Catch 22 of Pickup???

TheCuriousDude · 2015-06-18T17:40:55+00:00

It comes down to what the practical exhibition of outcome independence looks like. In pick-up, one can easily become frustrated by constant rejection and this is why outcome independence is so important to internalize. However, I detest whenever I see the advice "just have fun". I understand that it is very difficult to have pure outcome independence. If I told you to do something, your first thoughts would probably be "What reason do I have to do that something? What is the goal of doing that something?"

In practice, outcome independence isn't the absolute lack of an expected outcome. Rather, it's the act of changing your expected goal to a more reasonable outcome. Indeed, the underlying point of "just have fun" is helpful: "having fun" is generally an easier outcome to achieve than "seduce the girl". However, you're doing pick-up to improve your pick-up skills. You can't improve your skills if you're too busy "having fun" to make an approach. The problem with the "just have fun" advice is that it provides a cop-out for newbies too afraid to put themselves out there. "Oh, I didn't really approach any women but I had fun, so it wasn't too bad."

Clearly, the best advice has to be less difficult to do than "seduce the girl" and more helpful toward improving your skills than "just have fun". Outcome independence is focusing on what you can control (the action, not the outcome). I contend that "make an approach" fits this description. It's also much more specific and controllable than the previous vague outcomes. Treat it like a task on a to-do list. Once you've done an approach, you've achieved your goal and can do whatever you wish. The rest of the interaction becomes easier because you have no additional expectations for it. Once you've done this for a while, you can set more strict goals and rules. An example would be that an approach does not count unless you attempt some sort of close (date close, number close, kiss close, fuck close, etc.) This way you don't use the cop-out of counting going up to a girl, saying "hi", and leaving as an actual approach.

xZouth · 2015-06-18T18:18:13+00:00

I feel as tho playing it cool and acting like your not interested in a girl only works in situations where you already know the girl i.e. work, your friend introducing you to someone, group dates etc... Because if your too proactive in those situations, your going to be labeled the man whore and there's nothing wrong with label if it fits your personality as a extrovert and not allow others opinions to lower your self esteem.

I also feel playing it cool works really well when you have a busy life and your constantly meeting new people in a organic way and your whole life is not dependent on getting girls.

betarex · 2015-06-18T23:45:16+00:00

The time to act aloof is when you already have the social proof ie, ripped gym body, center of the party, multiple girls flirting/dating. It's during these times that you increase their interest by ignoring their wiles.

When you have no social proof is when you chase. However, don't confuse chasing and being needy. At no time is is lt acceptable to being a clinger or begging. Chasing is pursuing actively, but never showing desperation.

alex0919 · 2015-06-18T19:22:44+00:00

I think those schools of thought are two different extremes, and both can be potentially dangerous. I've followed the first more closely, and have had better success personally.

What works best personally, like I said, is something closer to the former. I'd rather just walk up to a girl I find cute and tell her that she is rather than agonize over it, see what she's doing, move forward, and if she's busy get a date and potential close/girl friend. But during the process, even while in the relationship, you need to keep in mind the second process.

She's sexually attracted to you and willing to go on the date or be your girlfriend because you polarize the interaction/relationship with masculinity. The second she's your mission in life and you'd do anything for her to be your girlfriend or to go out with you, you lose her 99.9% of the time. Even if you think it's a numbers game, if you don't improve and realize one girl is not your livelihood, even though love is a hard drug, you will keep losing one after another.

It may seem that sometimes girls lack empathy for your needs as a man, but it's for this reason why you're a man, you shouldn't be needy of her. You are the masculine dynamic that mixes with her feminine dynamic, she will be very emotional and make no rational sense (the amount of times I've seen men get angry over that's hysterical) half the time. If you realize female logic isn't parallel with male logic, and their emotions are usually what they build logic off of, you'll be successful. The second you lose your sexually active and aggressive frame of a truly masculine male, your relationship with her will deteriorate.

There's a reason for seduction, it's to evoke the right emotions in a girl to become intimate with you and possibly be in a relationship with you. By being in her presence as a man, you activate this emotionality of hers; you must be able to psychologically tolerate all of her ambivalence and not freak out or ignore or yell at her. You need to understand it and maintain your masculine frame to keep an ongoing relationship that's dynamic with her. Girls feel the way they do due to what's happening right now, that's why there're strategies in seduction such as "escalate the interaction on a high point, her past putting her in a bad mood (e.g. bringing up ostracizing, self harm, rape, etc.), move fast during an interaction with a woman while she's still very attracted to and she's experiencing some anxiety towards you as such a new man in her life, cementing emotions and using callback, etc."

I think a relationship is the pinnacle of seduction, but so many people - here especially - reject that fact. It's one of the hardest things to keep one girl sexually attracted and excited in a relationship for a long period of time; compared to appealing to a girl's very rash and volatile emotions at first meeting you of excitement, anticipation, attraction, and lust - which are much more primal.

I could go on forever, maybe that's a good thing, maybe it's not because I start to confuse all of you. But the thing is, there's an equilibrium you must meet, and either extreme will not be successful ultimately.

recyclablebantha · 2015-06-19T06:36:36+00:00

First off, NO. These aren't accurate representations of the actual schools of thought. Though they do represent the choices that rookies THINK they have when they start. They often think that they have to be a machine and grind their way through girls and that they have to "show interest" by verbalizing things that they don't need to. They often think that escalation is on some kind of universal timer, etc.

And the popular view before guys get more experience, is that the alternative to being a machine like that, is to be so indirect that you shoot yourself in the foot for a few reasons.

Let's break it down.

Being proactive. Including things like making it known to the girl that you're interested. Treating the game like a numbers game. You're never gonna start getting girls until you do at least 1000 approaches. Be the man who makes the moves, etc, etc, etc. (Now I'm not saying that I practice all these methods, but these seem to be of the same sentiment, so I threw them all together).

Proactive is good. But as for how to be proactive......
Showing interest through actions is good. Showing what you want is good. But it should be balanced with an awareness of what she wants.
Yeah, it's numbers. There is a percentage of the female population that likes the kind of guy you are. And there is a percentage of girls who won't like you. And you can't know which is which until you get in there. And if you doubt yourself as you do this, you'll turn away many girls who'd otherwise like you.
But you don't need to grind out 1000 approaches before you start "getting girls." This is ridiculous.
You also don't need to be the person "who makes the moves." You can be the one "making moves," or she can be the one picking up on you. The important thing is whether you like the girl and find her attractive. At the end of the day, if you meet your dating goals, it doesn't matter who initiated what or who made what moves. Each side plays their role no matter what. The important thing is that you get out of your own way and make things happen or facilitate them happening.

Holding back. Including things like letting the girl come to you. Don't look desperate. "You don't need the girl or want, and she'll come to you" ideas. Never let her know how much she means to you. Act cool in bars/public and do not go out with the intention of picking up.

Not being desperate.... of course.
But this idea of "don't show desire" and the girl will just come to you.... it doesn't really fly. It involves SO much work to get a girls attention and then push-pull to make this work. It ties a guy up in knots and isn't worth the trouble. You don't even get to be you if you go this route. Which will suck, over time.
On the other hand, going out with the goal of having fun, socializing and seeing where interactions go, is far better than going out needing to get laid. One way is more fun and allows girls to feel less pressure, and the other way makes you come off like an energy drain. Think about it, which is more attractive, a girl who's having fun or one who can't have fun without something external? When you go out, it's perhaps better to think of your interactions with people as Discovery Processes. You have no idea where it will go or if the person is even worth your time. But it's usually stimulating going through the process. :)
Sometimes you'll need to let a more aggressive girl take the initiative. Sometimes a girl has such high walls that you'll only be able to push to a point before you must back off a bit and let her push the last 5-10%. Each girl is different and you must PAY ATTENTION in order to see which is which.

There have been times when I went out and walked up to girls, pulled them onto the dancefloor, and got their number or made out. There were also times when I did this, and could not get any girls to even give me the time.

Right. You must be constantly observing the big picture. Sometimes the girl in front of you doesn't want a crude approach and sometime she does.

Authority8 · 2015-06-18T18:59:03+00:00

Talking to every woman you see, being friendly, and touching them a lot. That is NOT the same as looking desperate, clingy, or chasing girls.

Snake0987654321 · 2015-06-18T22:29:04+00:00

It's supposed to be confusing. Pickup is filled with such paradoxes. These paradoxes are part of what scare people away from it. As you increase in your abilities your ability to hold and stabilize these paradoxes without cognitive dissonance increases.

Here's a good paradox: if you're in a relationship with an attractive woman, there is a decent chance she will cheat on you and you will never know. There is also a smaller, but still existent change she will get impregnated by another man, never tell you and force you to raise the spawn of her infidelity and she will feel no guilt, will not care and the fact of the matter is that women who do this are not at all rare or outliers.

That being said, you should trust your girl completely and completely understand that she might cheat on you and she might not and that's ok. because if you act like the above paragraph is the whole truth and a reflection of reality you will be a needy incoherent or sexist mess. But understanding that truth will inoculate it but you must also trust it will be untrue.

Pickup is a dance of not giving a flying fuck about the girl and simultaneously drawing her in, getting her to like you and you to like her on a more than physical level. You are simultaneously chasing her and running away. The amount of confidence and congruence you have whilst playing in this paradox determines your skill. You don't even necessarily have to act on the outside like you don't care. You can tell a girl you're in love with her and you want to marry her but if in your mind you don't care wtf she does she will view it as you shoving her off.

Welcome to mental gymnastics 101

diychitect · 2015-06-19T03:19:09+00:00

To atract a woman you like, you need to take her off the pedestal.

When you like someone, you unconsciously put them on a pedestal. For newbies this is hard to grasp sometimes.

AbioticFountain · 2015-06-19T01:54:06+00:00

I think the holding back is more about long-term effects. Aka demonstrating to a girl you're interested in the you are a busy guy by not responding to texts immediately. sitting on the side of a bar doesn't seem like a good strategy, unless you have at least one friend with you. in my opinion it just makes you seem like a bit of a loner.

On the flip side, being proactive works well in very social environments (bars, parties, BBQ's, etc) it shows that you're there to be social, and that you're interested. however, you don't want to spend a whole evening chasing one girl, but instead approach, make it known you're interested, and then pull out to talk to another friend for a while. it shows both interest in her, but also that the night isn't about picking her (or anyone) up. It shows outcome independence, which it really the underlying part to both of these strategies.

Outcome independence is shown in the first example by showing that sometimes you are more interested in what you are doing, or too busy, and that that girl isn't more important than your life. It's shown in the second example by going and talking to other people, thus showing that, whether or not she's interested in you, you are still going to enjoy your night.

Just my $0.02

immrtlsaij · 2015-06-18T22:22:04+00:00

you have to make at least some kind of soft approach at the minimum. life's too short to waste it waiting for something to happen.

blaziken24 · 2015-06-19T03:29:28+00:00

It's up to the environment. For example, at a bar, the proactive style works better than the "wait and see" one when you are on your own or with other guys looking for hook ups. If you have friends who aren't there for the girls, the "wait and see" works. Girls will see a group of guys having fun and will approach if they find one to be "a cutie".

In other environments, I say go for the proactive.

thecountrynamedwhat · 2015-06-19T05:46:55+00:00

I'm a fan of the show your intent option. Ultimately I feel like it boils down to a "you miss 100% of the shots you don't take" situation.

Make it clear what you want and don't be ashamed of what you want. Look for IOIs. And don't be dependent on some stranger's opinion of you.

P.S. Because I think it's important, I hate negging. You'll probably just hurt some girl's feelings and lose all the rapport you may have built.

Cad42988 · 2015-06-19T12:23:30+00:00

haha who told you that you wouldnt start getting girls until you do 100 approaches? I've had like a 75% success rate from the get go.

here is my answer to your question in great detail. so many guys fail at cold approaches and it it usually happens by making one or more of the following 4 mistakes.

the guy screws up the timing. so many guys fail so hard on this it is unbelievable. they walk up to a girl with a group of her friends or a girl alone at a bar who has just ordered more than 1 drink. these are both terrible times to try and catch a girls interest. groups (3-5) of girls should always be approached by a group of roughly 1 less person, less than that and you look unpopular and like youre there solely to creep, more than that and you increase your competition too much. if you're approaching a girl at a bar try to do it right after she has ordered but only if she just orders drinks for herself. this is good because you know she is not about to be forced to carry drinks away from you, she is buying her own drinks so there is a 75% chance she is not there with a guy she just started seeing. so this narrows her down to single girls and girls in relationships who are out for girls night with her possibly single friends.
mistake 2, Guys go after the wrong girls. Maybe it is the thrill of challenge, or just the rapey biochemistry that makes up the greek atmosphere in academia, but for some reason guys are always most attracted to the girl that is showing no interest in them whatsoever. Then they wonder why the girl seemed cold and annoyed! learn to read body language and you should be able to know before you even talk to a girl whether or not she's interested in meeting anyone. do not try to talk to that 10 with the group of ppl and the most gorgeous resting bitch face you would swear leo D sculpted it himself, because she will shoot you down 99% of the time.
mistake 3, you're too aggressive. After reading your post I feel like you are probably guilty of this mistake. Girls all want a "nice guy" but they also all want an "asshole" and they also want validation. so the three parts need to fit together in your game. you should give the girl shit, but also give her props where she deserves it, and try not to do them back to back unless it happens in the same sentence about the same thing. too many of either will end in failure, either the girl will get bored of you and she will call you an asshole to your face and leave.

the issue with your approach is that if you approach too many girls not only did you likely not do read on any body language, other girls start to see this and it results in you looking desperate. try to find a balance between the wallflower and the shark. try to bring it down to 7 girls a night. If a girl acts disinterested after 90 seconds move on.

mistake number 4 not knowing how to close. this is an issue everyone i know has struggled with. theres that awkwardness where you think you might have the greenlight but youre not sure and youre waiting for the perfect moment that never comes, or you try to get her to leave with you but her friends are being over protective and they hate you. whatever the issue is, if there is an issue, try your very best to be non aggressive if she says no just tell her you hope she gets home safe, you had fun and she should text you. never say ill text you! so many people get caught in the trap of hanging on waiting for that girl who is probably too drunk anyways, only to never get her in a cab.

In order to close successfully you need to separate the girl from her group and get her back to your apartment, without ever indicating you want to sex. this can be tricky, many guys find it helpful to have some kind of gimmick to invite girls to see, such as a pet, a hottub, a record player, really whatever that would appeal to the girls of their type. personally I've never felt the need for one, however i do own a cat and she has gotten me laid a few times so props to you my furry wingwomen!

My advice to you, instead of just walking up to every girl and babbling nonsense, do your homework, find the girls who are glancing around the bar, if they have made eye contact with you even better. if a girl makes eye contact with you twice always try to smile or something the second time so she knows you know. Try and plan out something witty to say before you approach, i also try to guess how the girl will respond and have a witty answer for that too, usually two witty lines is more than enough to get you in the door. once youre in the door never indicate directly that you want to sleep with them but you can make jokes that bring the subject up, as long as they are witty and slightly tasteful. Personally i like to trick girls into bringing it up and then joke with them about how they arent going to get it. try to get a phone number and go back to your friends. wait 20-40 mins and repeat. in the meantime just have fun with whoever youre there with, drink shots, tell jokes, whatever. closer towards the end of the night you should have 3-7 girls who gave you their numbers find your favorite one who is still at the bar and tell her you know of another bar youve been meaning to check out because youve heard its good and ask if she would like to check it out with you. at this point I always pick the bar that happens to be across the street from my apt. depending on where I gague their interest i invite them over to take a drink at my place either before or after the bar, if they come before that's when you should be kissing them, do not wait until after the second bar! after the second bar ask them where they live, wow thats really far! do you want to swing by my place and grab a drink before you have to make that terrible trip. wazzam! like magic everytime. once the girl is there have a drink try and kiss her, if she tells you youre not getting laid act like you would have didnt want to sleep with her, and youre actually just doing her a favor by trying to save her a long trip home late at night after she's been drinking. haha tell her you just wanna make out and cuddle.

anyways the system has always worked for me, hope its helpful for you!

garnetnole · 2015-06-19T20:37:32+00:00

This is 100percent not true. Seriously. At all. No pua sits back and lets girls come to them. There is a debate about whether to approatch directly with I think youre cute, or indirectly. But everyone approatches and gets rejected. Seduction is not passive. It filters shitty girls out, it is outcome independent, and it can be indirect but never passive.

Title	Catch 22 of Pickup???
Author	Josewasframed
Upvotes	75
Comments	24
Date	June 18, 2015 5:09 PM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/seduction
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/seduction/comments/3aazih/catch_22_of_pickup/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/seduction/catch-22-of-pickup.1389759 https://theredarchive.com/post/1389759

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