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No, child support can’t be a choice

roharareddit

November 20, 2013

33 upvotes

/r/MensRights

http://www.salon.com/2013/11/07/no_child_support_cant_be_a_choice/

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Post Information

Title	No, child support can’t be a choice
Author	roharareddit
Upvotes	33
Comments	75
Date	November 20, 2013 10:04 PM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1r3as1/no_child_support_cant_be_a_choice/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/no-child-support-cant-be-a-choice.1158269 https://theredarchive.com/post/1158269

Comments

[+][deleted] 12 years ago (69 children) | Copy Link

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[+][deleted] 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Bartab 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]maako1328 6 points7 points8 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]Zeddikus 4 points5 points6 points 12 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

I think the way you get around it, is make a system where the man is automatically enrolled as Legal Parental Surrender, unless the couple is married or there is a contracted agreement between the two people. Make the fee $100, and all of that goes into a fund that would then support women who decided to keep it themselves.

What needs to happen is the social norms need to be changed where every child is planned. This idea of a social norm that says only 1 partner in the situation has voting power over the other in a major life decision is what has landed us with so many single moms with dads nowhere to be found. This is bad for society and worse for the children involved.

Also, for those women who do decide to go-it alone, the government help would be minimal. $150 in cash, $150 in food stamp on only selected, healthy foods per month.

The attitude that unplanned pregnancies are pregnancies that should be carried forward, needs to change. There is a reason you were not planning that child, carrying the pregnancy forward is only piling more mistakes onto whatever mistake led to the pregnancy in the 1st place.

With plan b, etc... there is just no excuse but complete ineptitude (other than the rare 1% when the pill or a condom breaks) on these unplanned pregnancies.

[–]brerrabbitt 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]p_iynx 3 points4 points5 points 12 years ago* (59 children) | Copy Link

My mother only asked for a small amount from my father. $300 a month that he often didn't pay. She was working two jobs to pay for her and I while going to community college for her AA. She asked for a small amount because she wanted me more than she wanted money, and really just needed a small amount to help feed and clothe me. Kids are fucking expensive.

Edit: Might be slightly important to note that I also require a lot of medical care, and see doctors more than 6 times a month. This month I'm already up to 7 visits! I also take 6-8 medications a day, three of which cost more than $100 each with insurance. When I was a kid I had a cloth box roughly the size of a fishing kit that was filled with my pills and medications. My med bills alone cost more than the $300. But my wonderful momma scrimped and saved and was able to save part of the check every month to put in a college fund. At the end it wasn't much, but it helped with my first year of college. :)

Also, my father regularly smoked around me, which highly exacerbated my health conditions. It was awful. I would come home with an upper respiratory infection after every visit. I remember having colds that literally lasted years. Coughs that lasted months after the cold finally went away...it was bad.

[–]maako1328 12 points13 points14 points 12 years ago (39 children) | Copy Link

[+][deleted] 12 years ago* (38 children) | Copy Link

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[–]maako1328 9 points10 points11 points 12 years ago (28 children) | Copy Link

No, abortion is a choice, if she does not want to terminate her pregnancy, that is her decision. I see no reason for the male to demure to the female's choice. Both have agency, both have responsibilities, but only if they are done by choice. Forced parenthood of anyone is wrong.

The man should have a small window early in the pregnancy to make his choice. That would give the woman plenty of time to elect to terminate or give up for adoption if she chooses to. Anything else is unacceptable. If you don't have the resources to parent, terminate or give up for adoption. Taking a page from the anti-abortion movement to "keep your legs closed (or thing in your pants)", if you don't want a kid is a poor excuse for forced fatherhood.

If you really care about taking care of children, we need to be working for solutions to keep people from having children who are not ready. You don't do that by subsidizing poor life choices and you don't do that by forcing parenthood.

[–]p_iynx -2 points-1 points0 points 12 years ago (27 children) | Copy Link

I didn't say anything about not having sex, I said that you should take responsibility and wear a condom if you don't want a child. Don't be with a partner who is anti-abortion. Discuss seriously how you would deal with a child if an accidental pregnancy occurs. My boyfriend and I have!

Those are your choices that you made. Your responsibility.

Additionally, you are completely ignoring and minimizing the psychological effect that aborting a child has on a woman. My mom got pregnant by my stepfather after a failed (crap, I can't remember the word...he got snipped) and they made the decision to abort the child. My mom is still feeling the psychological effects of that choice. Ultimately, it's her decision, which puts the majority of the responsibility for that decision on the mother. Even if it's mutual between the couple, the mother is still more responsible because it is her choice. I guess it's the price we pay, but it's not something we asked for. That's not fair either, but it's how it is.

Adoption is an option, and some times the placements go well. But a ridiculous amount of children are left shuffling around the system. Molestation, rape, abuse, neglect...thousands of children are out there in foster care without anyone to love them. It's a very bleak way to grow up.

If I had to pay an exorbitant amount of money to ensure that my child (wanted or not) will never go through that, I would in a heartbeat. I will anyway, because I will probably end up raising a child. I'll pay more in my life than most child support payments (there are notable exceptions for the super-rich and famous) to raise that child. But in the end it is not about me. It's about my baby, and doing what's right for him or her.

[–]Aroki5 points 12 years ago* [recovered] (7 children) | Copy Link

On a slightly different note, I'm curious as to where you stand on cases where the women engaged in unethical or illegal behavior to get pregnant. For example raping a man and becoming pregnant from it, or if they engage in oral sex and she impregnates herself with semen she obtained through non-PIV sex. Should the man have to pay for child support if the women needs it in this case? should she be allowed to keep the child? does he get a say in custody, if so how much?

Edit: Also wondering where you stand on cases where the man knowingly lies about using contraception or the women knowingly lies about using contraception and a pregnancy results.

Sorry for so many questions, but it's not often I come across a feminist who's willing to discuss things in a level headed and educated way on reddit.

[–]p_iynx 4 points5 points6 points 12 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

I believe that it would be sexual assault of some sort, TBH. At the very least it is theft and should be punished as such. The child should be removed from the mother's care because she is obviously unfit, and if the father is not interested in raising the child he should be allowed to go on his way. Anything else is just as horrible as forcing a woman to carry to term a baby that she conceived while being raped. She should be able to choose whether to keep it or not, and so should a man in this case. It was entirely out of his control.

In cases where someone lies about contraception, it's hard. It becomes he said, she said. If he can prove that she did in fact lie, and she is seeking money, he should be absolved of any responsibility.

In cases where he lies about barrier methods of contraception, I see that as a form of assault (same as if a woman said she was wearing a female condom and she wasn't) because at that point it's a matter of safety. She (or he) agreed to safe sex and the other party did things that s/he did not agree to. At that point, it is non-consensual.

[–]dungone 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Aroki1 points 12 years ago [recovered] (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]p_iynx 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]Aroki2 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]p_iynx2 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Aroki1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]maako1328 8 points9 points10 points 12 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

You are conflating two different things. You are preaching to the choir in talking about your future child. My daughter is 19, I have raised her alone with zero help (mom hasnt see her in years) since she was 8. She is in college now. She has been my world since the day she was born.

But we are talking about the law, not feelings. Equality is essential under the law. Forced fatherhood creates debtors prisons (otherwise illegal in this country- US). Women are more likely to default on child support obligations, but are rarely ever put in prison. Meanwhile we are just warehousing poor men, especially men of color. This is not helping society, or children. Equality under the law, in my view, would help women by treating them like adults, not children. They will have the privilege of parenthood and the corresponding responsibilities, but will have to rely on herself if she makes that choice. That alone would force some women to view the decision differently. The same would be of men who wanted their child, instead of letting them be adopted. The mom should not have to pay.

"Those are your choices that you made. Your responsibility."

If a woman has full agency in choosing to be a parent, that same right should be extended to a man. Your boyfriend can take all those precautions, but, in the end, it will be only your choice as to whether he becomes a dad or not. That is not fair or just.

[–]p_iynx -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

[–]TheGDBatman 3 points4 points5 points 12 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]p_iynx 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]SchalaZeal011 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]p_iynx1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]SchalaZeal011 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]p_iynx1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]maako1328 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]p_iynx -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]maako13281 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]Zeddikus 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]p_iynx 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago* (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]SchalaZeal01 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]p_iynx -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]SchalaZeal012 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]p_iynx1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

That's so horrible! I'm...well, not shocked, but really frustrated that that isn't more widely known. We really need to be dealing with that, starting with childhood. Teaching children healthy coping mechanisms and letting boys know it's okay to seek help and be vulnerable. After that, we need safe places for abused men and more aid for men who are struggling financially. There really are very few groups for men who need support.

I know this isn't the same, but I have a disease where the suicide rates are over 19% for women (men do not tend to get this disease, it's something like less than 10% but I'm sure the rates are just as high). No one ever talks about the disease, it carries a huge amount of stigma, some ignorant doctors STILL insist that it doesn't even exist. I've heard on awareness websites for Fibromyalgia that if everyone had it, half the population would be dead in a year. But most of us can't even get disability and end up living in poverty and pain until we give up and kill ourselves. It's really shitty to be in a situation where no one is sensitive to your plight.

I think that's why I wanted to come here and understand you guys. I'm sensitive to people who feel they aren't heard or cared about. I wanted to let you all know that I do care, and I'm sorry many of you have been wronged.

I was raped, and it made me scared of men for a long time. I'm getting over that, and this all helps.

[–]SchalaZeal012 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]theozoph 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

Unfortunately, not everyone sees abortion as an option. A woman who believes that she will go to hell if she kills her baby shouldn't be forced to make that decision if both parties didn't take precaution and she ended up pregnant.

She isn't "forced" to do anything. A man refusing to pay for a woman's choice isn't "forcing" the woman to make another. If she decides to not use abortion, she can still use adoption. If she decides to do neither, then she decides to become a single mother. You're asking that the financial responsibility of her decision fall on another person, who might have expressedly refused to! When will women finally be expected to take responsibility for their decisions?

And don't tell me having sex is equal to a decision to have a child, or I'll tell you to keep your knees crossed if you don't want to become a mother.

Women have the choice of using contraception, using abortion, or using adoption. A each stage of conception, society has been bending over backward to give women more choices. Now men ask for one more choice for themselves. To not become fathers if they don't want to, and you're saying: "No, fuck you, I'll decide if you become fathers or not."

That's not equality. That's privilege for women, and financial bondage for men.

Once you make a baby, it's no longer about you.

Then lets repeal Roe vs. Wade. But if women can opt out of "it's no longer about you", then men should have that option too.

Let "making a baby" mean a conscious decision from both parties, which will then bound them both with the force of the law. Let's re-institute paternal recognition to go along paternal surrender, and have men record which children they agree to support (marriage could be an implied agreement). That would be fair, reconcile men and women, and be beneficial to society.

Yes, some people fuck over their other parent, usually women fucking over men in this situation, but that doesn't take away from the fact that the child is who the courts have to think about.

Bullshit. No child has the right to live in affluence, or to know its parents. Otherwise, we would prevent poor people from having children, and would make it illegal for women to give up their children. We do neither.

The true purpose of child support is to let women have children they can't support, and bill another person for that choice. It has nothing to do with the rights or well-being of the child, and everything with giving women what they want.

I refuse to contribute to moving towards a society where more children go hungry because of dads who didn't wear a condom and decided they wanted to "opt out".

And I refuse to contribute to moving towards a society where more children live in single-parent families, which sabotages their future and prospects, because of mothers who made the selfish decision to conceive outside of a stable relationship.

When we remove that option for women, we'll see far less single mothers out there. Let us stop with the perverse incentives.

Peace.

[–]JakeDDrake 5 points6 points7 points 12 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

A woman who believes that she will go to hell if she kills her baby shouldn't be forced to make that decision if both parties didn't take precaution and she ended up pregnant.

No more than a man who, in a similar hypothetic situation, took the correct precautions (condoms and soon enough that new male contraceptive, maybe a vasectomy even, etc.) and stated beforehand that he didn't want a child, should be forced to raise one should she become pregnant because of her belief in hell, yes?

If men could forfeit their participation in conception, they would, but as it stands, there's currently nothing on the market that does that, whereas women have a multitude of options at their disposal. They get to choose whether or not they want to be a mother. Hell, that contraceptive I spoke of earlier arose only after overcoming persistent lobbying from groups like NOW, stating that a "Male Pill" will just make men more promiscuous (in a hilariously ironic repetition of history) and further increase the unwanted pregnancy rate, because they would "forget to take them, as men often do".

Source: someone whose girlfriend aborted their baby without telling him

[–]SilencingNarrative 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]p_iynx 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Peter_Principle_ 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Bartab 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]p_iynx 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago* (10 children) | Copy Link

I wanna say that I don't deny that men get screwed in custody battles the majority of the time. Thankfully that is changing.

I consider myself an egalitarian feminist, one of the feminists that realizes that while the situation we are in IS a result of patriarchy (which is NOT men's fault, not the men of today at least!) because the system works along the lines of traditional gender roles where man is money maker and woman is baby maker. In patriarchy, men support women because they are weaker and less capable, and because they birth and raise babies.

That is fucked up. Some of the best stay-at-home parents I know are dads. Some of the most loving parents I know are dads.

I have some differences of opinion with y'all here that I don't want to get into, but I support men having better treatment by society. I support everyone having better treatment by society. We are all buffeted around in this cold, hard world, and I think that if we learn to work together and be a little more accepting of each other we could make a real difference.

I came to this sub today because I've heard a lot about it. I see that while some users fit the "stereotype", there are some great people and there is great discussion happening.

Just please remember that the loudest majority of feminists don't feel the way that the ACTUAL majority of feminists do. Like fanatics of any flavor they are the loudest and most radical. (We see this in religion, politics, gender issues, everywhere!) I will do my best to remember the same about you MRAs as well. :)

Edit: Stop downvoting me because I'm a feminist. Jesus, fuck. I'm being as open-minded as possible here.

[+][deleted] 12 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

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[–]p_iynx -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago* (8 children) | Copy Link

Patriarchy was created by men.

I think that it was created by men (edit: I typed this rather hurriedly at work. I mean more that was created because men just did protective leader things and provided for the family. Women weren't even full citizens in many cultures. It's kind of impossible to argue that. However i DO NOT THINK that it was created in a malicious "let's be misogynists!" way. It just happened.) a LONG LONG LONG time ago, and we just kinda went with it because it worked. For centuries women were property and baby-makers, and it took ridiculous lengths to even get the right to own property in our own name or be allowed to live without a guardian. In this day and age, the social constructs are there but we are more enlightened. Women are not fragile creatures that need to be taken care of.

Patriarchy is perpetuated by men.

Patriarchy is perpetuated by everyone. Women who abuse the system to get child support or alimony, men that rape women, men and women who deny that rape of men happens, it's just something we all do because it's what our past experiences and the past experiences of our elders "taught" us. Is it wrong? Absolutely.

Patriarchy by nature values men over women.

In some ways, it does. In many ways, it harms them. I think that at this point the scale is equal on "number of harms" in my society. But that doesn't make it fair. Just because women have the upper hand in some areas doesn't mean that feminists should stop fighting for the things that aren't right. And just because men have traditionally held the "upper hand" that doesn't make it okay to ignore the issues they face today, and have faced always.

Patriarchy elevates men and subjugates women.

Patriarchy places certain expectations on both men and women that don't fit the way the world works now. If a woman doesn't want to be a stay at home mother, she should never face shame because "that's her real job now." Just as much as a man should never face shame for wanting to be a stay at home father because "he should be supporting the family". These traditional gender roles (where the man is the "leader" and "supporter" of the family) need to be gotten rid of. The way it "elevates" men is by expecting them to be leaders and "subjugates" women by expecting them to be supporters, and that's not okay or fair for either gender.

Patriarchy’s primary victims are women, and men are secondary victims if at all.

Everyone suffers under a patriarchy, unless you're happy to subscribe to traditional gender roles.

Edit: Don't ask for my opinion if you're just gonna downvote it, FFS. The sidebar says you welcome discussion...this doesn't seem too welcoming. I'm not downvoting any of you because I disagree with your views.

Note: if a word is in quotes, I don't agree with it entirely. I think these terms are too broad and generalized and a lot of them have negative connotations, but this was just supposed to be a quick answer.

[+][deleted] 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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[–]p_iynx 4 points5 points6 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]TheGDBatman 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]p_iynx 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

No, no, I don't think that at all. I don't think anyone sat down and said "Muahaha, let's oppress some wymen!" I just think it's a construct that was passed down all the way from our ancestor's ancestors. It's predominantly biological. But we're at a point in societal and cultural evolution that we can move past pure biology and allow people to just be...people.

Once again...I'm not a feminist who thinks that all men are evil dictators who want to keep me barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen. I don't even thing most men are like that. Sure, there are a few, just like there are crazy sperm-jacking women who pop out babies like a machine in order to take advantage of innocent men. I don't think (almost) anyone is sitting around wondering how they can oppress women, nor do I think anyone did it in the 50s or 20s or anything.

I do think that people were very resistant to change in the past. That makes it seem like active oppression to some people...when really it was just a case of people (men and women) desiring the status quo. It perpetuated patriarchy, but it didn't enforce it in a capital P sort of way. We're all getting better about that as a society, I think. Less resistant to change.

[–]TheGDBatman 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]p_iynx 4 points5 points6 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I wrote that response on mobile from work. I misspoke on the first one. I have the time right now to explain my views more fully for the second.

Back in the days where the world was wild and untamed, men protected and provided for the women of the world. Women gathered and did labor near home. We know this to be true. Kingdoms sprang up led by whom? Men. Women were property. They were bargaining chips. In almost every culture in the world this is true. The article itself claimed that there is no truly matriarchal societies. Lines passed through the males, that's how people took names, women couldn't inherit lands or titles...they took all status from their husbands.

Eventually and slowly this changed, moving forward to our much more female-friendly society. We've come a remarkable distance in the fight for female equality. And now it's time to deal with the injustices that remain that affect men and those that affect women, because our society IS unequal at the moment.

If one comment on reddit tells you "everything you need to know" about anything, you should probably worry. Because I am confident in the fact that there is much, much more to my beliefs that you have no clue about. I'm happy to answer questions as long as you are respectful, as I'm being.

[–]Mylon 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Can you tell me, what really is patriarchy?

Men are better equipped to do labor with larger frames and more muscle mass. Women are better equipped for child care with a womb and milk. Men are generally more assertive and ambitious. A historically male dominated society is just the natural outcome of these factors.

Nowadays with infant formula, stronger needs for childcare, tools and machines and more mentally focused jobs there is plenty of opportunity for women to participate just as much as men. I strongly support women having the same opportunities available. A lot of systems were in place to compensate for the career difficulties women faced like child support, alimony, etc but these are less needed. They remain because of inertia.

The lack of women in a large number of fields is also due to inertia. It will take a while for the new generations to fill up the numbers or for culture to shift to make the jobs more appealing to women. But so long as they still have the opportunity to participate in these fields that's fine. Giving massive incentives to draw women into these fields is not healthy. This is the opposite of patriarchy, but an example of feminism.

[–]p_iynx 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Pecanpig 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]roharareddit[S] -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]p_iynx 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

He threatened to leave her if she aborted me, so they got married, had me, he abused her, and she eventually left. He didn't want the divorce, but seriously I commend my mom for having the courage to leave.

He fought for me in the custody trial but he's an abusive, scary man. It was a long, hard-fought trial where both sides could have ended up with custody of me. He got weekend custody and they traded holidays, and TBH I think he only fought for custody out of spite. He proceeded to emotionally abuse me and neglect me during our visits and multiple times he got physically abusive. He hasn't paid for any part of my life since I turned 18, not even contributing to college.

I'm not sure if they discussed how funds were to be spent but my mom used the majority for food and health care (I am ill) and the rest has been put into a bank account in my name or otherwise invested for me.

[–]roharareddit[S] -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Bartab 6 points7 points8 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Mention the words “child support” on Twitter, and you’re likely to set off a bitter discussion. Men complain about a system that unfairly enriches women at the expense of men, while women complain about a system that fails to serve their needs as single mothers.

The thing is, both these statements can be true simultaneously.

Because of child support, successful men are rewarding women for the simple process of having given birth (sometimes not even their child) at financial amounts far in excess of actual child rearing costs, while unsuccessful men are unable to provide even their half of the basic necessities.

It's not even some men subsidizing due to the inability of others, because the money doesn't go to the mothers getting nothing. It's nothing more than "sins of your gender" group penalties.

If it was anything but gender, it would be a unanimous policy to eliminate it. Imagine a world where successful african americans were charged higher taxes because unsuccessful ones were over represented on the dole. Clearly an unacceptable policy.

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