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Male circumcision is bad for everyone: in-depth article

Belgium-all-round · 2023-12-15T16:52:14+00:00

It's a long read, but well worth it. The author is a well-established bio-ethical expert. In his analysis, he totally destroys the WHO on it's...

Belgium-all-round

December 15, 2023

299 upvotes

/r/MensRights

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Title	Male circumcision is bad for everyone: in-depth article
Author	Belgium-all-round
Upvotes	299
Comments	185
Date	December 15, 2023 4:52 PM UTC (2 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/18j4iy3/male_circumcision_is_bad_for_everyone_indepth/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/male-circumcision-is-bad-for-everyone-in-depth.1240829 https://theredarchive.com/post/1240829

Comments

[–]asianfoodtofulover 30 points31 points32 points 2 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]TheFireMachine 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Try to imagine the mental fortitude a man has to have to accept the trauma of what happened to him. As men, a massive part of our identity is our manhood. What kind of man is capable of looking at their penis, with a massive chunk of it cut away. covered in scar tissue. knowing this was done to him to make him suffer?

The deepest cognitive dissonance people can experience comes from sex and sexuality. These american men are experiencing extreme levels of trauma, hence the massive amount of cognitive dissonance. Unfortunately for them, there is a line between victim and abuser. Once they decide to cut their sons my sympathy for them stops. They cant leave their sons intact, because that would erode their defense mechanisms. If the son is intact and fine, then the father was never really better of being cut.

It is a particularly evil form of abuse.

[–]Notcreative345 16 points17 points18 points 2 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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[–]disayle32 72 points73 points74 points 2 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Mr_rairkim 26 points27 points28 points 2 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]mst0000 5 points6 points7 points 2 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Exactly. That is what you would expect from a sensible society. To those who live there, it may seem unnecessary to add legal protections for boys. This needs to change. Here is my own experience:

I live in a part of the western world with a similarly minuscule cutting rate to your country of Estonia, yet I was subjected to a “radical cut” or “low and tight” type cutting, at four years of age. No medical or religious reason. Parental preference was all that was needed. As a result, I have lifelong physical, functional, psychological problems. I have always felt ostracized and inferior, having been raised in an intact society.

No matter how rare or uncommon this practice may be in most of the world, you are never completely safe from being cut…..if you’re a boy.

Laws must change, to protect ALL children, not just girls.

[–]Mr_rairkim 2 points3 points4 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Belgium-all-round[S] 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Paul_Allens_Comment 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Just like some women supposedly think babies penises are way sexier when you rip some of the skin off from around it, I think women with small feet are so fucking hot

Thinking of breaking a few of my daughters toes and foot bones to curl them underneath her foot when she's born if i ever have one so that her future husband will be turned on by her tiny feet

Sure she'll have lifelong pain and disfigurement but if you do it when they're a baby it's not as bad as if you do it as an adult so obviously everyone should be doing this to their infant daughters, since i think it's sexy.

/s (Google foot binding if you think that's crazy, it only stopped in 1960, women are still alive with it)

It's so stupid to me that there's so many barbaric ancient foolish body modification practices done and everyone can accept that it's wrong to force that freak shit on innocent children - until it comes to male circumcision and then they want to pretend as if it wasn't just some dumbass religious shit but pretend that ancient people knew all the supposed new age health benefits of it (that don't actually exist).

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[+]Other-Medium5577 -113 points-112 points-111 points 2 years ago* (192 children) | Copy Link

We can argue about circumcision, and there is certainly good argument against the routine practice, but the parameters of the debate can't include tendentious language like "mutilation" when in fact it is not mutilating by any stretch of the imagination. Stop this crap please. It is nothing like female genital surgery. Holy shit grow the fuck up. Just stop this sniveling cry-baby victimhood bullshit. This is a forum for men, not for children.

[Addendum: lots of heat and emotion, I post this so ppl can look up studies for themselves. This is not a systematic review but it does put the lie to misconceptions that persist on this subject, like the Meissner corpuscle nonsense. I never said that I want neonates to be circumcised, I said that it is not mutilating. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41443-020-00354-y]

[–]lastlaugh100 89 points90 points91 points 2 years ago (24 children) | Copy Link

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[+]Other-Medium5577 -41 points-40 points-39 points 2 years ago (19 children) | Copy Link

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[–]disayle32 7 points8 points9 points 2 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

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[–]disayle32 4 points5 points6 points 2 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

And you don't get to pretend that you didn't flip flop JUST FUCKING NOW.

Further up this comment chain, you said:

I am indifferent to the choice but would not choose it for my children.

And then just now you said:

I oppose routine neonatal circumcision, but not strongly.

And again:

Now does that mean I promote it for newborns? No. Does it mean that I want my kids to be circumcised? No. Does it mean that I want other people circumcised? No.

You're either indifferent to it or opposed to it. FUCKING PICK ONE. And should you choose the latter, then get with the goddamn program and stop fighting tooth and nail against everyone else who is also opposed to it.

I said: circumcision is not mutilating. Can you understand basic science and English? If not we can go over it again. Over and over until you get it straight.

YES IT FUCKING IS MUTILATION. STOP THIS BULLSHIT. You've had the dictionary definition of "mutilation" quoted at you in this thread over and over and over again, but you just go "Hurr durr it's not mutilation because REASONS! CHECKM8 INTACTIVISTS!" over and over and over again. Inb4 "but but but muh scientific studies!" Find me one single scientific study that says, verbatim, "Circumcision isn't mutilation". I'll save you the trouble: you can't. And I could never find one that says, verbatim, "Circumcision is mutilation", because the definition isn't changed by scientific studies. All the scientific studies you can ever find will not change this one simple fact: removing or altering healthy tissue from the body of anyone under 18 is not okay, and it has never been okay, and it will never be okay. Your utter inability to get this one simple fact through your thick skull shows that you are a complete asshole, a complete idiot, and very likely a complete sociopath as well. Fuck you.

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[–]Key-Tie2542 38 points39 points40 points 2 years ago* (15 children) | Copy Link

We can argue about circumcision, and there is certainly good argument against the routine practice, but the parameters of the debate can't include tendentious language like "mutilation" when in fact it is not mutilating by any stretch of the imagination. Stop this crap please. It is nothing like female genital surgery. Holy shit grow the fuck up. Just stop this sniveling cry-baby victimhood bullshit. This is a forum for men, not for children.

I did not downvote you, because I don't believe in downvotes.

But your comment is exactly what many men find disgusting about modern society. You are dismissing clear gender bias in bodily freedom and control, and you are then dismissing real trauma by victim blaming. If it were true that Real Men(R) shouldn't be bothered by this, then what about the infant victims? And why can't girls "Woman Up" at every little claim of sexism that pops up all over the media on a minute basis?

The usurpation of freedom that comes when the medical system or parents decide to modify the genitals of a boy is scary. For so many parents and legal authorities to then continue on to moralize or illegalize what an adult man can do with his modified genitals fits under the definition of slavery. And frankly, such practice is already illegal under so many laws (assault, rape, and gender equality). Boy circumcision is banned or has been officially reprimanded by several European governments, the UN, the American Academy of Pediatrics, and others.

[I see now I was wrong about the AAP. If anything, they do seem to support infant circumcision. Interestingly, they gave a report in 2010 that sparked immediate professional and scientific outrage regarding the apparent indifference or even support of "ritual nick" female mutilation, something outright condonement for male circumcision has never received. https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140673610610422/fulltext.]

[+]Other-Medium5577 3 points4 points5 points 2 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

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[–]lastlaugh100 17 points18 points19 points 2 years ago* (5 children) | Copy Link

You don’t work in healthcare. The AAP recommends anesthesia, doesn’t mean providers do it.

Do you even know what anesthesia is?

If the provider gives a sugar lollipop is that anesthesia? How about a rectal Tylenol suppository? Because that’s what babies get in the newborn nursery- I have been there.

Is a penile dorsal nerve block enough for anesthesia? Nerve blocks are a hard skill to hit a tiny nerve blind with lidocaine with risk of injection into an artery causing death or tissue necrosis and harder when doing them on a patient who can’t communicate. I have never seen one done on in real life. Only YouTube where providers know they are being filmed.

The child can’t communicate if he’s having pain, local anesthesia is not enough.

Anesthesia means without awareness, general anesthesia is needed to achieve that.

Pediatricians don’t do general anesthesia in their office, that requires OR privileges which pediatricians don’t have, also requires an operating room and anesthesia provider.

Family medicine doctors do not operate and don’t step foot in the operating room, they don’t have hospital privileges let alone operating room privileges.

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but the parameters of the debate can't include tendentious language like "mutilation" when in fact it is not mutilating by any stretch of the imagination. Stop this crap please. It is nothing like female genital surgery.

Well lets check out the definition of Mutilation shall we?

Merriam Webster - Mutilation (noun)

: an act or instance of destroying, removing, or severely damaging a limb or other body part of a person or animal
: an act or instance of damaging or altering something radically

Oxford Learner's Dictionary - Mutilation (noun)

severe damage to somebody's body, especially when part of it is cut or torn off; the act of causing such damage
severe damage to something; the act of causing severe damage to something

Vocabulary.com - Mutilation (noun)

the act of severely damaging or ruining something
an injury that causes disfigurement or that deprives you of a limb or other important body part

I linked to 3 different dictionaries so that you couldn't accuse me of cherry picking...
But yeah.. you do not seem to understand what the word "Mutilate / Mutilation" means..

Because its quite clear from multiple definitions that Male Circumcision IS mutilation.
Also, no one is saying "Female Circumcision isn't Genital Mutilation" all we're saying is that cutting the genitals of ANYONE without consent should be called mutilation..

If you don't understand this then don't let the door hit you on your way out...

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[–]Paul_Allens_Comment 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

Let's say everyone here says that you're a genius and we've all been emotional cry babies for exaggerating the word to mutilation.

Is that your only point ?

Like you are literally on board with everything else, you're just hung up on the semantics of the word choice ?

I don't think so, bc if you agreed it's a morally atrocious, fundamentally stupid practice that needs to be stopped immediately on infants then i don't think you would be so sensitive and cry babyish about the semantics of the word choice.

So is it really you who's the emotional cry baby bc your parents mutilated you as an infant taking away your choice, but you like your parents and don't like to think back to when you were a weak helpless infant getting mutilated, so you bargain and downplay it as saying "it's not that bad, it's no big deal, I'm fine, it's fine that it happened. I don't need to confront those justified negative angry feelings that scare me if it's no big deal. So I'll just say it's no big deal"

That way you don't have to confront your parents , religion or second guess doctors and be counted among the "cringe" activists who are rightfully furious at an ancient inhumane practice.

So then... are you really the weakling? The man too cowardly to stand for something , have principles and fight to make a better future for your and other innocent children by speaking up ? Do you really deserve to call yourself a man if you cower in fear against mutilating babies just bc doing so might make you potentially be perceived as weak ?

That's what's weak. You. Imagine crying like a baby over a "tendentious" word choice lol

[+]Other-Medium5577 -1 points0 points1 point 2 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

[–]Paul_Allens_Comment 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

Wow you're still crying ?

Lmao about a word that hurts your feelings ?

Boo hoo little boy, sorry your manhood was mutilated but being in denial about it and bargaining to hope it's not so bad won't change what happened to you as a weak innocent baby. So get over yourself, man up and join us in the fight for men's rights or go cry in the corner like a little boy just bc you're too weak to stand for something.

Bc this sub is for men.

"sTuDiEs"

Ok answer me this if you're sincere ? What about all the surveys of the men who had it done later in life who claim that it does make a difference in function and reduce their sensitivity ?

What's your mental gymnastics there, do you just ignore them bc it's inconvenient to admit that you're wrong ? Or do you actually think they're all a conspiracy of false flag liars just to sow dissent ? Funny how you sound totally pro circumcision all the sudden for a guy who just said it shouldn't be done to babies.

[+]Other-Medium5577 -1 points0 points1 point 2 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]Paul_Allens_Comment 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

So just more denial and strawmanning then ? Or can you just not read? Bc i didn't say studies, i said the individual surveys where men say - it does make a difference in function and sensitivity.

Be a man if you're going to stand up against something, don't be weak, say it with your chest. Admit that you are intentionally ignoring them and then say why - do you think that they're lying ? Or do you think that they're fake made up people ? Or do you just not really care even if it is true?

I'll wait bc we both know you've got no good answer to this. So squirm and dodge a direct answer again or man up and say it, your choice.

You are crying to people you supposedly support over a word - bc it's too strong of a word for your weak sensibilities - it makes you uncomfortable. You honestly sound like a child, tbh i hope you are bc kids outgrow bad takes

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[+]Other-Medium5577 -7 points-6 points-5 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]bdtails 3 points4 points5 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]WildAsOrange -16 points-15 points-14 points 2 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]HelpfulAppointment54 11 points12 points13 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]xxx_gamerkore_xxx 6 points7 points8 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]KochiraJin 2 points3 points4 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]WeenisToMyBeanis -9 points-8 points-7 points 2 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]Huntress_Nyx 2 points3 points4 points 2 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[+]WeenisToMyBeanis 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link