saying all women would be easier to forgive physical cheating and vice versa just doesn't mesh with what I've experienced.

Nevertheless I enjoyed our engagement, and I hope it was satisfactory on your end as well.

We can certainly agree to disagree. Good day.

[–]asd11001 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Because men and women react differntly to the same issue. Want differnt things from relationships and value those relationships because of different aspects.

My bad, I meant in a sense that using the same principle you can determine that these events occur in troubled relationships, the negative is pointless there.

Saying we are the same is oversimplifying even more, and more to my concern, that model does not work in real life.

Your genitalia actually has very little to do with it, the same power struggles exists in a lot of homosexual relations. Wich is quite a interesting non gender specific case study, the more diferent the partners the more stable the relationship.

As a former egalitarian I understand that what I am saying is unacceptable. That is why I encourage you to probe and study real life social relations rather than take my word or TRP gospel for granted. All I ask is for you to be as sceptical of the blue pill interpretation as you are of the red pill model.

These are as you said complex processes and even just because someting is generally promoted as true doesn't mean it is, especially when you need to anegdotally justify why the model doesn't work on a case by case basis.

It's actually evening over here, so have a pleasant evening and a great weekend.

[–]Have_a_smile_bot0 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]DocileBanalBovine 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]asd1100 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]DocileBanalBovine 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]asd1100 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

It is as permissible for her to have sex with someone as it is for me to hook up with a former girlfriend. I.e. not at all, and if it does happen the relationship is probably over.

Also the reverse: it is as permissible for me to have random sex as it is for her to go on a romantic date with a colleague. Unlikely, and it would be disrespectful, but if it happens it's just a misdemeanor and not a deal breaker.

It is a double standards, actually a quadruple standard, but among all my answers I have been consistent. Girl having sex or man emotionally cheating are capital offenses, the relationship has deep issues and it can't bounce back as a healthy relationship. Guy having random sex, woman emotionally cheating, misdameanors, the cheaters need to work on self control and respect the other person more.

[–]OfSpock5 points6 points7 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]GridReXXit be like that-1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]wiskey_tango_foxtrotmarried bpw, bad with flair-1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Title	TRP, PPD and Cheating
Author	cuittler
Upvotes	10
Comments	132
Date	May 22, 2014 4:23 PM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/267xtk/trp_ppd_and_cheating/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/trp-ppd-and-cheating.285703 https://theredarchive.com/post/285703

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