When did you discuss your timelines?

MetalDevils · 2017-11-29T14:42:14+00:00

It really makes me sad when I see women that have over-extended themselves and committed too much of their time, effort, and resources in exchange for far too little.

It makes me even sadder when I see people asking these women to 'justify' their desire for marriage or kids.

I agree that all of these concerns seem to happen too late either due to a flawed vetting system, or the woman trusting and assuming too much.

On all my first dates, I was clear about two things:

my long term 'someday goals'
that it takes time to build up to those things, and I'm more immediately focused on simply connecting with someone and having fun.

Trust must be tempered with observations and actual 'check ins' that happen organically. The closer you are to someone, the easier it should be for both people to share their dreams, fears, and goals.

A high functioning relationship has to be built on honesty, and shared values. A man that is being clear about his aspirations, won't play games and keep a woman guessing. He will be direct, and push forward consistently. This is not the same as rushing progress.

I have had two extremely serious relationships, and they turned out very differently. Both were with dominant, masculine, and assertive men.

1: we made a plan that would unfold over 4-5 years. It involved him going back to school to specialize in his preferred area, us moving to a different state, looking and buying a house together after he paid off his debt. Getting settled for a year, and then discussing the possibility of marriage.

We established from the start that neither of us wanted kids, and marriage wasn't important. We just wanted to be happy and enjoy each other. He had never learned to watch his savings, or work to build up his funds. He wasn't adverse to acquiring some debt for things he really liked. He also made a good deal of money, and wasn't financially pressed. After 2.3 years of on and off dating, I moved in with him, and we lived together for almost a year.

I helped him pay off his debt, and accumulate a good deal of savings. I encouraged him to pursue the things he wanted. He was depressed, and I was confident that I could help him cope. I ended up being a 'driver' in many ways, which I didn't not want. He just leaned on me more and more, and even though he asked for my help, he also resented my ability to help.

He decided to change our plan out of the blue, and expected me to happily go along with it. Suddenly he wanted children, and to get married. I did not feel joy when he shared this, I was alarmed. I asked about everything we had planned, and he simply said "we'll figure the rest out."

I ended the relationship, which was extremely hard for me, but it's something I have never regretted.

2: again, I was clear upfront about my long term goals. I was older by this point, and we both knew what we wanted. We went on 2 dates, and then formed a relationship.

We talked extensively about our personal philosophies, morals, fears and goals. These were not targeted discussions, we just enjoyed talking to each other.

He had to move apartments twice in the first year and a half, and then we decided it made sense to live together. We're still together and life is great.

We do a lot of smaller projects together, and talk both about the short and long term without deliberately having to sit down and focus on either. These conversations happen simply because we want the same things, and we have very similar priorities.

We are invested in each other. He's gone from never wanting to marry, to saying that he wants me to be his wife. He's the first man I'd ever even consider marrying. We don't want kids. He has responsible spending habits, and great FTO.

We both want the same things, and we bring different strengths to every problem. He's more assertive, and I like to plan. I trust his instincts, and he handles logistics for certain projects. He relies on me to do preliminary research, because it's something I enjoy, and it also helps me learn about things he's already familiar with.

I had a very thorough vetting process, and as a result, I never had a 'bad' relationship. I have had three serious relationships, and many other men that I simply went on a few dates with, but never pursued beyond that, or allowed them to pursue me.

I am a defensive driver, while still understanding how to be aggressive when needed. I was never eager to drive, and was very uncomfortable behind the wheel for a long time. I practiced, and learned, and figured out how to balance safety with actually getting to my destination. I applied a similar approach to dating, and it has served me well.

I think it's necessary for women to at least touch on their end goals from the start (marriage, kids). Even more importantly, they have to be clear about wanting an LTR. I figured out how to convey "I only have sex within a relationship" in a way that suits my personality, what worked for me may not work for others.

Balancing honesty without coming off as desperate or too needy isn't going to be easy for everyone....but it is necessary.

Women need to have a clear idea of what they want, what they must avoid, what they can actually earn, and where they want to end up. More importantly, they have to understand the pros and cons of different paths.

If a woman wants marriage and children, she should absolutely avoid cohabitating with a man. If they are engaged, then she should only agree to live with him if the wedding date is set, and they have reserved a few non-refundable services. I've seen too many women think "we'll be getting married soon, it's okay to share a roof" only to end up confused and unhappy when the man 'somehow' loses motivation and steam to walk down the aisle.

This was a well understood idea once, men won't marry if they have a wife in every sense of the word except legally.

Women should also never have children out of wedlock. I'll add some links to other threads and discussions later when I have time.

For now, I'd just encourage everyone to keep an eye on /u/girlwithabike. She has a thread up right now that will be the first of several installments, judging by the title.

Kara_El · 2017-11-28T15:49:09+00:00

I met my husband online, and I will say it's a perk of online dating that you can talk about things early on that you could never discuss with someone the night you meet them in a bar. Before we met, I knew my husband wanted kids, was gainfully employed, and shared my religious and political views, so it wasn't awkward at all to verify this information with each other on the first date.

As for our timelines, on our second date, my husband mentioned his friends who were married after seven months and I brought up my friend who'd been living with a man for five years and had no indication a ring was forthcoming. This was the perfect opportunity to agree that both scenarios were a little crazy for us and that engagement around a year and a half and marriage around two years was pretty ideal. Honestly, not knowing each other better made this conversation less threatening, because it was clear we were both being entirely hypothetical.

The hypotheticals went out the window at about eight months, the first time we went away together and the first time we had sex. We'd been saying "I love you" for about four months. That's when the "if we get married" started and I'd say that changed to "when" around a year. It was all very natural, because we'd been straight with each other from the start. I can't imagine being with someone for two years and wondering when I was allowed to bring up marriage, though I will say my husband and I met at 27 and 30, not 20 and 23.

TheLaughingRhino · 2017-11-28T22:16:26+00:00

My observation and experience is at some point, even in the early stages of basic courtship, people will talk about wanting or having kids or not ( I suppose people with multiple divorces and already blended families and pre-existing kids, that's a different animal, this thread seems to be, my guess, more focused on two people truly single and unattached)

Easiest thing for a woman to do is determine if the guy wants to have kids. If she wants them ( most do) and he says

1) No kids - Then leave. Be polite and end the date well, but leave.

2) Unsure - Then leave. If it's not a Yes, it's a No. You'll find this is true for almost everything in life.

3) Wants kids for sure

Under Situation#3, simply say you want kids before X age because it would mean severe risk to the child's health to have them too young. And that before having kids, you think two people should be married and enjoyed some DINK lifestyle first ( Double Income, No Kids) to build a solid foundation for those potential kids and to spend time really bonding with the spouse. To do things like travel, share some hobbies, get to know each other really well.

I've said this before here and I realize this is not so pleasant to hear at times, or any time at all - Nearly all men marry as a form of progression. When thing are settled with their education, career and living situation, then they'll make the move. When "it's time" As long as the woman is someone he finds attractive, he gets regular sex, she's pleasant and doesn't stress him out too much, when it's "time", odds are he'll do it.

Men operate logically ( well many do, some dudes are just idiots....) and that means linear progression over time. You tell a guy in a weight room that it will take years to build muscle and a Greek God physique, and most will be OK, that's what I have to do.

If you want to appeal to a man, you have to appeal to his ego and appeal to his logic. Appealing to ego is more involved than I want to go in this thread, maybe in another down the road. Appealing to logic is really the format I discussed above.

I want healthy kids.
I don't want to be so old that my kids are graduating high school and then changing MY diapers
I want to be married to give those kids a stable foundation in life, a chance for life success
I want to enjoy some married time alone with my spouse to see the world, travel, do hobbies, expand the interpersonal relationship
In order to do this, I'd ideally like to be married by X age, but only if I meet the right person, if not, "I'd rather be alone" ( Most women don't feel this way, and most won't mean it, but men would want to hear it, everyone here can decide how to unpack that for themselves)

To a man, this type of linear progression, discussed this way, "Makes sense"

If he's not vibing with that, and it's marriage and kids you want, then walk.

IMHO, have the conversation early, just be upfront about it. Some women will think, if I talk about X to him, like this or in this scenario, I'll scare him off.

A real Captain, the kind of man you want to marry, isn't scared of talking about anything. A real Captain does not fear death. Does not fear shame. Does not fear regret. If he loves you, he will tear down the sky from the heavens above for you. He will search this Earth down to the last speck of dust to find you if you are lost. He only fears one thing - Letting down the people he cares about the most, when they needed him the most.

Deal breaking compatibility ( having kids, financial values, sexual values, sometimes marriage or not, sometimes religion or not) needs to be a head on collision. A car crash where you smash into everything in sight. Here's what I used to tell my men in training. Fast and dirty is better than just dirty. The trade of commitment and resource allocation for regular access to legal sex is old as time itself. The details like kids and marriage talk is sometimes the dirty aspects of getting to your goal. You aren't going to make it cleaner, just make it faster.

A light suggestion - Get a movie, one that's a comedy, with married people as characters, and watch it together. Seque the conversation to marriage in general. Ask him how he thinks about marriage in general. Then discuss your values, then unpack it as you describe. If the dude is open to marriage and possibly marriage to you, then he'll be OK with it. If he doesn't, then it's a dead end and you've saved yourself some time. Rejection of what you want is an ego hit, but it's also a time saver. I'd rather save time than spare my ego. This is a human coping skill, not just a RP one, not just a RPW one.

If linear progression sounds simple, it's because it is painfully simple. Guys just want blowjobs and steaks without too much hassle.

Men need to appeal to how women FEEL, not how they think

Women need to appeal to how men THINK, not how they feel.

The differences can be irritating and wearisome at times, but this is how we have survived as a species so long. Dudes feeling all the time were not hunting and building fires and shelters. Women ignoring their feelings had no coping strategy when social hierarchy meant whether she and her child would ever eat again or not.

Good luck

hostwithmost · 2017-11-28T17:17:10+00:00

Before we went on a date. We were friends with obvious attraction to each other. It felt very easy to say what I want for myself while he was a friend because it was hypothetical (like OP said) didn't put pressure on him or us. He likedhow much I knew myself. One of the first things that caught his attention was my stance on child rearing. He says it made sense to him and pushed him more towards 'maybe I want kids' while he was solidly in the middle before. I knew I wanted a life with him before we went on a date given no red flags that can only come out in a longer term relationship.

RainbowKitty77 · 2017-11-28T18:02:09+00:00

I wouldn't say we really ever discussed a timeline. Does that mean we should? I've been upfront about wanting marriage tho from about five months in. He actually started the discussion. Actually after some thought we did discuss a timeline. I just forget about it.

ClaireBear89 · 2017-11-28T18:56:32+00:00

My husband back when he was my boyfriend (for about 3 years) always was saying I was the girl he would marry. It broke my heart when that didn't ever materialize and we ended up breaking up (for several contributing outside factors too) and were apart ~2 years. We were amicable and kept in touch and I always felt I had screwed up and lost him and missed my chance. Well circumstances changed for both of us and we reconnected and he proposed as soon as I went to see him. So I guess I didn't go about it the proper rpw way, yet got the desired result and work on being a good wife to him with the methods.
A man won't propose till he's ready!

nancywheelie · 2017-11-28T22:20:24+00:00

We started talking about the future in college, but we're both pursuing further studies, so he said he won't feel ready to propose until after a steady income, which will be in about six years. I'm enjoying just being a girlfriend for now.

BewareTheOldMan · 2017-11-29T04:47:16+00:00

...quite a few recent posts/summaries highlighting the right time to introduce hot-button topics or recommendations on how to get to marriage/wife/family end state.

Aren't parents, family members, and mentors teaching young women techniques to navigate these issues in 21st Century modern-era dating? Trying to make up the difference later in the relationship or later in life is counterproductive and wastes time.

I submit this topic is possibly "Sidebar-Worthy."

This a Repost from an earlier Discussion Thread, but may be helpful...

Best practices for women who want marriage within a specific/approximate timeline (leading to a natural conclusion):

Be upfront and very early in the relationship. Date with the express purpose for marriage and no other reason. It's best to make this decision when a woman's Sexual Market Value (SMV) is highest and has strong potential for increased Relative Market Value (RMV). Also – date only like-minded/marriage-ready men. Anyone else is a waste of time.

Establish 5 x ideal character traits/criteria in your ideal mate. Be able to meet (or be close) the same criteria.

Showcase and emphasize feminine appearance/general fitness, wife skills, domestic skills, and mother skills, intelligence, responsibility/accountability traits, compatibility, and personality.

Sexual activity is consistent within the boundaries, rules, and expectations of an exclusive relationship. If sexually active, be genuine and enthusiastic. If sex is off the table, be ready for genuine and enthusiastic sex post-marriage and be sexually willing to learn from and teach your new husband.

This is not foolproof, but is a fairly decent guide to get to marriage – not just a ceremony. More importantly, post-marriage is the time to continue pre-marriage behavior and make continual improvements. Be sure to earn the position in the marriage every day.

Many women expect a man’s very best effort. She has to exert her very best effort as well.

A man’s actions should be clearly indicative and trending toward the established timeline. If not – be prepared to terminate the relationship. Allow for a timeline flexibility, but virtually every effort is focused toward getting to lifetime commitment, a fulfilling marriage, and great family life.

Wishing good luck and a road to a happy marriage – pass this technique to your friends, other young women, and future generations.

Rivkariver · 2017-11-29T14:46:33+00:00

I guess it's easy for me as a Christian. We both have the same goals, but I was fine bringing up these goals directly quite early, since it's just my religion. I brought it up as soon as he asked to be exclusive which he did fairly quickly. But I phrased it as me following my faith and that I only date with a purpose.

There's really no cookie cutter timeline. Just do not suppress your needs. It's fine to be direct on these big issues...nobody is going to do it for you.

girlwithabike · 2017-11-29T20:01:36+00:00

I followed all the BP behaviors early on in my relationship. It worked out and I'm lucky for that, but it was really draining at a certain point and I wouldn't recommend it. We moved in together incredibly early. I felt ok doing that because he was moving into my apartment. It seemed like "alright I'm not sure where it's headed but if he leaves me - I still have my space".

Except then we had to move for him to finish school. I didn't want to leave my space but he put his foot down and I could either leave him or the apartment. I chose to leave the apartment. It worked out for me but it was a hell of a period in our lives. I was unhappy and he was too busy for me. This wouldn't have been nearly so unpleasant if I had stayed in my own space until he was ready to really be together.

Then I went back to school and he was waiting for me to be done to propose. But we never had check ins or anything that let me feel like I was going on anything but blind trust. It was a huge strain and it probably almost broke us more than once. It definitely almost broke me.

We eloped when I was 30.

It all made complete sense and none of it was a big deal to me until it was. I would have moments where I was sure that it (marriage) was not going to happen and I was unhappy. I was stressing my way through work and school and caring for the house (I was terrible at it at the time, it felt like a burden and I really resented it).

I love my husband and I would never want to be with anyone else but if I had to do it over, I'd have been much clearer about what I wanted from the beginning. And I wouldn't have let the early stages of love and infatuation lead me to cohabitation so quickly. It's really not the best road to go down.

allaboutthepill · 2017-12-27T17:51:51+00:00

Interesting reading! Do you have any advice when is it the right time to talk about marriage, kids etc? Is it the first date, second date or when becoming official?

M23W0OH7FV2t · 2017-11-29T08:12:00+00:00

I'm unmarried, but I was curious as to what a successfully married guy thought, so I pointed my cousin at this. And here is what he said:

It's never too soon and never too late to discuss anything. There's no hard-and-fast rule, or, if there is one, I wasn't privy to it. My wife and I met at a meetup and took our first trip together as our 3^rd date. It went 11 months longer than it should have because she was diagnosed with breast cancer. I'm not one to up and leave when things get hairy, so I stayed and took care of her best I could. As you saw from the wedding photos, she's fine now. If you ask her, she'll tell you that the reason she agreed to be my life partner is that, I stayed with her when she was sick. I checked out books from the library on cancer, I read them, I digested them, I internalised them, and then I applied what I'd learned when dealing with her case. I suspect the "sticking power" I employed gave her a nod that I was devoted to making it work, which raised her willingness to do the same.

If you'd like, said cousin's on reddit and I'm sure, would be happy to trade messages with you. Or, if the mods (and he) agree, I'll ask him to do an AMA here? What does everyone say?

Title	When did you discuss your timelines?
Author	Kara_El
Upvotes	11
Comments	30
Date	November 28, 2017 3:43 PM UTC (8 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/RedPillWomen
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/RedPillWomen/comments/7g4zv0/when_did_you_discuss_your_timelines/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/RedPillWomen/when-did-you-discuss-your-timelines.73835 https://theredarchive.com/post/73835

Comments

1: we made a plan that would unfold over 4-5 years. It involved him going back to school to specialize in his preferred area, us moving to a different state, looking and buying a house together after he paid off his debt. Getting settled for a year, and then discussing the possibility of marriage.

2: again, I was clear upfront about my long term goals. I was older by this point, and we both knew what we wanted. We went on 2 dates, and then formed a relationship.