How to distinguish pathologization of male sexual desire from victim-blaming in the topic of clothing moderation?

Oncefa2 · 2023-03-03T14:34:09+00:00

I don't necessarily agree with your premise, but I can play devil's advocate for you.

One thing that comes to mind is you could compare this to clothing requirements in public, and to indecent exposure.

Is it ok to force people to wear something overtop their underwear? Why is that not "patriarchal control", but having standards about (say) cleavage is?

Why does seeing someone naked in public upset us? Why does seeing someone in just their underwear upset us? Why does seeing a guy's bulge upset us? And where do we draw the line? At what point is it not that person's fault that they have above average sized breasts, or maybe want to feel sexy on occasion?

hotpotato138 · 2023-03-03T19:46:39+00:00

Men should only be shamed if they sexually assault, not for looking. I objectify all women I'm attracted to, in my mind. I don't think it's immoral.

I think women would get attention even if they wear conservative clothes.

Dismal-Cabinet5321 · 2023-03-04T00:20:48+00:00

I don't have an issue with them wearing revealing clothing. You do you.

But you don't have the right to get mad at other people for having eyes.

devasiaachayan · 2023-03-03T17:56:29+00:00

I don't care if women roam around naked. The only problem I have with is if they deny that they're not doing it for male attention

Confrontational_bear · 2023-03-03T22:07:35+00:00

The argument of the higher male sex drive played out by feminists suggests men’s drive is so intense that it won’t matter what a woman ultimately chooses to wear. A man would hit on a catholic sister when he feels fuzzy.

philinspirit · 2023-03-04T07:48:05+00:00

I start from the observation that women have sexual power. Most women put huge time and effort into maximizing their "hotness" using clothing, makeup, hair styles, jewelry, behavior and so forth, because it gives them power. They hardly ever do it because they want sexual interaction; they do it to manipulate male sexuality so that men are more likely to want to please them. True, women have sexual power over men regardless of whether they are "provocative" in appearance; but great effort is invested in enhancing this effect.

"Hotness" has a huge influence on the behavior of essentially all men who interact with a woman, whether the men realize it or not. Consequently, it comes into play in virtually every social group and social interaction. Check it out: in any social group or community, the women who have the highest social status, strongly tend to be "good" looking compared to women who have lower social status. It would be hard to find a realm of human endeavor where "hotness" doesn't give an edge to the women who express it. It's female privilege -- a huge source of unearned, and largely unacknowledged, power and influence.

"Hotness" is double-edged, of course. It tends to attract unwanted attention as well as wanted attention. It is self-objectifying, tending to present women as sexual objects. But apparently enough, most women find it worthwhile to "look their best," meaning their hottest, for the power and status it gives them. Deciding what is "contextually appropriate" is mainly a cost-benefit calculation.

So what should women do about the "hotness" privilege that is bestowed on them? There are those who refuse to do anything to enhance their personal hotness, preferring not to invite objectification, but those are few in number. The rest should acknowledge the "hotness" privilege and the power and status it gives them. They should also acknowledge that the enhancement of "hotness" invites objectification and may increase the risk of sexual victimization; risks that are the calculated cost of increased power and privilege. (This does not, of course, justify sexual assault or harassment in any way -- by analogy, my use of a credit card clearly increases my risk of fraudulent charges, a risk that I accept in order to obtain the convenience of using the card; but that doesn't justify the fraud or suggest that I have consented to it.)

And what should men do about the "hotness" privilege? In my opinion, we should empower ourselves by increasing our awareness of how "hotness" influences our behavior -- we can learn to avoid being manipulated. We should support women who eschew "hotness," by noticing and appreciating their substantive qualities and enhancing their status in our communities -- they are our allies. We should educate adolescents about "hotness" and its social function and effects with a candor that empowers both boys and girls. And obviously, we should reject any suggestion that "hotness" constitutes consent to sexual assault or harassment.

I am editing this comment on 3/5 to add a link to an article posted in r/science that I believe supports what I am saying. Here's the link: https://www.psypost.org/2023/03/attractive-women-wield-more-power-in-their-households-study-finds-68723

Distinct_Project8025 · 2023-03-06T02:26:20+00:00

I used to train at a small gym. It was nice going there. This particular gym was alright at a stage. there were not pictures of women in revealing active wear to distract me from my training. It's a me problem, I know.

But that space started to go down hill, when certain women, completely obsessed with their genitals, would come to the gym wearing active wear that would get a raised eyebrow even on OnlyFans.

The constant triggering of sexual response was enough to drive me insane and quit the gym. This constant flurry of excitement actually made me wonder if life would be better if I just castrate myself so as to feel 0 sex drive ever again. It's probably not like this for most.

But doing a bench press, and her god damn ass gets in my view and it ruins my set. Can't you wear track pants, or some shorts, or something that doesn't hug your vag and ass so tightly it looks like you're wearing a spandex G?

Ofcourse not. Their confidence is at our expense. And when they decide they want to act on all the attention, they do, and it comes easily to them. Where-as we have to go through all kinds of obstacles just to get a hello.

CoffeeWorldly9915 · 2023-03-05T18:10:05+00:00

It's mostly about the pattern recognition for conventional attractiveness that can't be just turned off + making an argument from plausible deniability ("I wasn't wearing it to attract attention...") usually by creating a nonexistent blame then shifting it ("...they were sexually objectifying me"). A man that goes from blank statenof mind to staring needs probably 2-3 seconds of contemplation to realize he's staring.

Knowing the effect they can elicit and knowing that they can deny they were trying to elicit it is very useful when you want to exploit victimhood.

Note: I'm referring to average men that percieve, but do not otherwise act upon it.

gigachadkawasaki · 2023-03-03T15:59:07+00:00

Tbh the whole revealing clothing argument is probably an area where I sort of agree with the feminists on. From what I have observed as a man, what a woman is wearing has little relevance at best to how much negative male attention women receive.

From what I've personally observed as a passerby, and from men I have had the misfortune of knowing (to be clear I don't condone it nor do I keep them as friends), I can guarantee you that the type of men who catcall and sexually assault women don't give a fuck what she's wearing. I've seen women in crop tops/miniskirts, unflattering sweats, and everything in between get harassed. I wouldn't put it past some of these degenerates pull insane mental gymnastics to argue that a woman's baggy sweatpants showed off her ass too much.

In a contrasting scenario, say a group of young women go out to a bar, have a few drinks and decide it would be fun to jump on top of a table and start twerking. While that isn't an invitation for strange men to grab their asses or jump up and start grinding on them without permission, it is going to invite attention (both male and female), again regardless of what they're wearing. If they were to complain about men simply staring at them then, in my opinion, they don't have a leg to stand on, since they're doing something that is known to be very sexually provocative and attention grabbing in a public place.

International_Crew89 · 2023-03-04T02:22:30+00:00

As a lifelong nudist/naturist, I take the view that enforcing anyone to wear clothing is just plain wrong. IMHO, clothes serve no physical purpose beyond protection from the elements (when that's even applicable) and furthermore, clothing serves a (hidden and socially negative) function to heighten sexualization of our bodies.

Zealousideal-Oven-93 · 2023-03-03T16:35:44+00:00

Portraying men as weak willed creatures can't control themselves at the presence of an attractive woman only takes away men's agency and harms men's cause in the long run. It is sad that men themselves propagate this stereotype.

VisibleConcentrate77 · 2023-03-03T19:23:20+00:00

I don't have any answers but you are correct men biologically programed to look for such signals. We see it in a the animal kingdom (and Vic versa with females to men). Now this has become very politically incorrect to say. Of course this is by no means meant to exempt men from acting responsible but women should be aware and combine this with drinking, spaces of more liberty of interaction and your going to get behavior some aren't going to find comfortable. I think mutual honesty would help, recognizing that clubs, bars, parties are (or at least can be) different social spaces and image is consequential.

But lets not confuse this with men who habitually sexualize woman and see or want to see provocativeness everywhere. These individuals shouldn't be tolerated and badly need sensitivity training and a whole paradigm shift of their thinking.

sambiak · 2023-03-04T09:14:26+00:00

However, any attempts to encourage the moderation of revealing clothing is shot down as patriarchal control, victim blaming, or being a sexual assault apologist.

Well yes ? I mean, you are literally wanting to control what people wear. When I go to nude beaches, I don't see any sexual assault.

Attraction is largely context dependent. People in the Muslim countries find hair super sexualized, what we find sexual in clothing and appearance is partially dependent on culture.

Also, what's the end goal here ? Let's say that you get everybody to wear the Burka. Do you think there is no catcalling in Morocco ? It's worse than France, and it's common here.

You won't stop people from being attracted to other people, but you can change how they express their attraction. People being attracted to each over and having sexual desires is a good thing, sexual harassment is not. You can prevent the sexual harassment, not the attraction.

ProfessionalPut6507 · 2023-03-08T07:33:36+00:00

This is an interesting question, because if you stroll into Caracas with a Rolex and gold chains, nobody will say it is not your job to make sure what others think/do. They will say you are a bloody idiot, and if you get shot (you will), it is your fault.

Now, this is a very extreme example, but advising caution about something else is not controversial -only about clothing and certain set behavior.

Not sure why this is; it helps women to understand how to protect themselves. This whole accusation of victim-blaming seem to be geared to generate more victims that can be used as examples of how evil men are preying on women, not to free women as they claim. This is a tinfoil hat theory, but they can't be so stupid to seriously think that the onus must be on the predator not to prey on women... it is unrealistic. Why do these people have locks on their doors, then?

IWantToJustTalk · 2023-03-09T11:06:43+00:00

Victim blaming is different from risk management. So if I leave my door unlocked and I get robbed it's not my fault but you can see how my actions can have an impact on the outcome. it can be argued that people should take steps to limit their risk when they can and, although I disagree, wearing less revealing clothes could help. if we are talking just about ogling then I think it's fine to make an argument like this. Wearing revealing clothing is like wearing a clown costume outside. You shouldn't get beaten up for it but you will attract a lot off attention. If you don't want that attention don't wear the clown costume.

Title	How to distinguish pathologization of male sexual desire from victim-blaming in the topic of clothing moderation?
Author	lolthankstinder
Upvotes	23
Comments	38
Date	March 2, 2023 10:25 PM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/11gh0nv/how_to_distinguish_pathologization_of_male_sexual/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/how-to-distinguish-pathologization-of-male-sexual.1154698 https://theredarchive.com/post/1154698

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