So why do we need the Red Pill? Exploring root causes among us subscribers.

81mm · 2014-07-04T17:07:51+00:00

It was more sub's detractors than pain that lead me here a couple of months ago. Like many, I arrived expecting to find something awful and instead found a group of men who were expressing the very ideas I'd come to form on my own but had never seen or heard so openly expressed in one place.

The top five:

The type of men women say they want and the ones they are actually having sex with in their prime are two completely different often diametrically opposing, types.
I had more success with women both in 'cold open' situations and in relationships when I acted like the type of men they were actually having sex with than when I acted like the type of man they said they were seeking.
Women will go to great lengths to make their irrational behavior appear rational and arguing with them in these situations is absolutely pointless. As one brilliant redpiller put it 'hamsta gonna hamst'.
Self-castrating 'male feminists' (white nights) should just cut it off for real already. The cock-blocking fucking male apologists will be lucky to get thrown a sympathy handy from one of the 'Godesses' they worship after she's hit the wall and goes looking for Beta Bucks.
Complaining about the 'unfairness' of all this is pointless. It is what is. No one owes you anything. Adapt to the new found framework and move on. Opt out, get some game or find a combination of the two that works for you.

mr_throwz · 2014-07-04T18:00:13+00:00

This subreddit reminds me that I have no inherent value to the world and society. Thus, it reminds me to keep no value in the world and society for myself. I am the only thing in my life which has value.

BluepillProfessor · 2014-07-04T15:07:52+00:00

We recently had a discussion of BPD in another thread. The best comment I think was: "She drew me in like a Greek Mythology Siren. They are the most dangerous types of women."

My pain? I don't have a dramatic experience like so many men here. Honestly, with some of these stories I don't know why there are not more, many more, Elliot Rodgers out there. I am an exceptionally high drive man who was in a dead bedroom for 14 years with a critical, angry, disrespectful shrew of a wife. I wanted sex every day or at least every other day. She gave it up twice a month like clockwork. I was numb, dead, ready to simply walk out and leave my family. Nothing I did worked with her. I doubled down on niice and then I switched to complete asshole. Problem was the 'asshole' was not the attractive dark triad but that of a pissed off, supplicating little man-boy who is denied his candy.

Then when I was just mustering to start cheating I began to study the topic. I found pickup artistry and started to gain confidence. Then I discovered The Red Pill and learned about the Captain/First Officer arrangement that works. My major issue was I had to decide whether to try to salvage my marriage using my newfound principles or whether I was going to go out and find a younger, prettier model and trade in my family. Sometimes I think only the loyalty of my dog kept me around.

As it turns out the DREAD works. TRP teaches that you cannot negotiate desire. You can't talk your way into bed. You can't logically convince your wife to fuck you. What you CAN do is decide that YOU- the man- are valuable enough so that if she isn't giving it up YOU are going to get it from somebody. The SECOND I did that was when everything changed.

isthatyourdaughter · 2014-07-04T16:41:20+00:00

When I was 18, there was a really cute 13 year old girl who hung out with my very small social circle a few times. She just had raw sexuality coming out of her in waves. She was always in the company of a mopey guy in his mid 30's who never said a word, he just sat down and watched her or played his guitar; it was implied that the two of them were fucking. And I wanted her, very badly.

She liked me; as clueless as I was back then, I was still awake enough to know she liked me. But she was unsure of me. I assumed the world was straightforward: you like the girl, she likes you, so the two of you will eventually fuck. Instead, she shit tested me.

One day, I was hanging out at a little catholic shool playground with a friend, and she was there. She told me that my friend and I should race each other around the race track, and whoever won could come back to her place with her. In retrospect, obviously I should have laughed and told her to fuck off, but as I said, I was clueless.

So I ran. And I managed to win the footrace. Jesus Christ, its so embarrassing to think that that's what I thought was a good idea. Needless to say, I never got in that girl's panties. And I've failed other shit tests, but that one stands out as especially pathetic.

That's not the only reason I'm here, but that's an illustration. Being clueless has cost me alot of opportunities in life. I've never been a nice guy. But I've never lived up to my potential, either. So I've decided to change.

PaulRivers10 · 2014-07-04T19:04:03+00:00

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theredpillager · 2014-07-04T19:12:22+00:00

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CptDefB · 2014-07-04T20:29:52+00:00

I reached TRP, I think, some time around last November. I turn 30 in a couple months. As someone else said in their reply, I had periods of incredible success with women, and periods of incredible failure. My mind was focused on trying to figure out what was happening. It wasn't enough to accept the usual platitudes, and if I couldn't find an exact reason for what I was seeing, I at least wanted help. TRP killed both birds with one stone.

I'll go into some other details, if only to add to the data that helps shape our world views.

Father taught me nothing but abuse and how to argue. "Remember there are two strikes against you; the first is being black, the second is being a man." That was his most useful piece of advice. Thankfully, I'm at an age where I've grown past resentment. He did what he could, the world changed around him too, and he has his own issues to deal with.
Mother is the breadwinner of the family, and always has been. Definitely more RP than my dad, but even she isn't aware of it. Her relatives call her "naturally blessed", but I've seen the sleepless nights of studying for repeat GMAT attempts and shit. It was usually me waking her up after an evening nap so she could study. Started in the mail room then worked her way up to the boardroom and a six figure income.
Both are deeply religious (Christian) people. It formed the basis of their social networks in Jamaica, and outside of work relationships, it does the same thing here. I don't understand how rational and intelligent people can invest so much time, money and effort into the Church, but I can also be rational and intelligent enough to see the goodness it brings to their lives.
Folks working so hard meant I was in daycare. I didn't have a male teacher till grade 5 (age 11) and no real independence till I was 13 (the age at which daycare is no longer required, and a child may watch a younger sibling). My Jamaican teachers were women also (ages 4 and 5 till we moved). Feminism/Disney attacked my new to Canada brain long before that, and between being a young bespectacled black kid trying to fit in (during the height of Steve Urkel, mind you -- so guess where I fit?) , and becoming a severe introvert during and after middle school... I was a beta child that grew up to be a beta man. Getting your first kiss in grade one doesn't mean shit when you don't get your first vagina till grade twelve. I don't resent it or feel bad about this at all. The experience of "my first love" is a very fond memory, and it could even be argued that I've been looking for that ever since. However, a more masculine version of myself would probably have been fucking from earlier, and more importantly, wouldn't have been so emotionally damaged by women before and after that time. This snowballs into some disastrous life choices in my 20s (you do crazy shit when you think you want to marry someone), and me picking up the pieces as I move into my 30s.
Thank you TRP. Yes, it deserves its own point. People who bandwagon to shame us on the front page simply reinforce why I'm here. I do not want to live, or be, like these people. I live for me now.

2014-07-04T15:01:07+00:00

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RedPillJohnny · 2014-07-04T18:29:33+00:00

We need the redpill because our fathers and uncles and other male role models of our youth were absent or out to lunch when it came to advice about women and girls. Raised in the femosphere by the women with all the hypocrisy and cognitive dissonance that entails without a wise old man to set us straight. I blame no one but that is how it is.

On top of that most men on this sub have been living under the feminist paradigm for their entire lives and eventually you have to either go hard retard or you start to short circuit. Most men here have short circuited and are looking for honest and truthful advice about women as well as a community that supports them while they unplug from the feminine matrix and become the better man that they have the potential to be.

Petrarch1603 · 2014-07-04T19:31:10+00:00

I just love going to a place that is outside of Reddit's echo chamber. Most of reddit is full of lemmings who are just trying to espouse the 'cool' thoughts. If you have a minority opinion in anything, be it books, movies, music politics, etc. you will be heavily downvoted with little to no feedback.

In the rare occasions when unpopular opinions get lots of upvotes you'll get the wailing and accusations of 'vote brigading'.

I don't agree with everything on TRP, but I'm just so fucking glad there's a place on reddit where everyone isn't pressured into toeing the line.

rp_manifesto · 2014-07-04T17:16:38+00:00

When I first found TRP I was coming from studying PUA. I had tried PUA for about 3 or 4 years, off and on, with little success. Progress was slow because I had no idea of red pill/blue pill. I was still totally beta trying to implement PUA techniques that really only work if I come off as alpha, which I never did because I was too much of a nice guy. Alpha is explained poorly in PUA as well, since PUA mostly lacks RP knowledge.

As it turned out, when I found TRP I actually needed it to help me grow the fuck up and although women are a part of that, the major change is my world view. Seeing things as they really are. Being free from social conditioning. Gaining all the things and tools I didnt have because I lacked a male role model.

Ive completely ditched PUA, its pointless to me now. I dont even think in PUA terms anymore because its useless and irrelevant. I really just go for completely natural game. I do what feels good and naturally in the moment and dont plan anything. The only thing I "work on" at times is maintaining frame, but generally this becomes easier and easier to do.

I talk to women lots now, and banter/flirt a lot more, and its becoming a lot more natural. Im starting to understand that women want a guy who is fun, not super serious. They dont want a guy who becomes intellectual in every conversation immediately, they want a guy who makes them laugh and plays around with them. Its nice to have real conversation sometimes, but thats what your guy friends are for. In relation to women, the interaction is more about play because it comes down to being about sex and sex is largely about energy and power. You display good energy by being playful and you display power by passing shit tests and maintaining frame.

When men act like women towards you, in other words bantering and playing around, the testing is to assert dominance when uncertain of another mans station/place in the social hierarchy. Beta men get butt hurt about this, but an RP man knows how it is. I used to get butt hurt, now I play along. I dont care if Im around other men who are "more alpha" than me, thats going to happen. Richer, taller, buffer, whatever. By maintaining frame and playing along with their games, I still display value to adjacent women and am still "alpha" enough to game them. If I get all hurt and offended though, then its obvious Im a beta and "cant hang" with these guys or gals.

So socially Im more normal, less awkward, more fun, more socially intelligent.

I remember when I use to be alpha as a teenager, and then gradually it went away as social conditioning took hold. I am remembering everything though, how I felt when I approached girls, how I felt when I pursued them. I didnt get butt hurt if they rejected my first advances, I just kept trying. I didnt act like a whiny bitch, expecting sex and feeling entitled to the attention of women like I did when I became beta. I didnt wonder why the girls didnt like nice guys because I was a bad boy. Kino escalation was natural for me. Everything was natural for me.

Together with school, my mother and father castrated my male tendencies. My mother weakened me by doing everything for me. If I didnt do something, rather than let me face consequences she would literally do my home work for me. It was absurd, but it weakened me a lot. My father was non-existent, just void, watching TV all the time, or working. I talked my way out of punishment constantly. They were far less intelligent than me and could never keep up with my manipulations. He showed me how to work hard and support a family, but not much else. I knew nothing about women, money, the world, society... nothing. My father was textbook blue pill to the point that I was often the one fixing things around the house instead of him due to his laziness. Not once did either of my parents sit me down and talk to me about anything relatively important dealing with life. My role models and such all came from school, friends, tv and video games, hence I became ultra blue pill to the point of becoming an incel. This is despite the often maddening fact that initially women always had attraction to me. I could talk to them and get numbers easily, but they always ended up flaking. They could see my betaness from a mile away, and since financially I have little to offer, they basically just decided I wasnt worth the trouble. Or I got friendzoned over and over again.

Some of that natural alphaness I had is coming back but most importantly I feel ambition coming back. Ambition to do what I want with my life, ambition to stop accepting my own excuses and laziness, ambition to get out of "good enough" and get into "exactly what I want". Im not fully there yet, but at least I can see progress now. I feel like I used to as a child, I no longer feel restricted and hopeless, instead I feel like the world is full of possibility again. In short, TRP has helped me to be alive again rather than just some dead drone headed for a bleak and boring fate.

Since finding TRP my view and the way I handle women is far different. Most of my narcissistic and suicidal thinking is completely gone. When a woman rejects me I dont immediately start hamstering that "She doesnt know what shes missing" or that "Im just a piece of shit and I deserve to die".

For these reasons I wish people would give TRP the chance it deserves. Rational people can really benefit from this philosophy. It might have saved my life. Since I really found TRP and it started to benefit me I havent fallen into any patterns of self hatred anymore. I no longer base my self worth on how women treat me, and even when they reject me or whatever I know its just because Im still not Alpha and my life doesnt have enough to offer. My anger towards women and society is gone and redirected in healthy ways by paying attention to what RP says and applying its theory- working out, eating right, having goals, getting your shit done, frame, all that.

I know my success is not common but its not rare either. Im not even there yet, Im still in transition and already I see these improvements. I feel balanced, collected, in control, and focused on goals. I havent felt this great in years.

If I never found TRP... who would have opened my eyes to these things? How would I have seen the truth? Would I have been smart enough to figure it out on my own, or would I go another 5 years railing against the injustices done to me, never doing shit with my life, and marrying a girl whose "good enough" for me but not really my ideal mate, then living out a big lie until we both die?

Nah screw that.

IamAwaken · 2014-07-04T22:21:43+00:00

I think many men suffer a real pain at not having a strong figure to identify with. TRP both identifies and provides relief for this pain. However, it is a pain more of mind so it is often not understood except by those who feel it.

Anyway my pain is t easily told by a story. I would have to retell my whole life in a sense because I had oneitis from age 4 to 28 and was never with her. Also mom was my main parent and dad didn't participate much or control her at all. She has terrible temper and hoarding issues.

Anyways with those problems already there I had the misfortune of Disney minded love/sex. Which unfortunately I took to be a supplicating beta. Thus I had no female affection which is kind of miserable when that's the only thing you want. Sadly saying this really sounds silly because it's rather miserable waiting till 23 to do things people did 6ish years earlier. That constant question of what to do to get intimate with a girl never answered leaves me awkward in other parts of my life. My friends and interactions really don't matter as much. It's rather empty, but I don't want to just go on and on trying to describe the pain. That's the problem is either you know this pain or you don't and can't relate. Thus it sounds silly when I read it from the perspective of another now.

The fact that this pain is almost shameful to discuss makes things worse. You can hear it from any of your over due virgin friends. They talk about how it's starting to bug them and they don't know what to do. The level of depressing that conversation usually brings up is huge. The problem is a lack of TRP.

Anyway I rewrote this a couple times so hopefully this last one didn't suck the most.

goldenbeardy · 2014-07-04T17:57:15+00:00

Girlfriend doesn't give me enough sex. I want to work out how to get more.

VegasHostTre · 2014-07-04T18:31:26+00:00

I needed the red pill because of the new found success I was having with women.

I was having success once I reached 30 with women in their 30's and needed to know why. I knew deep down it was nothing I did differently and was puzzled. My first post was "I noticed I am triggering the beta bux side of the hypergamy" I was not perceived by these women as alpha, but instead as someone who can take care of another man's seed.

altra_hex · 2014-07-04T19:00:08+00:00

A variety of things drew me here.

Primarily it's been an overall failure with women though. I kind of knew there was something wrong with the BS I had been fed about what women look for, due to my own struggles.

The one that got away last Summer was what made me determined to change my approach though. She was what is referred to as a Unicorn on here. Probably an 8 physically, but her mind/attitude was a 10. I unwittingly blue-pilled things to hell with her, and she moved away before I came around to TRP philosophy.

In other words, here for self-improvement. I like TRP for its indifference to PC also.

venturecapitalcat · 2014-07-04T19:03:35+00:00

I think the redpill is a choice that persists in society as a natural extension of people's personal experience. It's a choice that feels like a watershed moment in breaking not just with the norms of society but who they are as a human being. It's a powerful feeling that exists about many concepts that strongly relate to interpersonal identity.

There are all sorts of views that people are taught to have about interpersonal relations that over the course of the first 3 decades of life start to not make a lot of sense. These people start looking inwards about what are the predominant forces that actually shape their world. And they realize that some of the conclusions are radically different compared to what they have been told their entire lives. Many of these rules apply to relationships between men and women (but it's not just about that). They start re-examining the scenarios that they have encountered in the past, start applying their honed lens and seeing how things might have turned out differently. on how the world works and through real-world application achieve results that confirm their inward reflection.

The redpill exists as a community because an innumerable amount of men, mostly all over the Western World (because we have this particular concept of ultrafeminism) have gone through a similar experience. They commiserate over the process of having gone through this experience, congratulate each other for creating more acceptance and control over their lives, and then move on with their new found knowledge. But the forum lives on as new people start their own process of inward reflection and join in for the first time.

2014-07-05T00:07:38+00:00

I've known this stuff for decades. I'm a successful 40 year old engineer with a position of power, plenty of money (not rich, but I do okay), my health and a not too unattractive face. I've got a great career doing what I love and a spectacular future. I'm not angry, and I actually get annoyed by the guys in here picking apart the "flaws" of female behavior like it's inherently evil. It's not... it's women being women. I like women, a lot. I'm not even angry at the feminists even though I think they are dead wrong. I think a lot of people are dead wrong, but I don't hate them for it.

So why am I here? It's because I need the daily reminder. Women shit test constantly, and to be honest, I have better things to concentrate my mind on then challenging them. My natural instinct, when faced with a horribly important task in front of me (of which there are constantly many) and a stupid-ass shit test is to concede the sit test and focus on the monumental task. As an example, if I'm kind of in the mood for a burrito, and you are in the mood for a pizza and we are going out to lunch, I really don't give a shit and will concede the burrito because that doesn't mean shit in the big scheme of my ambitions. So, what will invariably happen, left to my natural tendencies, is all of these burrito concessions leave me appearing weak to the women in my life. The sex will dry up, the fighting starts, the vying for my attention in escalating fucked up annoying ways (ramping up the shit tests), and it leaves me horny and tired and frustrated. It drives me into the arms of post-wall desperate gold diggers who think they will be able to woo me into beta-bux because they are easy pickings and really, after a long week of doing fucking battle, all I want is a scotch and a blowjob, not to be chasing 20 somethings and dealing with all of their crazy-ass shit. I need this daily reminder that I can't concede the burrito. As a man, leading successful armies during the day does JACK SHIT for me when evening falls, and if I don't take the lead there also then there will be no blow job, just copious amounts of scotch, which leads to whacking off till you are raw and alcoholism. I need the reminder that I can't relax and be a follower and have a maternal breast to suckle on when I'm tired; my mother is dead and no one will ever take her place, not because I wouldn't let them, but because WHO THE FUCK WOULD WANT TO? I need the reminder that I have only three options for constant blow jobs:

1) Straight up buy them. I can do this, I have the means. I can grab me a sugar baby and do whatever I want with her. It's all an act though. It's not satisfying in the same way. It beats masturbation by a long shot, but just knowing that this is a fee for service relationship rather than a friendship is taxxing.

2) Marry them. This simply doesn't work as an end by itself without #3, and is inferior to #3 AND #1. It's more costly than #1 but with the disadvantage of having no blowjobs and someone nagging you every weekend to fucking move the couch for the fourth time this year because they changed their mind on the layout of the living room AGAIN for no fucking reason. That and the constant pressure to relax, get fat and stop wanting sex so as to keep you unattractive, unhealthy and at home so that the paychecks don't stop flowing. All of this, and with an aging, post-wall, no longer looks good in yoga pants woman that you no longer want to keep the lights on in bed with for fear of ED.

3) Maintain frame and NEVER concede a burrito. This simple, and in retrospect not all too stressful act gets me my blow jobs and scotch.

If I ever forget, then the blow jobs stop coming as sure as if I stopped brushing my teeth they would decay to shit within a short time frame. I know that I don't need a fucking poster in my bathroom to remind myself to brush my teeth, but for some god damned reason I need this place to remind me that I better fucking maintain frame.

So I'm here, like clockwork.

SupraLuggi · 2014-07-05T02:18:54+00:00

I was very close to being one of them. I was always into edgy shit, I used internet 24 / 7, my body was quickly going to ruin (almost broke 200 pounds at 5'9"), and above all else I didn't even care about life. I think the only thing that really prevented me from going full dive into a pathetic wasteful life was the fact that I resented much of internet politics, which kept me from getting too involved into it.

This sub has been a very real turn around for me. It's truly helped me. You cannot look at me 6 months ago and now and say that I've done anything but improve. Thank you, TRP.

I3luee · 2014-07-05T10:19:04+00:00

Sharing: ex loved me possessively. If she heard me talking over the phone with a chick, she'd either take my phone (when I wasn't looking) and change her number and redirect her original number. Emails deleted, Facebook profiles blocked, at one point she even called one of them to tell them to stop calling me.

Most of the chicks were friendzoning me or I friendzoned myself (some were actually pretty neat discussion partners on certain subjects). After 1 year with her I had virtually 1 girl friend. When that chick also bailed I decided that this is too twisted for me -> dropped the relationship.

6 months after breaking up but still seeing eachother for sex, she's still blaming me for it and hamstering that "you caused it by talking to the chicks! It wasn't me, I was just trying to make us happy by not splitting your attention with anyone else.". This month I cut off all connections since the sex got dull also.

vengefully_yours · 2014-07-05T17:48:04+00:00

The pain didn't bring me here, I live with pain daily, both physical and emotional (last night sucked, I hate fireworks) so in a way its comfortable. I am here because what I read in the sidebar quantified what I have experienced with women, showed me what I did right as well as what I didn't do right. I was able to make sense of how I managed to fuck so many of them, yet miss out on many more, and the reasons my relationships failed.

People call me bitter and resentful, but honestly I am cynical. There is a difference. They say I hate women, but really I don't like most people, for myriad reasons. Reading and writing here helps me understand that my expectations are quite high for others, and the vast majority fail, so rather than hate them I am learning to accept that people are banal, insipid, unimaginative, vapid, shallow, dishonest, weak, and my favorite, easily manipulated.

I used to think that my nature was a bad thing, that using and manipulating people was some horrible thing that I needed to change about myself. That thinking held me back for years, now I am embracing that part of me, accepting it like I accept that others can never live up to my expectations of professionalism. Most of that expectation came from being in the military, and being an NCO. I've had to let go of that mentality, and while I still view people who don't measure up as inferior, I am not nearly as stressed over it as I was even a few months ago. It has gone from loathing to disappointment with humans in general.

All my life I was told that girls are nice, sweet, innocent, loveable, trustworthy, loyal, capable, and all these positive things. I found out its not true, they can be at times, but people as a whole aren't those things often. Then they try to tell me that I am choosing the wrong ones, so its my fault for not choosing better. That isn't the case, its largely irrelevant who I choose, what is relevant is how I act and think around them. I fell for the bullshit, believed the hype, and I assumed I could treat women as equals, and they would be. Holy shit that was wrong to assume. In reality, I have to be the NCO, working toward a common goal, but I am the leader, I decide what, where, who, how, and why, and they follow. They are not equal to me in any way, and that is OK, it doesn't make them worthless or bad, just different.

Trp has given me clarity, shown where I had weakness and where my strengths are, and in the process it has allowed me to accept others for who they are. It doesn't mean I will like them, or want to fuck them, but I'm not mad at them. I don't like Honda cars, but I'm not going to crush them or set them on fire, I simply won't own one.

thredditsowaway · 2014-07-05T18:40:17+00:00

We need TRP because it's mindset and community that allows men to operate in a fashion that emphasizes discovering and acting on the way things are, not the way we wish they were, not the way things should be according to some overcomplicated morality. It's a "no bullshit" straight path from start point to end point, which is increasingly rare in a society so complacent it's "end point" is simply to become content with its "start point." It's too hard for them to recommend we go to the gym, dress better, and confront our fears (including rejection) directly without them doing so themselves, so they rationalize staying the same by advising that you do, too.

MachiavellianRed · 2014-07-04T18:03:04+00:00

Flaired as a question as this is not theory.

fuckforce5 · 2014-07-04T20:13:48+00:00

This seems strangely out of place...

strimpboi · 2014-07-04T22:11:11+00:00

Lets be honest, this boils down to our fathers not teaching us the way

YouDislikeMyOpinion · 2014-07-05T00:32:21+00:00

This reminds me of a post a long time ago that someone submitted titled "What was her name?"

We are all brought here for one reason or another, almost every single one of those reasons being reality hitting us in the face. And then we pick up the pieces and really try to understand how things work so that reality doesn't hit us in the face again. Conditioning working as it should.

I look at it all as a big puzzle.

The puzzle is big, but I don't know how big. I do know that I'd have to be very smart to even fit even half the pieces together during my entire life.

And so I'm on here to at the end of the day fit some pieces of the puzzle together, fill in the blanks, find connections between similar pieces, form a general understanding of the edges of the puzzle, and etc.

Sure reality may hit me in the face again, but it won't blindside me again.

Title	So why do we need the Red Pill? Exploring root causes among us subscribers.
Author	iluminatiNYC
Upvotes	24
Comments	60
Date	July 4, 2014 2:23 PM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/TheRedPill
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/29ttk7/so_why_do_we_need_the_red_pill_exploring_root/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/TheRedPill/so-why-do-we-need-the-red-pill-exploring-root.17507 https://theredarchive.com/post/17507

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