A question for guys

ludwigvonmises · 2020-07-02T02:14:30+00:00

To be honest, I am very grateful I've discovered it. FDS is a source of incredible wisdom to help me improve my romantic and social life. Thankfully, I have always had a level-up mentality in general (health, career, etc.), but it wasn't until I discovered FDS (and related radfem type stuff) that I realized I was pretty lacking in my relationship with women, in my approach to dating women, in the way I saw/objectified/treated female friends, and in other cultural ways (like being willing for the woman to pay half, like believing mothers should always perform certain things, etc.). I have since come to realize by reading the wiki articles and the countless posts by various high level FDSers and mods that my behavior was cringey, embarrassing, sloppy, and only tolerable to women that hadn't begun levelling-up/realizing their romantic worth.

The NVM/LVM/HVM distinction is very useful. It's not perfect, naturally, because there are always one-off situations where even seasoned FDS vets might disagree on a particular expression of character, but in general it's a great heuristic to identify terrible and worthless behavior and to see examples of what women actually want in a man: responsible, diligent, thoughtful, generous, protective, clean, capable, and on and on. I mean, all these things should be fucking obvious - but for some reason I never sat down with myself and thought through my actions and analyzed a strategy for attracting high quality women. I was just "me" and if women didn't like me, well.. nothing I could do about that! How stupid.

Even though FDS is a forum for female dating empowerment, it's actually empowered me as a male because now I am expecting high quality women to exhibit these characteristics. I am looking for them to expect me to drive long distances, cover dinners, come up with creative dates, spend Sundays with them, introduce them to friends, and essentially make me really earn the most valuable thing on the planet: elite female sexuality.

I want to say thank you to everyone who participates in FDS. I cannot ask questions or comment on things, so I have to bite my tongue, but I sincerely learn a lot from reading comments and threads on various LVM issues. I know it must be strange to post so honestly and openly about your dating issues and sometimes even dragging all men under the bus when you suspect there are unknown number of men lurking your thread, but for all the angry incel DMs and brigading and bullshit from psycho men you ladies endure, there are some adult men out here genuinely taking notes and correcting our entrenched stupidity.

I am happy to answer any questions you might have or to help/support/donate in any way I can to this cause. It has helped me tremendously. I believe female empowerment and ruthlessly cutting off LVM from the sexual marketplace is the best way to advance humanity to a higher consciousness, so believe me when I say I want the same things you do. If I have daughters, God willing, I will train them in the ways of this secret art.

she_is_munchkins · 2020-07-02T04:32:36+00:00

This may be really unstructured and rambly, but I'll bite.

I recall you answering one of my previous posts on /r/AskFDS, namely the one about my asking whether or not it is possible to be a HVM with a LVM past. Going back to the topic of that post, ever since I decided to pull a complete 180 and turn my life around, self-improvement and "leveling up" has become addictive and I honestly can't see myself living a stagnant life anymore. In the past year, I decided to get my feet wet in the dating scene, but I had three major failures (more on this in the upcoming paragraph). However, my love for continuous self-improvement allowed me to look back onto these failures and make improvements to them. Because of these failed dating attempts, I made some hard introspection and took it upon myself to improve myself.

In the past year, just from these experiences, I got a sexier car (last one was a piece of shit that just screamed "I'm broke" and was embarrassed to be seen in), got into interior design and decorated my living space, upped my skincare routine (not ashamed to say I buy stuff from Sephora as a guy), put tens of thousands into investments, and jumped ship to a higher-paying job and got my first professional certification. From the most recent major failure, I looked to FDS for inspiration and guidance and, without a doubt, it was the most incredible experience with a woman I have ever had (there wasn't even anything sexual in nature here) so far. From this particular experience, I have come to the realization that I have really been selling myself short in just about all aspects of my life, am way too hard on myself, and most importantly need to get my skinny ass into therapy because there is definitely something deeper going on with me that is affecting my dating and social life. FDS was actually the reason why I decided to go into therapy (my first session is next week!) and I will always be grateful for that. In fact, I'd even go as far as saying that this will be a pivotal time of my life.

So, to put it simply, I lurk on FDS because I see it as an incredible self-improvement community; namely that it is very grounded in reality and balanced. You all are not afraid to pull punches, but also realize we're human and life isn't black and white with concrete "put x in and get y out" universal rules. In my experience, a good chunk of self-improvement either falls into one of two categories: delusional and unrealistic (i.e., "You can do anything! You just need to think it and the Universe will give it to you with no effort!") or nihilistic and toxic (i.e., "If you want a girlfriend you're a Beta Cuck bro. She's gonna be fuckin' Alpha Chad while you're at work bro."), but FDS isn't like that for the reasons I listed above, hence why I lurk and post questions here often. Of course, just as with any community (especially on Reddit), there are some extremists; like, I once saw a comment on the main sub that said something like, "If he likes dogs more than cats he's a rapist looking for a slave" and another "any man who quits porn to fix his ED is a selfish misogynist." But, just as with all extremists, it's good to just ignore.

Another thing that FDS has taught me is that, while not explicitly stated in the main sub, thinking in terms of healthy vs. unhealthy is far more effective when it comes to being an attractive person and living a fulfilled life. I'll be honest and say that when I first stumbled across FDS, I interpreted "never settle" and "level up" as "you should only go for 6'4" millionaire models who drive Lamborghinis and live in Bel Air, anything less is a loser wimp." But I realized most of the malice (if you'd call it that) comes from the fact that most guys don't even do the bare minimum or put in any effort. So many posts about how the guy lacks even the most basic life skills: doesn't do laundry, doesn't shower, doesn't brush their teeth, watches twisted sickening porn on the daily, doesn't put in any effort into their appearance, etc.. A lot of this is basic life skills and I'm definitely understand where all of you are coming from on that one. Not only that, but a lot of these guys are just universally bad people (cheaters, liars, thieves, etc.). I wouldn't want to be with a slovenly, tramp-stamped, ex-stripper, fat porker with a substance abuse problem who cheats on me and steals my money, so it's only fair that I'm not the male equivalent and work on myself.

Call me shallow or selfish, but it's the truth.

forgetfulkiwi7 · 2020-07-02T07:12:03+00:00

I have to admit that I am thankful to FDS, because it allowed me to see the other side of the coin. I have never thought much about what women actually go through.

Of course I was aware of the worst sides (rape, abuse for example), but there are were so many other aspects that I was clueless about. I guess many of those were just things I was socialized to consider "normal" and acceptable, without giving them much thought.

It also helped me realize more about myself: I used be what you would call a LVM (and probably I still am). I have never treated my ex-girlfriend the way she deserved, I was lazy and not enthusiast in general about us.

I also had and ex-FWB (I hate that term), which now I realize actually wanted a relationship with me. When we met, I was still naive enough to think that "keeping it casual" meant nothing wrong, as long as you were upfront about it.

At some point, she realized I was a lost cause and left (honestly I am glad she did and now she is also engaged with a guy, so I hope she's happy). Months later, discovering FDS really helped me putting myself in her shoes and some of the stuff really hit very close to home. I would apologize to her, but I guess it's just better leaving her alone with her new life.

About the low/high value distinction, I guess it makes sense. Everyone deserves someone who treats you as a priority, so absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Sometimes though, scrolling FDS is disheartening because of the occasional body shaming on short, bald, ugly guys. I am not blissfully unaware of the constant body shaming women suffer everyday, but, at the same time, I have to admit FDS made me feel worthless and unwanted because of my height (or lack thereof). But fortunately, it's rare and not so common and it's not something that needs to change in my opinion: women are allowed spaces where they can say anything they want.

So, in conclusion, you guys rock and I hope you also keep this subreddit available so that everyone aspiring to become a better person can receive advice.

lethargical46745 · 2020-07-02T08:53:57+00:00

I want to improve myself as a man to be able to make a woman happy one day because that would make me feel complete. It seems like women here are more honest about what they want and makes them happy, so it is a very good source for me to learn. RedPillWomen has some okay parts and overall I think it is not *so* far from FDS but they often seem to settle to compromising with attitudes that are pernicious for them. And with all due respect, although AskWomen raises some valid points about shit women have to go through, it also feels dishonest at times, and I cannot shake the feeling that in many cases they are holding back what they think. It is part of a woke culture that pushes societal rules that keep women from seeking their own happiness, not very far from what Christianity did in some time ago.

Even if some opinions in FDS can hurt a bit to read, I really appreciate that you are independent-minded and have set yourselves apart from the yoke of both the conservative right and the postmodern left.

WhereIdIsEgoWillGo · 2020-07-02T02:47:52+00:00

Mine is a mixed take. I'll start with the more disappointing aspect.

There's a sense of catharsis lurking as, despite not being completely no-value, FDS somewhat legitimizes my own self-hatred. I read posts of women dealing with creeps and assholes, and despite knowing I'd never do a lot of stuff talked about, I just wrap myself amongst NVM. I know the first response will be "get therapy", so i know this aspect is kind if irrelevant. But it's kinda an unconscious reason I come here. I find myself being torn down by a lot of stuff, and then the realization that I'm not as bad as the guys you lot talk about hits, and I tear myself down for being dumb enough to think i was that disgusting in the first place.

The second main reason is that it provides an interesting contrast to the people and women I interact with in real life. I have a decent amount of female friends, so in my initial time here I often sent them posts for their input. Despite the whiplash from coming across this sub for the first time, a lot of what you lot said made sense. At the same time the people i know, "libfems" i guess, also made points that i found sensible. But whenever you lot talk avout radfems, or they say your posts, you never seemed to see eye to eye. Maybe it's me being a man idk, but I'm hoping for some 'logical bridge' that makes digesting FDS praxis easier, as i think this is a beneficial thing for everyone to know about and understand instead of strawmanning.

The last reason is another more introspective one. The one common thing I've noticed is the belief, or fact really, that men don't really offer much to women. Or rather, men need to work to offer something for women. I'm not sure if that's a role I want to play, I don't know if that's an acceptable stance to take. I know it'll can interpreted as "she should be satisfied with home dates and cleaning up after my mess" but that's not what i mean. I don't want to be looked after or tended to, but i have no clue what the other side of a healthy relationship looks like. Therr a consistent examples of hvm behaviour, that it's always giving to your SO and prioritizing her in most if not every instance. But the fds philosphy demands that women always put themselves first. I cant understand how a relationship on which both parties are prioritizing one person.

Again, I'm unsure if that's acceptable. I don't know if that's just me being low value or it's something i can actually believe. I don't know if it's responsible for me to date until i reconcile that, that and all my other issues. To that end, this sub has made me really ponder about if there's a positive version of stuff like MGTOW. I find it dumb that this is called a male hate sub despite the fact it's a sub that just has no patience for men who are assholes. But when i hear "men have nothing to offer women", i wonder if men can actually thrive being single without the misogyny.

I know it's pretty dumb to have all these thoughts and none about improving myself, I apologize about that. FDS has been easily the most thought provoking sub I've come across, both good and harmful thoughts, and i just want to sort through thag whirlpool to achieve some sort of calm. I think it's a good thing for any guy to know indepth as it forces introspection, and i find introspection to be the most important part of growing

Monarc73 · 2020-07-02T15:50:04+00:00

For me (47M), FDS was life-changing. I have always had an interest in self-improvement, but almost all of the male oriented content on Reddit (looking at you 'communication' / cleanlivingkings) is toxic in some way.

You really helped me to look at myself and evaluate what I saw HONESTLY. If I had found you earlier, I'm sure I would still be with my VERY HV X. (Although tbh, that loss is precisely why I take this whole thing so much more seriously.)

It has been a tough journey, and although I don't always agree with EVERYTHING you say, I def do appreciate that there is a place full of very supportive people willing to say it.

OP, Ty for asking and listening. (Here's hoping you avoid the Banwave pII...)

KyleSackrider · 2020-07-02T03:13:51+00:00

I lurk because when I first heard of it I heard it was a very toxic subreddit. Since then I’ve actually come around to understand a lot of you more, and while I don’t agree with all of your stances and the sometimes obvious Misandry I do understand what you guys are saying and have come to embrace it. Since reading many posts on here I’ve come to learn that it is a good thing I’ve focused on myself since I broke up with my girlfriend. For a while I questioned if I should and even questioned if it had been a good thing for me to do. After reading a lot of your posts and stuff, I realized my own self worth and while I’m not trying to be a narcissist, I do recognize my own flaws and work to improve them, I was much, much higher value than my ex and it further justified why I broke up with her. It was one of the best things I had done because she was very low value. After that I worked on the flaws I knew I had and thought about what I needed to look for right away, or what kind of red flags I should be looking for in a woman so I don’t have to go through that again. While the sub may be for women, it’s certainly helped me out a lot when I applied the same standards and advice.

McBlakey · 2020-07-09T20:56:09+00:00

The LV / HV distinction is more useful than the concept of alpha / beta. It makes more sense to me (33 year old man)

Argentiferous · 2020-07-03T04:43:43+00:00

I love it when I see the examples of HVMs you post. I love it when I see a stories like the one about someone that learned his SO loved mugs and built huge shelf to store mugs. I like to see what HVMs are doing right. It’s awesome.

HAUPTM4NN · 2020-07-02T13:44:05+00:00

Basically i learned the do's and donts

cool_much · 2020-07-02T08:08:43+00:00

It's great because it basically just tells me "Who's a hvm? Yes you are! Yes you are!" Occasionally I tweak a mindset but it's not like it's asking for much.

On a more serious note I am extremely appreciative of the effect FDS is having on women avoiding abusive relationships for personal reasons, the "gtfo" fund for example as well as an understanding that you can put that fund to use if your partner is financially, emotionally or physically abusive and the self respect to do so.

There is one point I really get hung up on though. According to some posts: https://redd.it/hj0e3a But this seems somewhat reasonable to me. It should be a goal to not yell at your partner in an argument and to express yourself calmly rather than aggressively in my opinion. Getting very emotional does make it difficult to actually go through the argument and find the solution so you can go forward. If one person gets upset and starts crying or something then it becomes insensitive to continue the argument and you are forced to fold to comfort the other person but that just kicks the argument down the road. And if they get angry then it can escalate to a screaming match and nothing valuable is said so it's just stupid (shouting is a bit disrespectful too).

How did this slip through the cracks? Someone clearly thought about what FDS principles should be. All the others make sense but this one sticks out like a sore thumb.

Edit: I think I get it now. It's like you shouldn't feel guilty and forget about your issue just because you got angry or upset. Maybe you need to take a minute to recompose but you getting emotional for a moment doesn't weaken your argument. I just felt that it was actually supporting getting emotional in an argument which I don't think is conducive to fixing the problem or communicating clearly and respectfully.

braveathee · 2020-07-02T17:48:40+00:00

I learned a lot about what women value. My current relationship is not what FDS would like (because of the age gap), but I love it and she seems to love what I offer (commitment, support). I hope it works out when I meet her.

PS: You're so right about it being easy for men on online dating. I am a full-time-online guy with no experience, probably autistic, virgin-until-27. I had 2 relationships including my current one in 6 months (In the first one, I rejected her because I realized her issues. She actually offered me to be her husband on the first day we matched, but that's not when I bailed.) and I wasn't sending intros to most of the likes I was getting (I think I was at >50 likes when I deactivated it.). Putting the desired location of matches to "anywhere" helped a lot.

theblitz6794 · 2020-07-02T15:12:00+00:00

Its a tool for unindoctrinating myself by establishing the opposite extreme, its a shared interest with a female friend who also lurks (we both fencesit between liberalism and radfem&leftism), its extraordinarily interesting and refreshing to see things from a purely female pov, it gives me a certain negative depresso catharsis by feeding the more stunted parts of my self esteem, and for a certain relief that women are actually interested in genuinely decent men. I know TRP is ideological bullshit but I read too much of it as a teen.

If its not clear I have extremely mixed feelings on FDS. We joke there are two wolves: one an extremely positive woman self improvement wolf and a blackpill circlejerk wolf basically. I like to watch these two tendencies of radical feminism play out in general, and what a better sub than one for dating men?

Wizardry88 · 2020-07-02T22:51:20+00:00

I've recently left my LTR and will have to re-enter the dating market at some point. My ex is great and we're still friends that talk frequently, but ultimately her parents wouldn't accept me because of my ethnicity. I'm taking some time to process everything and have decided to take the road of self-improvement before attempting to date again. I like myself, but we can always be better.

Why lurk? I seek truth from what women are looking for: what you value, what your priorities are, what your past experiences have been, and so on. You can't see raw opinions in a community where you are afraid to speak your mind.

I have somewhat increased awareness of what you are looking for, but I can't really say anything specific. I've seen completely contradictory values/desires both upvoted significantly, because of course every woman is an individual.

What do I think of the low-value/high-value distinction? It's very binary. We all have our insecurities and weaknesses, and I think every man can imagine someone more appealing than they are. It's easy to get hung up on our shortcomings, especially things that we can't change. I think it would be interesting to see rankings of what is most important to you. What would your improvement plan for a man be? I think that could be something practical.

As for what I'd like to say to you, I wish you the best. From the bottom of my heart, I hope you find what you are looking for. Some of you have been through terrible situations, and I hope you get the healing you need. I cringe very hard when I read what some of you let yourselves endure, but I am glad when I see that you are better versions of yourself now. Take care about over-generalizing, it can lead to forgetting the humanity.

itcud · 2020-07-02T04:39:40+00:00

I love it how you aren't a pure circlejerk and are raising though questions about what gender theory is at core.

Also, I'm Finnish. We're the sexually healthiest country on the planet, and I'm seeing FDS style rhetoric here. Prominently, when a woman wants me for sex, I'm supposed to pay for her stuff initially. A necessary component is that I'm supposed to get laid in the end, which isn't that much of a case for American simps.

We also have a metajoke where we understand that virgin shaming is supposed to be bad, which isn't the case for Anglo internet.

Also, obligatory "wOmEn ArEnT fUnNy".

mc_skoeljaer · 2020-07-04T07:34:30+00:00

ATTENTION ATTENTION!

Ok I’m a bit late to the party so I’m not sure if anyone will even read this.

I want to start by saying I do sympathize with what the women of world have to go through in this world (abuse, sexual assault etc). I don’t think a lot of guys are aware how bad it is. A lot of my fellow men still come up with excuses or are in denial. I’ve in a place where every second woman is a victim. I understand some of this stuff informs the strategies.

Secondly I have interacted with many fds members (including a few mods) and I will say most actually come across as very proud but also nice and reasonable ladies. Some have told or confided in me certain things that helped me understand where they are coming from in terms of the strategies or fds as a whole.

I just want to get that out the way. I will just be focusing on the dating aspect in this comment.

I’ve lurked a lot of the major relationships orientated subs (redpill, incel/blackpill, jbw(just be white), fds, a bit of pinkpill etc). Read enough of a sub and you start to see the points that they’re making. I’ve found all these subs made some valid points.

My first reaction to fds was a bit of anger. I realized after a while that the truth was that I was dissatisfied with my own life. Although I was a HVM in my last relationship when I was single I just wanted easy access to sex. You could say this was to fill a void . I think many men that focus too much time lurking and trolling are truly not happy with their lives. They have nothing meaningful to work or towards. I think this has been a prevalent theme across all the relationship subs except with fds the message is directed at women (focus on yourself and self improvement). I understand why fds has some of the rules it has (no low effort first date eg coffee, wait to have sex, continue to see other people) but...

Another reason why so many men I suspect are angry at fds is because they don’t want to be the guy to ‘over invest.’ We have to ask ourselves why don’t they like over investing? It’s simply because men have this idea that when a woman is genuinely attracted to you she won’t make you wait that long for sex. The perception is that you gave it up to Chad quickly but because he is what the redpill calls a ‘beta bux’ you are only really attracted to his resources or what he can offer. I remember reading posts from a fds member about being high value, implementing strategies etc. I went back through her post history and there was a comment/post she made on fds complaining about how a guy she went on a date with was so handsome that she ended up letting her guard down and sleeping with him on the first date. If I know or suspect this about her then I would feel short changed if she’s going to now implement fds strategies on me, make me wait months for sex and put in all this effort and with ease. Men value how they are seen sexually. I’ve personally since placed less emphasis on it but that’s the norm. I will start to wonder why I don’t ignite that passion within her or arouse her attraction that will have her compromising her own rules for me. Why is it so easy for her to use make me wait but she couldn’t contain herself with that other guy. I waited in my last relationship but that was for other reasons. It was very clear that she was extremely attracted to me and I waited for reasons that I won’t divulge here. I could have made a move and slept with her early on however I did not do so out of respect for her. I didn’t feel like second best. I’ve even had a fwb situation with a woman in which she was still going out on dates with a particular guy. He would take her to a nice fancy restaurant and after she got home she would call me over to sleep with her. All this whilst making him wait and taking her out on fancy dates. I understand a woman practicing fds down to the dot would not do this however many women aren’t so this can happen more often than not and no man wants to be the one paying for dinner.

Another aspect is that assuming I am looking for a serious relationship and have found someone who might be suitable. I don’t necessarily believe the fds high value male approach will put women off and make them think you’re a beta bux however I think a lot of the women who practice fds or some form of strategy that men come across in real life are toxic or manipulative. Anytime I’ve met a woman who insisted on dinner on the first date or said ‘she was the prize’ in real life she has been one that was aiming to waste my time or purposely hurt me because one of her exes did that to her (admitted). They tend to be women with a queen complex but in a very bad way. I’m all for thinking highly of yourself but these ones take it to another level. They’re the type to ghost, reply days later, play mind games etc. the worst part is they constantly post statuses about finding the one,truth, honesty whilst exhibiting none of those qualities in their day to day interactions. These type of women will never reject you directly because they enjoy toying with you,gaslighting or using you. I’ve personally learnt how to handle such women but many men (especially young) haven’t and this is why the redpill remains so popular. A woman practicing fds in its truest form will let you take out to dinner to vet which is fine however some women do it to fill their stomachs (see foodie call), ego or because they have nothing better to do.

Just my two cents. I’ve since stopped lurking. I’ve learnt a lot about women’s perspective and approach to dating and for that I am grateful so thank you. There’s so much more I could write but I have stuff to do.

On another note: I like the way this sub is run. It’s so clean, organized and the graphics ( colors logo). Good work mods and founders.

Schumi_D · 2020-07-02T13:16:38+00:00

I'm not scrolling through FDS really often. Also I discovered it quite recently. But there is one thing, that really bothers me. You are putting people (Women and man) into drawers. And especially if it comes to dating, that's just not possible.

For example: I've seen, that you are against Porn and especially BDSM. But there are a lot of women out there who enjoy BDSM. So a man who is into dominating women is not necessarily a bad thing. For the right women, a dominant guy can be a HVM while for an other it is a NVM.

The same counts for paying on the first date. Really often I read on FDS, that a man has to pay on the first date. But I also heard from a lot of women in real life, that they don't want the man to pay, because for them it feels like taking away their independence. From their point of view a strong independent women can pay for herself.

At the end I see your point. Everyone has to strive for becoming the best version of themselves. Man and women equally! But this best version is not the same for everyone. And I think really often this gets ignored on FDS.

unemployeddenizen · 2020-07-06T00:42:45+00:00

While I don't think FDS intends to uphold the patriarchy, certain beliefs; men should pay, not show feelings (i.e. see a therapist) kinda allow me to see the reality that in order to impress the average FDSer I have to show value in a patriarchal society, be a provider, not show my feelings etc, at least initially. FDS really helped me see that dating in a lot of ways is transactional, while I often find myself attracted to a woman at first glance and thought that women experienced attraction in the same way, the reality is most women fall in love with actions. FDS inspired me to be less passive in my life because while I may not consider myself a stereotypical domineering male the reality is I have to make myself visible in a world that is run by those dudes. Being HV to me is being able to show those dominant traits while being in tune with my inner big softee.

catwebard · 2020-07-11T23:57:19+00:00

I lurk on FDS for some good 🍵. I have nothing against the women/incognito men on the sub, but they post some truly funny shit. I have been amused more than once browsing through the memes.

dntbfllikeidid · 2020-07-02T03:27:35+00:00

I think it focuses too much on memes and not enough on meaningful discussion. The front page is almost exclusively images or twitter screenshots talking about dumping low value guys and how women should raise their standards. All subreddits tend to be pretty repetitive, but FDS is extremely repetitive.

Title	A question for guys
Author	NecessaryCook
Upvotes	76
Comments	40
Date	July 2, 2020 1:34 AM UTC (6 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/askFDS
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/askfds/comments/hjnubk/a-question-for-guys/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/askFDS/a-question-for-guys.1628974 https://theredarchive.com/post/1628974

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