Feminism's problem isn't that they hate men or that they don't care about men's issues. It's that they only superficially care.

gratis_eekhoorn · 2023-07-24T22:59:06+00:00

> I believe that, while there is some overlap between misandrists and feminists that the latter don't want to admit, it is true that most feminists don't hate men.

Most feminists may claim that they don't hate men but we can see the actions of major feminists organizations and quotes of the most influental feminist figures

> I've been lurking in the ask feminists sub and the amount of women going on a rant about how evil assholes men are is pretty small. On the contrary, many women in there have men in their lives that at least they claim to love: fathers, brothers, friends, sons.

Misandry doesnt necessarily mean they can't love individual men in their lives, a lot of people do while holding generally negative views towards males in general.

> And they seem to genuinely believe that feminism serves to help men too, like in thematics like rape stopping to be considered a solely male on female crime,

There was a study that was posted in this sub that shows women are less empathetic towards male victims of sexual assault than they were 40 years ago so I don't think feminism helped them to see rape is not only a male on female crime and let's not forget that major feminist groups in several different countries worked against gender neutral definitions of rape which would recognize male victims.

> and the increase of paternity leave for new fathers so that they have a similar chance as mothers to connect with their babies.

Again, feminists organizations (with NOW being most well known example) worked against 50/50 joint custody by default.

> when they do cover men's problems, feminists tend to oversimplify them, blame things completely outside of feminism for those issues, and react defensively at the mere suggestion that some actions or policies promoted by feminism might have harmed men in general, even if accidentally so.

> Another problem they have is their insistence of treating men and women's macro dynamics as an "oppressor vs oppressed" issue. This inevitably causes feminists to apply double standards whether they do it consciously or subconsciously.

Because thats what their ideology is, women = victim, men = oppressor, you can't expect people with that mindset to help you.

Feminists you are describing here are not very well informed people who think feminism = equality at best and people trying to look more reasonable by not sharing their views fully at worst, the former are especially not very influental people.

gratis_eekhoorn · 2023-07-24T22:42:37+00:00

its problem is all of the above, they (at least the influental ones) hate men, they don't care about male issues and they pretend to superficially care sometimes in order to not create too much opposition

FactorDefiant4311 · 2023-07-24T22:44:07+00:00

yeah yeah, I already admitted men have problems, it's because of toxic masculinity, patriarchy and all of that, that's sucks and is so sad

For all it's other problems, I've long thought that this response - and the term TM itself - is essentially a "thought stopper" designed to deflect more than anything else.

While I agree that it's partly just a preference - some people would just rather talk about women's problems than men's, and that group is probably overrepresented among feminists - I think what's at the root here is a general discomfort shared by most people (men included). They don't actually find it comfortable to talk about men or masculinities in a way that tries to understand men.

Talking about men's issues conflicts with a cultural pressure to just grin and bear it. And talking about masculinity itself - it's like there's a kind of tabboo, as if they're being asked to talk about their private parts, or about some deep religious mystery that can't be explained. So dismissing it as caused by TM is an easy way of tossing it in the too-hard basket.

OppositeBeautiful601 · 2023-07-24T21:39:15+00:00

They treat men's problems as some sort of annoying chore that they somewhat begrudgingly make before going back to what they really want to focus their attention to (women's problems). Kind of a "yeah yeah, I already admitted men have problems, it's because of toxic masculinity, patriarchy and all of that, that's sucks and is so sad and yada yada, can we go back to talk about women please?" situation.

This is my observation as well.

BKEnjoyerV2 · 2023-07-25T03:58:33+00:00

Well it’s only superficial because a lot of the solutions to men’s issues often require women to give up things they either are biologically wired to desire or powers/positions they don’t want to give up. Also, it’s easy to blame large ideologies than to actually provide help/build a system that would mitigate the issues

Juhnthedevil · 2023-07-25T05:57:37+00:00

I mean, they are called feminists, it's normal they prioritize women issues. The problem is that our interest in men's issues is viewed badly while at the same time it's argued men should act in their own problems.

Enzi42 · 2023-07-25T18:20:59+00:00

I also don't think that they hate men, but I believe that people (men and women alike) who believe in the "women are oppressed/men are the oppressors" dynamic are incapable of having truly positive relationships with male humans. That includes their loved ones, up to and including their own children.

Again I don't think that most of them secretly hate what should be their most valued people (there are obviously a few truly unhinged examples, but they aren't the norm). I think that it's more along the lines of a belief that these men and boys, despite their care, are still part of the other side, and thus their wellbeing will always be secondary to the cause.

What I find disturbing (but also slightly relieving since it prevents terrible surprises down the line) is that you really only have to scratch the surface to see how "easily" these people would throw their own brothers, fathers, husbands, cousins, and even sons under the bus if it would benefit or follow some feminist goal or rule.

I use easy in heavy quotes because I don't think that these people would be unaffected by betraying their male loved ones. I actually think it would be painful, maybe even agonizing for them to just throw aside those connections. But they would do it anyway, and that is the horror of it.

If I can give an analogy, there is a video game (that will remain nameless here) where an honorable knight was forced to kill one of his apprentices that he truly cared for. The knight heartbrokenly apologizes over and over again as he stabs the innocent young man, but he does it anyway because it is required of him.

That is how these people are if it comes down to supporting their male loved ones or casting them aside.

Blauwpetje · 2023-07-26T06:33:52+00:00

Is wanting men to toe the line and be good, obedient allies to feminism, and telling them their problems will be solved when they have helped to destroy ‘patriarchy’ man-hating? Maybe not. I have repeated again and again that explicit misandry is not the main flaw of feminism. But their attitude is harming men very much and that is worse than just ‘not caring enough’.

HedgeRunner · 2023-07-26T17:42:46+00:00

rant about how evil assholes men are is pretty small.

Have you tried askwomenover30? Take a look at the top posts. I dare you.

To summarize your point and in particular related to single women in the dating scene (this is where I have the most experience), modern radical feminism is about exerting downward pressure on the value of the average men through delusional high standards, pushing victimizing via oppressor narratives like the Patriarchy, and normalizing the denigration and stereotyping of average men while holding the double standards for the average women. (body positivity anyone? /s)

In the short-term this has an immense lift on the negative emotion of being single and career-oriented (which fits the loudest radical feminists) but in the long-term it tears open long-built traditions that allow male and females to bond and ironically makes single women more depressed, and single men more lost in purpose.

I've said this before, hate is a strong word. Sure even very few radical feminists or women hate all men. (They'll have to be crazy right?) I think subtle (or maybe not) entitlement is much worse. Thinking you are better than others in every dimension just because you're born female is a scary notion if that's a standard belief that permeates western society.

Heavy_Barnacle_4125 · 2023-07-24T20:45:28+00:00

The thing is it's not about caring. The problem is the fact that they are unwilling to accept that they don't have all the answers.

They don't have the answers and their narrative runs on the principle of distrust towards men. That creates a fascist ideology.

They need not hate men, as long as the ones creating or are central to the movement aren't willing to listen to the other stakeholders of society, the ideology is going to end up being fascist.

househubbyintraining · 2023-07-24T20:46:18+00:00

Funny enough we can take advantage of feminists' fake caring but MRAs are to obessed with anti-feminism. The populous wants to know about men's issues and yet the anti-feminism MRAs spout just makes the vast majority of these folks look to feminist who say they care, not men's advocates for questions about men. Which will only teach the populous shit like toxic masculinity, hegemonic masculinity, and shit that's literally derived from racism. Don't even get me started on the rotten with pseudo-science and tantrum tossing manosphere at large who make advocating for men more difficult. This is why I've stopped with anti-feminism, it only damages men.

MGsubbie · 2023-08-03T22:57:15+00:00

Might be a late reaction, but my take is this : Feminism only really cares about men's issues if solving these issues actually benefits women as well. One example is toxic masculinity. They care about it because they believe it's what leads to men committing domestic abuse and sexual assault. If the outcome of fixing a men's issue has no impact on women, the reaction is apathy. If the outcome of fixing a men's issue has a negative impact on women (e.g. not getting as much child support when equal custody becomes the default), they actively oppose fixing the issue.

untamed-italian · 2023-09-23T00:16:07+00:00

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