Ludwigs view on male victims gives me the ick

Gnome_Child_Deluxe · 2023-02-05T23:22:55+00:00

Yeah it's dumb, if you give him a charitable interpretation I don't think he means it like that, but it often feels like it's almost impossible to get progressive people to talk about women's issues without having them turn it into a rant about how easy men have it.

Although I also wouldn't give a shit about my dick and balls being on the internet, it's clear plenty of guys do because there wouldn't be a market for blackmailing men with their own nudes if none of them cared. Describing that scenario as "just a funny thing" is the kind of "so woke you're actually just a tradcon again" backwards progressivism that I've grown really tired of.

2023-02-06T01:53:13+00:00

Yep, society has continuously dehumanized males for years, admittedly predicated by mostly patriarchal standards, however, denying misandstristic values and matriarchal standards at this point would simply be advocacy against reality, at least if we're speaking in regards to western societal standards

Maldevinine · 2023-02-06T06:10:23+00:00

A counter-argument to his line that it doesn't affect men as much:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-02-06/australian-boys-calling-national-helpline-sextortion-increasing/101929164

Interesting_Doubt_17 · 2023-02-07T10:28:23+00:00

He even relates his own very specific experience of this happening to him (an incredibility privileged person) as an argument of how when it happens to men its just kind of funny and no big deal.

Survivorship bias at its finest

2023-02-06T07:25:24+00:00

The medium post linked below is even sadder. Lines and lines of gross generalization of men being nothing but predators and women being victims "conditioned from childhood to deal with men".

Sheesh.

Far-Reputation7119 · 2023-02-06T22:10:09+00:00

Men experience body dysmorphia too. Look how many men are going to other countries to get penis enlargement and penis fillers to get thicker, it’s sad. Some men are restoring their foreskin, since they were circumcised as infants against their will, while many American men are getting circumcised as adults, just to please judgmental women.

CompetitiveOwl2 · 2023-02-07T16:42:49+00:00

The way this is discussed is quite interesting. If you suggest it's just kind of funny and weird and something to be laughed off for men and something painful and damaging for women it homogenises both groups and treats these as inherently true. Most people who take a generally feminist stance are also at least somewhat on the progressive left and feminism, as I understand, is opposed to that kind of reductive and essentialist thinking.

If, however, these behaviours and responses aren't inherent then surely women could also learn to just see it as a kind of weird but funny thing? No? Because the fact that these women are distressed by it is valid? But what if I could find a woman who didn't mind, just like Ludwig doesn't mind?

Sarah Silverman was ok with Louis CK masturbating in front of her, does that mean all the other women who had more conflicting feelings about it or felt downright victimised don't matter?

I think there are some moral stances that you have to treat like laws. The single least controversial form of equality is, in my opinion, equality under the law. I think, as an extension of that, we must treat people equally in our moral and ethical systems. You see it isn't about what I feel, it isn't about what you feel and it isn't about what Ludwig feels. It isn't about opinions on individual matters or cases. It is about having consistent principles even when it is uncomfortable for you or even seems unnecessary. If making deepfake pornography is wrong it is wrong whoever the victim is. It is equally wrong and deserves equal condemnation. I believe it helps everyone.

At an absolute minimum treating it as equally serious will prevent people from engaging in whataboutism. Whataboutism is often criticised but sometimes it's valid. You will, and I feel very comfortable in guaranteeing this, absolutely see people saying "What about all the male deepfakes you ignored? If it's such a problem why aren't you tackling all of it?" and no answer you can give will be heard as anything other than "we care less about men" by the people asking the questions. How much momentum is going to be lost? How much harder is the fight going to be? All because you couldn't be bothered to treat everyone like they had a legitimate grievance.

Enzi42 · 2023-02-06T07:46:32+00:00

I made an edit to this post now that I know more about this situation (I don't really follow streamer drama so I didn't have the full picture). I still think the larger body of my post is helpful, but the edit is also useful.

So, I feel like I'm repeating a copypasta this point since I have said this so many times, but I feel that it is a very important message for anyone who is engaged in male advocacy (male or female) to understand, and this streamer's reaction just confirms it all the more:

Something that needs to be understood is just how antagonistic and devastating other men are to the goal of getting help for men who are victimized and suffering problems, whether that is revenge porn, sexual assault, domestic violence, etc.

Part of it comes from the gender roles of being the stoic protector, the living shield who takes any and all trials and tribulations on the chin and just keeps moving forward. It's an attitude that lingers in most, if not all, men to some degree; that we will set ourselves (and other men) on fire to keep women warm. It has always been damaging to us but it is even more so in the modern era since the "equivalent exchange" of the traditional women's role is absent, leading to such men being taken for granted or even simply used for all they are worth.

Other men disregard men's issues out of a misguided sense of guilt or atonement; they see us as the perpetrators of evil in the world and so our problems are ours to bear as punishment. In their eyes even if individuals aren't directly responsible, their suffering is still deserved as some sort of blood sacrifice for the evils of the group's past.

I don't know which of those particular ideas, if any, this Ludwig guy subscribes to. It could be all of them or it could be none of them. It could simply be that he is trying to pander to a female audience who will enjoy a man telling them how uniquely vulnerable they are while downplaying his own gender's struggle---having seen certain male content creators do this and the reactions to it, I can tell you that it is something that a portion of female viewers seem to genuinely enjoy.

Ultimately his reasons really don't matter to me and I'm using this as more of a lesson than a commentary on the individual. This is the sort of reaction you will encounter, in real life or online, when trying to advocate for men's issues even when trying to discuss it among other men, who one would think had a vested interest in seeing our problems addressed and given consideration.

EDIT: Upon actually looking at the video I have a little more context for what is going on here, and I can add another factor that causes men to turn on each other. I'm not going to "diagnose" this streamer, and I still stand by using this incident as a lesson rather than a commentary on an individual case, but I think the context is helpful.

From what I have learned, one of the people victimized by this scandal was his girlfriend? That adds a whole new dimension to his reaction. It does not excuse dismissing male victims in the slightest but lets me see another aspect of anti male attitudes that I have personal experience with:

Men with girlfriends and daughters tend to be far more anti male and dismissive of male problems than men who do not, in my experience. They see the gendered struggles of the women and girls in their lives and magnify them so that they overshadow their own, and those of other men.

One of the few conversations about gender issues I had with a man I deeply respect (and whose beliefs are an extremely interesting hybrid of progressive and traditional gender roles), resulted in him telling me that the moment I gained a wife or girlfriend I would "stop caring about these men's issues".

I think the same thing happens to a lot of men---hell, I know it happens since I have read posts from men talking about how they stopped caring about these things when they got with their girlfriends or wives.

This isn't a slight against women (unless they personally encourage their partner to disregard men's problems, in which case shame on them). It's again an issue with men being conditioned to set ourselves on fire to keep others warm and live into a self sacrificing arrangement that no longer has any rewards.

Professional-You2968 · 2023-02-06T11:42:09+00:00

Whoever has these double standards doesn't have my respect.

pacsatonifil · 2023-02-07T01:31:12+00:00

It doesn’t need to be as bad for any victim to have my sympathy. It can always be worse. That doesn’t make the victims any better off. It’s shitty of him to minimize their pain

National-Ostrich-608 · 2023-02-07T21:17:25+00:00

Sick. We shouldn't base our opinions on sensitive topics like this on our own personal experience. I'd personally love it if a hot woman pissed on me, but not everyone enjoys that.

I'd personally would be disturbed by a nude photo leak, but as far as deep fake porn is concerned, just make me look good. Men still have the right to feel however they feel they should when these things happen to them.

sabazurc · 2023-02-06T00:24:53+00:00

I knew he was the type when he attacked the "think before you sleep" YT channel, calling them misogynist. Good channel btw and the channel made a great response.

Even while I am the type who IMO would be more ok if it was women forcing me compared to women being forced by men...I still understand that I am not everybody and I do not represent every man, for many men it would be a horrible experience and that should not be minimized. Hell, many women have actual fantasies about rape, should we act like it's no big deal now? Fuk him.

Far-Reputation7119 · 2023-02-06T22:06:28+00:00

Yeah, no. I do not want random women touching up on me, it makes me feel dirty and used.

AIMLESS_ASSASSIAN · 2023-02-07T02:47:33+00:00

People like this fool Ludwig do it for clout and good social media points. You got to remember his gf does only fans so he has to push vids like this.

Net_Flux3 · 2023-02-06T19:36:06+00:00

He sounds like a pathetic doormat who is trying to defend his creep of a girlfriend/sister who leaked her ex boyfriend's nudes.

omegaphallic · 2023-02-06T18:21:54+00:00

Deep fake videos should be labelled as such so no confusion or blackmail can occur.

ChimpPimp20 · 2023-02-09T08:38:05+00:00

I’ve thought about this too and was gonna post my thoughts here but neglected too because I thought I was just being a little bitch.

Penguinz0 said something similar about an actual account of him being deepfaked on the internet and just said it was funny.

devasiaachayan · 2023-02-19T19:10:51+00:00

Unpopular take but I don't have problem with deepfake porn. I am completely aware of the problem it causes but I'd rather put blame of it onto our traditionalist and feminist society. In my country it's apparently a big shame to be seen nude, no mature society will take edited nudes seriously enough. Any mature society would just see this stuff and not give a fuck about it. I have seen cases of revenge porn and most of the time, things wouldn't be so bad if people were just mature about it and not react like kids seeing someone naked for the first time. This weapon of harm is created by society itself, if society stopped giving a fuck revenge porn wouldn't even be a method to harm someone

ApplePudding1972 · 2024-05-08T07:15:16+00:00

This post is old, but it is still relevant especially with the 'man vs bear' discourse spreading this form of feminism across the internet. A male feminist called 'Vaush' (who has been linked on this sub before as one of the rare left wing Youtubers who understands men's issues) who has made it very clear he has this same sort of 'men are creepier than women' bias that Ludwig also holds. Almost all male feminists have this bias, where they just feel this need to constantly downplay men's issue when they talk about women's issues. If they didn't have this bias they likely wouldn't be feminists any more.

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