Mobilization of women in Ukraine

Rol9x · 2022-06-11T07:07:06+00:00

According to my sources, Ukraine is getting ready for the mobilization of women in order to replenish its mikitary forces. The orders refer to women who...

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The only one legal reason for them I know - they're students at non-Ukrainian university. (also can be legally disabled so but I think it's not the case you talking about). But even this students should get a paper from draft military office mention this info to pass the border and as far as I know many offices tend to refuse to give this paper (I got this info in April, idk if something changed). So like I (early 20s Ukrainian university student) can't leave country, I went to military draft office saying that the law about draft mentioning that ALL students get 1 year exclude from draft each year they study, but they said they don't give this exclude paper and even if they did, I won't pass border control cause in new law about border while war only students at non-UA uni are mentioned.

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Of cause not most, but let me clear about this math. 40mil is all Ukrainian citizens around the world. Including legally in russia (not in occupied territories I mean), up to 2 mil in Poland, etc. So the real number of UA population in Ukraine before invasion was 37.5 (there was survey about this in 2020). I'm not sure, but let's take away all majors cause most of them stayed, even despite my grannies left (8mil). Let's also not count children in both pop and left (4mil and 2mil). So now we have 28 / 2 = 14 mil 18-65 yo women (or men) inside Ukraine before invasion and 2-3 mil of women escaped. So like 15% (let's down to 10% if I made a mistake in calc) of Ukrainian 18-65yo women left Ukraine. It's not even close to "most".

But much of this number are women from south-east parts (logically those areas that were most affected by invasion) who won't come back cause they will find new life, and so demography here will be worse. And this will affect different aspects of life, like for example why should I personally want to set up my own family after war here 30km from a border with russia (Kharkiv) while know all the things. It's much healthier to find job in EU and lose this trauma, etc. It just complicated issue and know one know they key for it, especially gov dudes.

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I don't know why you feel the need to make this and whataboutism thing. Mens rights and modern feminism are not equivalent

I'm not doing whataboutism here. You are making assumptions about the moral integrity of women (assuming that they would abandon feminism in droves if they faced the prospect of being drafted) with no evidential basis. I don't disagree that men's rights and feminism are not equivalent. I joined the men's rights sub to try and learn how to help issues, for example the huge number of suicides of young men. Instead, I see a neverending slew of posts about "look at this woman doing something I don't like, how dare she" or "I'm complaining about something I don't like that's actually a remnant of the patriarchy and has been improved in recent years thanks to feminism, but I'll ignore all that and find a way to blame it on feminism". It's disappointing to say the least.

All the feminist I've met have really fragile values.

Well the feminists I've met don't have fragile values. They have very basic values such as: men and women should be treated equally and respected equally, and they don't tend to deviate from their values

And It's mostly just a man-shaming hobby

I really have to call you out here for saying this. Feminism is not a hobby, just like men's rights is not a hobby. These are real people's lives we're trying to improve here!

[–]PactScharp 3 points4 points5 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

"I joined the men's rights sub to try and learn how to help issues, for example the huge number of suicides of young men."

No, you came here to "study the enemy" as it were. Any discussions surrounding male suicide that wouldn't blame the non-existent "patriarchy" & "toxic masculinity" for this issue wouldn't be to your liking & you know it.

"Instead, I see a neverending slew of posts about "look at this woman doing something I don't like, how dare she""

I've never seen that happen... and clearly you are projecting what happens on your beloved feminist subs because that's *exactly* what they are doing 24/7. In fact, I very rarely see anything about "women" here, if at all... and in the off chance that it does happen, no one is really attacking the women that are mentioned.

"or "I'm complaining about something I don't like that's actually a remnant of the patriarchy "

Voila & there we have it. Immediately blaming men for all of human suffering.

"and has been improved in recent years thanks to feminism"

Ah yes, feminism will save us all. We'll just ignore the fact that feminism, objectively, has never ONCE done a SINGLE THING in its 200 year history specifically to help men or male issues. It's never happened. Yet feminists keep taking credit for supposed "progress" for men anyway, because it feeds into their narcissistic savior complex. Of course, when feminists are called out & faced with reality, they'll admit that they haven't done anything for men, but that "it shouldn't be their job anyway". Which is fair. I don't think anyone (here) has a problem with feminism not focussing or helping men... the problem is, as just explained, feminists lie about this & even worse, they are DIRECTLY RESPONSIBLE for many issues that men currently face.

Like men not being taken seriously as DV victims & not getting any help is a direct result of feminist policy. Male victims of rape not being included by definition, or in national crime reports is also the result of feminism. The women's equality party openly opposed joint parenthood in their own manifestos ffs... feminist indoctrination & corruption in education & academia has also led to a drastic decrease in male participation & their success (female teachers specifically grade boys worse than girls, for the exact same work). Feminists also are the biggest enforcers of shaming & mocking male vulnerability, by relentlessly labelling men as "trash", as "toxic", as "fragile" or as "insecure"... and if men stand up for themselves, feminists proudly respond with pictures of their "male tears" cups.

It's true that not every "men's issue" is the result of feminism... but there are - without question - issues that ARE the result of it... and there are even more issues that have gotten significently worse as a direct result of feminist advocay & policies.

So when you blame men for these issues & actually have the guts to take credit for whatever perceived "progress" you think we've made, on feminism's behalf... that really makes you quite a disgusting person. I'm sorry, it's not even meant as an insult. But that's huge POS behavior. Plain & simple. It's victim-blaming, gas-lighting & machiavellianism all wrapped into one. Please do better & have a more honest view of the world.

"Well the feminists I've met don't have fragile values. They have very basic values such as: men and women should be treated equally and respected equally, and they don't tend to deviate from their values"

These aren't values that they live by... feminists can act as if they want to be treated "equally" to men all they want, but when they push for things like a "man tax", that's supremacy... when they protest against including women in the draft, that's supremacy... when they systemically discriminate against men & boys in education, academia & the justice system, that's supremacy. And ALL of these wicked actions by feminists went by COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY UNCHALLENGED BY THEIR PEERS.

[–]lordluke102 points 4 years ago [recovered] (3 children) | Copy Link

Stop being disingenuous. I never said i question womens integrity. I question the integrity of the vast majority of femisnist. I know plenty of women that belive in equality, but as soon as someone labels themselves as feminist, it becomes an exercise in getting back at men, that you clearly seem to get satisfaction from. Which is the definition of a hobby. It also becomes about shutting up and shaming for even discussing thier issues. Exactly what you are doing by calling MRAs whiners, so i doubt you came here in good faith. If you think feminists are even remotely more objective and caring, you need to tell me where you buy your thick-ass rose colored glasses. Feminist subs are famous for being toxic echo chambers where anyone that deviates from the scriptures, is banned. You are quite priviliged to even be able to come on this sub and shit on men left and right

Modern feminist have never improved mens lives in a way that doesn't someway improve their lives. Male reproduction rights and the draft and male objectification are all topics that feminist conviniently ignore and put down when raised, cause feminists would not benefit from it. My 55 year old semi conservative(by Danish standards) mom, cares more about mens rights than any feminist i've ever heard of.

Also just FYI, the patriachy theory is just a way for feminist to blame their shortcommings on men, but it categorically never existed. A rich ruling class, consisting of both and men controls society. Not the men that feminist somehow claim are both evil masterminds in oppression and idiots who need stay out of any rights conversation

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I get your original argument and where you’re coming from — it’s a valid question to his statement and it bugs me that no one else has seemed to understand this question — or, even in good faith help work it out.

I think most of these other replies have taken up the “wrong” idea of feminism to begin with, a lot of these straw-man arguments (& hasty generalizations towards the bottom) aren’t fair or productive in answering your question. As I understand it, the original comment was making the point that feminism believes in equality, and it’s precisely “feminism” keeping women from being sent to war. They feel that feminism is sending the men to die and women to flee, yet no “feminists” flood the streets in protest. This leads him to feel upset and that “they’ll forget feminism” in an attempt to avoid going to war.

It’s not a whole lot but it’s the best I’ve got on understanding it. I’m bummed that good faith questions get harpooned by likely thoughtless downvotes. I’ve had it happen when I ask questions in other feminist subs and I hate that this sub gets a bad rep for this very issue.

[–]pumpkinpeopleunite 2 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I appreciate your reply, because it's actually in good faith. It's refreshing to talk to someone willing to discuss things genuinely.

I would like you to elaborate, if you can, on this part:

it’s precisely “feminism” keeping women from being sent to war. They feel that feminism is sending the men to die and women to flee, yet no “feminists” flood the streets in protest.

I understand you are not putting this forth as your opinion, but merely trying to explain where the other commenter may be coming from. But, do you have any idea why people (and there are many on this sub, I've already had similar conversations yet no one has explained, I'm hoping you can) believe that feminism is "sending men to die", when it's pretty obvious that male only military drafts are a holdover from a time before feminism, and it's mostly traditional conservatives who are keeping it in place?

[–]mindset_grindset 1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

their actions ?

they fled the country while men were forced to stay under penalty of death due to the draft

if they were really feminists who demand equality they would have stayed and fought and demanded they be drafted too

but they didn't

hence- they already forgot about feminism

and if they're actually drafted (after all the hard works already been done and not actually drafted just mobilized) then based off their actions of FLEEING then instead of saying "sir yes sir, feminists believe in equality" , they'll not mention feminism or equality at all and just complain or refuse to re-enter the country

or more likely they'll come up with some bullshit excuse like they always have to admit that they only believe in equality when it benefits them but not when it requires sacrifice- but they'll dress it up to try to make it sound better of course

there's nothing confusing about what he said, you're just using trash logic to try to poke imaginary holes in solid logic

[–]pumpkinpeopleunite -2 points-1 points0 points 4 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

Funny that you accuse me of using trash logic when you've just gone and made up imaginary stories in your head.

they fled the country while men were forced to stay under penalty of death due to the draft

Who's they in this sentence? I think you mean women, not feminists, because there's no way you could know how many of the women who left are feminists. Also, you don't know how many of the women who left, most of whom left with children, were urged by their husbands to leave and take the children somewhere safe. You are trying to demonise a bunch of women who probably did the best thing they could for their family based on the circumstances. Why are you trying to demonise them?

You, just like others who have replied to me, have failed to demonstrate any evidence for the belief that feminist women will just up and abandon feminism as soon as things get difficult (and definitely no evidence that MRA's wouldn't just as easily abandon men's rights when things get difficult). Do you just hate women or something?

[–]mindset_grindset 2 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

it's not funny at all, it's sad that you use trash logic.

I've made nothing up, it's empirical fact that women fled Ukraine en masse and men were forced to stay

what are you trying to "gotcha" by saying that's sexist and I'm critisizing ALL women not just feminists ?

you're damn right the draft is sexist.

but I'm not critisizing all Ukrainian women, I'm critisizing the Ukrainian government that claims to be feminist but only drafted men and the women who claim to be feminist but then were nowhere to be seen protesting that women equally be drafted or even that men shouldn't be drafted.

that logic is perfectly sound no matter how furious it makes you that feminists are hypocritical cowards.

you're the one literally making up stories in your head, which means you're projecting, which means i already know you're a feminist without even checking your post history bc that trash logic is your bread and butter : "well but maybe , perhaps, i wonder if, do you think that the husband's TOLD their wives to leave with maybe children that they maybe had , so they wasn't the baddies, they was just following orders ?🥺🥺🥺👉👈"

that's the asinine stories you're making up to try to justify that feminists only want equality when it benefits them . IF your crazy story was what happened :

a. you have no idea if most women who left were mothers. you just fucking made that up.

b. even if most were mothers, you're admitting that some weren't and STILL left but saying nothing negative about those with no excuse. any comments ? i bet you've got an excuse for them too.

c. even if most were mothers, that's all the more reason for them to protest for their son's and husband's to be forced into a war like America did in Vietnam. drafts aren't necessary, if you've got a cause worth fighting for citizens volunteer. but these Ukrainian feminists were nowhere to be seen to protest that. shameful.

d. even if most were mothers- feminism argues equality- the women could have gone to war and the husband's stayed - if they want equality where were the feminists protesting to draft women bc men have fought all the other wars in history ? where's their radical change now?

e. even if most were mothers- if feminists really wanted equality why didn't they protest for families to CHOSE which parent they would send for the draft ? military drafts of the past let families choose weather to send the son or father so long as they got someone.

so you're damn right in demonizing feminists for being quiet on this one. they want men to fight and die for them to keep their country and then come back to it and demand equality in it without the same responsibility to keep it safe. this is literally the primary reason men have always hated feminism.

men have always had it the hardest, so your flipping it around metaphor has yet to be tested. when feminism builds a matriarchal utopia and men get to stay home being house husband's doing the easy work of turning on Netflix for the kids and then sending them off to school while we get our nails done and go shopping for a few hundred thousand years- while women fight the wars- then let's come back and see if when men are called back on to fight if they abandon men's rights.

I've failed nothing. you've failed to be convinced by sound logic.

[–]pumpkinpeopleunite -1 points0 points1 point 4 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

This post is way too long and full of hyperbole for me to bother going through it all and replying on every point.

I will just address one point. You seem to be under the impression that I'm defending the draft for men only, that I'm trying to say that it's good for men to be forced to stay and fight while women leave. I would ask you to go back and read the thread from the beginning, you'll see that I never defended that practice. I personally live in a country that doesn't have a draft for anyone and I'm happy about that. But if we were to be under threat of war, and decided that we need a draft, I would fully support it being for everyone and not only one gender. I believe most people here would, nobody would think in this day and age that if you're going to newly introduce a military draft, you would do so for men only. Your issue is in fact with patriarchy, not feminism. The countries that have drafts for men only have them as a holdover from previous times when it made sense for people that it was men only, we don't believe that nowadays, thanks to feminism.

[–]PactScharp 4 points5 points6 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

"The countries that have drafts for men only have them as a holdover from previous times when it made sense for people that it was men only, we don't believe that nowadays, thanks to feminism."

Except feminists were the ones who spearheaded the white feather campaign, which shamed men into enlisting by branding them as cowards, so they could be sent over to a war they wanted nothing to do with & be blown to shreds or mutilated for life if they were "lucky". Are you going to take responsibility for that too, as a feminist?

How about the fact that progressive women are THE MOST likely to be pro-drafting of exclusive men? Is that also thanks to feminism?

Your fake narrative that feminism have campaigned for men's rights throughout the decade & were completely against the draft is nothing short of pathetic. This never happened. Feminists were far more concerned with their own petty "suffrage" during the exact time when this was the average male experience: https://youtu.be/SS1dO0JC2EE

Such privilege these toxic men had... What did feminists do to help these men from blatant institutional discrimination? Ah right, they made sure even more "coward" men were sent over.

Btw, I could be wrong, but I don't think there's any country on Earth that "doesn't" have a draft. At best, some countries have their drafting programs "put on hold". Meaning they haven't been written out of the constitution. And trust me, if ever your country is under attack, it wouldn't take very long before politicians re-open these programs & draft young men.

[–]PactScharp 4 points5 points6 points 4 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]mindset_grindset 1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

i never use emojis but that trash genuinely made me laugh

feminists argue that nobody should be drafted - but when men are drafted- they don't protest bc in reality they want the men to fight for them the same as always

4 countries out of TWO HUNDRED countries worldwide draft women and even most of that's limited to non combat roles

"i believe most people hedge would support a draft for everyone not only one gender"

you're wrong according to your own logic:

you live in a feminist country- therefore you believe most people would support an equal draft

but Ukraine IS a feminist country - and they did not support an equal draft

most feminist countries do not

therefore there's literally hundreds of evidences that prove you wrong that most don't support women in the draft

and feminists fight AGAINST it, not for it

in fact- the first feminists shamed men for avoiding the draft although they refused to go themselves

I've proven you wrong on every point with evidence

all you've provided are your feelings and provably false facts

[–]pumpkinpeopleunite -2 points-1 points0 points 4 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

4 countries out of TWO HUNDRED countries worldwide draft women and even most of that's limited to non combat roles

Sure, but why do the other countries have male only drafts? It's not because of feminism. I'm really sick of seeing feminism blamed on this sub for everything we don't like. Again, male only military drafts existed before feminism existed

you live in a feminist country- therefore you believe most people would support an equal draft

but Ukraine IS a feminist country - and they did not support an equal draft

IS Ukraine a feminist country? Can you show any proof of that? Not saying you're wrong, just most Eastern European countries wouldn't be considered feminist, if you can show me proof I'd appreciate it

most feminist countries do not

I only know that my country doesn't have a draft, so there's no inequality here. Maybe other countries should follow us..

and feminists fight AGAINST it, not for it

Got evidence of feminists fighting AGAINST it?

in fact- the first feminists shamed men for avoiding the draft although they refused to go themselves

You're right that they shamed men, and that is a major embarrassment for the feminist movement as far as I'm concerned

I've proven you wrong on every point with evidence

all you've provided are your feelings and provably false facts

You haven't really provided anything in the way of evidence, but I hope you will. I haven't provided any "provably false facts", I've just given my opinions. Looking forward to your evidence!

[–]mindset_grindset 3 points4 points5 points 4 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

that's the first fact you've mentioned - male drafts don't exist bc of feminism

however you're using that fact for an incorrect assumption and conclusion - nobody blamed feminists for the draft existing. they blame feminists for suddenly declaring they want equal rights to men- without equally joining that draft.

and if they don't want to join it bc "nobody should be in the draft" - then if they want men's respect- they damn well better show they mean that by being the loudest anti-draft voices out there.

otherwise it just looks like what it really is- they want all the privilege with none of the responsibility. literally joining the draft would have made feminists men's allies if they had started off that way. fighting together is the main way different races came to accept each other as equals.

but feminists know they already have privilege not having to fight, so of course they're not going to actually advocate for that. in the countries where women are drafted feminists fought against it tooth and nail.

i could but i won't bc you don't argue in good faith. even when i prove you wrong you don't admit it and discuss further, you just skip over it change the subject. I'm commenting more for other readers than for you specifically, it's good for people to see how dumb feminists arguments are and how bad you argue. it's common knowledge that Ukraine is feminist - YOU- provide proof disproving that.

lmao, what country do you live in that has zero inequality ? can you provide proof of that ? i bet money that your country is just like the U.S and has an inactive draft but has a "selective service" , for all men for the moment the draft is restarted.

i know I'm right bc i read history objectively. it's not a "major embarrassment" it was some of their first organized moves. feminism itself was born of white women being jealous that slaves could vote and promised to SUPPORT white supremacy to contest them if given the same rights. feminism started out as bigotry and has remained bigotry. arguing that these were just momentary embarrassments is like arguing that the holocaust was just a few bad apples from the overall good nazi party . /s in case it's not obvious.

yes, there is plenty of evidence that feminists fight against drafting women, you're completely daft and wilfully ignorant. again- YOU- are making the wild claim, so YOU provide proof that feminists fight to be drafted equally. you know that's bullshit.

as i said, the moment you start arguing in good faith I'd be happy to take out time to provide sources. yes you have given about a dozen false facts that my comments enumerated and you conveniently skipped over. anyone reading knows the truth. pathetic attempts to twist like all feminists

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Title	Mobilization of women in Ukraine
Author	Rol9x
Upvotes	131
Comments	89
Date	June 11, 2022 7:07 AM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/v9s1s4/mobilization_of_women_in_ukraine/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/mobilization-of-women-in-ukraine.1116442 https://theredarchive.com/post/1116442

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