The ambigiuous reality of The Red Pill.

zyk0s · 2014-04-11T05:27:35+00:00

There's a lot of stuff here, so bear with me. I'll also paraphrase the two posts to save space.

The first is essentially saying: it works but only on bad women, so you'll only attract the bad and see the bad, thus confirming your bias

First, what is "it" in here? TRP is a philosophy, a way of looking at the world, so when this person says "it works", they aren't talking about red pill ideas, but about seduction techniques. People are usually misinformed about what TRP really is about, but they have heard about pickup, so it's more likely they are thinking about negging and pickup lines than general concepts like dominant frame and confidence.

They then say it "only works on certain types of women". Let's assume they're not talking about routines but frame and confidence. A dominant personality works on certain types of women to the same extent a pretty face and hot body work on certain types of men. They're attraction triggers, we are going to be susceptible to them on a primal level, but the ones with more self-control will be able to look past that. A smart man won't invest in a girl who he knows is shallow, promiscuous and manipulative, no matter how nice she looks, just as a smart girl won't get in bed with a low-life drug using thug, no matter how much the bad boy vibe gives her the tingle. Taking the red pill, both for men and for women, means realizing these dangerous dynamics and become that smart person.

You can always ask someone who says TRP only works on certain women "do you think most women are attracted to timid men?" If they say "of course not, we like confident men", then they've confirmed that "TRP works on most women".

The second contains two parts. The first: you think women are shallow, but men are just as bad, and ignoring men's faults basically makes you sexist/hypocrite/shallow

This is a misconception. TRP is actually saying that men are men and women are women, and it's useless to be angry about that fact. The only thing most people here are angry about is actually the reverse: in modern western cultures, men's behavior is vilified, and women's is excused. TRP squarely says: men run after boobs and buts, women run after sociopathic tyrants, and that's all ok.

The second part is basically: women can manipulate men the same way, so the sexes are actually similar. And trying to manipulate is reprehensible, so what you're doing is wrong

That's another misunderstanding. Women do not manipulate men through a dominant frame, but through sex, and they adopt a dominant frame when it works. That is a very big difference, and the most important aspect is that women can get their way with a man's mind completely passively, doing nothing but looking pretty. There's a very convenient consequence to this in that a woman has plausible deniability of intent. The same happens as with courtship initiation: the man has to be the actor and therefore bears all responsibility.

The core message of TRP is that men and women are different psychologically and their sexual strategies are very different, and trying to compare or equalize things will result in failure. To be successful men need to be the actor, and this is something women like. The fear of manipulation stacks the odds towards those who can do it passively (attractive people) and can actively sabotage a man's shot at happiness.

[deleted] · 2014-04-11T12:39:51+00:00

[permanently deleted]

Prometheus720 · 2014-04-11T05:39:31+00:00

This all comes back to a theory of business.

When you engage in any sort of relation with a woman (actually anyone at all, but in this case let's just talk women), you are making a trade, and in doing so, you are most likely engaging in a morally acceptable way.

Free trade, by nature, means that both parties believe that they benefit from the other's offering more than they benefit from what they are offering. Both parties always believe that they will benefit. Sometimes they're wrong about that, but that doesn't mean that their trade was immoral; it is always the responsibility of each partner to be well-informed.

RedPill allows men to be well-informed of the trade they are making. By studying RedPill, their trades become more successful, their confidence in the market's stability increases, and the quantity of trading done also increases, thus benefiting ALL parties because, as I said, trade generally benefits everyone. RedPill also allows men to learn what the market is really asking for. By knowing what women want, they are able to provide a better product for women and feel better about the trades they are making. Let's face it, people like to take pride in quality.

The issues, now, come when sleezy trading happens. When one or both parties try to trick the other into something that isn't actually necessary or pretend that the product is better than it really is, I call that sleezy trading, and it's bad for two reasons.

The traders suffer individually from getting a shitty product
News gets out that shitty trades are going on and confidence in the market declines, leading to less trading.

Both men and women engage in this sleezy trading, but RedPill does not cause any of it. In fact, RedPill theory allows men to avoid female-initiated sleezy trading completely.

Critics of RedPill and Seduction will claim that these resources arm men with the ability to trade more sleezily, more easily, and that's true. Then again, it's also true that guns give people the ability to kill very easily, but when everyone has a gun, for some reason, people act a little more polite. A world full of RedPill men and the female equivalent would allow for much more fulfilling sex and romance in life than what we have now.

Raggos · 2014-04-11T09:44:22+00:00

That is some grade-A KEYBOARD logic. It makes sense from here, but if you are in the nightclub, you're gonna go with TRP. For example, fuck talking about "NAWALT", TRP only works on these bad bitches, and as a result, you attract bad bitches into your life. Homie, last time I checked, you don't have a way of telling what a girl's character is like until you are given the fling a shot, meaning you need to hook the girl (have the game) BEFORE you differentiate between good or bad.

Ultimately, she is a mystery until you get her, so would you rather be able to get her, and thus find out, or not get her? From the keyboard it makes logical sense, TRP attracts low self-esteem women, etc, but in reality, it makes NO sense. The hottest girls in the club to the nerdiest little Ivy League sweethearts will respond to TRP - and anyone who has actually been doing this shit in reality knows the only question to ask is "Does my game / TRP game get my dick past the first checkpoint."

And through this method, you will meet a lot of bad women. That is because you are meeting 10, 20x as many women as your average dude, and since statistically speaking, most women (and men) suck, as a result, you will have a lot more low tier bitches on your dick. But unlike the armchair warrior who has decided that TRP will just flood you with club trash, you will also get than 1 in 20, that 1 in 100 that makes it all worth it.

And the last paragraph is true to an extent. TRP does have a problem with weak men who would rather bitch about how women have it easy or how women are so horrible. But TRP also has a lot of good moderation and posters who try to tell these other posters to nut up, use TRP as a tool to comb over your own flaws and fix your own weaknesses. Some of these guys will not change, but many of these guys being so upset and harsh about women are just dealing with pain in their own way, and they will focus internally rather than focusing on female weaknesses as soon as they get over the hump of feeling like a world-hating angry bitch.

It is not about who is wrong and who is right. For the reddit, armchair level of argument, that substandard plane of existence, they are right and we are right. We're all right. In terms of what makes sense as an isolated, persuasive segment, I would say that these are reasonable posts and "right" in there own way.

But in reality, which is all that matters, I know that men and women who think like OP's posters do tend to simply be hamstering. In reality, I know that TRP responds to all women, even the 10s with perfect confidence, and I know that while some women rock, most are just decent, but highly flawed people who would not make good LTRs and should be kept to a plate until they prove something more. In reality, thinking that women are equally competent as men sounds pretty, but will always let you down.

See, in the blue pill fantasy world, the matrix, anything can be true because we are living in a socially constructed world. Give me your ideologies and morals and expectations and intellectualizations. But in reality, just shut up and give me what works. In the ugly reality where looks, money, and status DO matter, and it is a battle between women and men, and there might be abundance in your mentality, but theres more dudes than girls in this club so some of you aren't fucking... I'll take my chances with the RP and be the "bad guy" who thinks "all women are weak" yadda yadda yadda.

[deleted] · 2014-04-11T09:46:09+00:00

it only works on certain types of women, and those types are the ones who confirm all those awful things which you are coming to believe about women

Guess what? I've tried "your" way. It doesn't work. It fails. Repeatedly and consistently. I was meeting those "certain types" of women before TRP ever existed. Those "awful things" were confirmed before I ever fired up an internet browser. So, if there's a strategy to give myself more of a choice among these "certain types" of women, I'm all ears.

It would be just as easy for women to start up their own "RedPill" (and some group of them may have, somewhere) talking about how men just want sex, and submissive behaviors, etc, talking about how easy it would be to manipulate men into being with them by maximizing their adherence to those behaviors.

Whaaa?! Women don't need such a group - they're more well acquainted with these techniques than a grass is to green. Have you watched TV in the last 50 years? Have you ever gone outside? I guess no more high heels for you. No more makeup. No more skirts. Oh, I see, you don't think that's manipulation, do you? Oh right, you do it for yourself... Run some more circles for me...HAMSTER!

rporion · 2014-04-11T03:40:07+00:00

Several points

It is true in some ways that NAWALT. The median number for a woman is around 4 if she is between 15-45, the average number is around 9, so there is carousel riding going on but a lot of women, in fact most women, do not take part in in.

However, out of sheer mathematical necessity, the women you meet will be more on the sloot side than not, so in a way the redpill is like a condom, yes.

Then AWALT. They mistake the redpill with GAME, which can be seen as a bunch of parlor tricks.

If Mystery can have a nervous breakdown because of some pretty average chick so can most guys who consider themselves players but if they think that "nice girls" do not want a confident man in great physical shape that dresses well and whatnot and who actually knows whats going on they are sorely mistaken.

So, even for "nice girls" being kind and attentive and whatnot comes after you have established your "alpha" cred.

The redpill, whether they like it or not is also about social dynamics, both in a club and on a societal level.

I think that every young man should know that Joe Provider is getting a very, very raw deal and if he follows that road out of sheer social inertia chances are he will get the shaft.

ACALT. Not all women are that way, but they all can be that way, with the full back up of a nation state and public opinion.

That alone is reason enough to enter any relationship with a woman with a healthy amount of mistrust.

rporion · 2014-04-11T04:12:06+00:00

So, I now have read all of it and the sheer amount of hamstering and snowflaking is overwhelming.

What takes the cake though is that the redpill is committing the "generalization fallacy".

While generalizations can be hasty, or faulty, or just plain intellectual garbage, can someone please inform this gentleman that he just ruled out that inductive reasoning can be of any value?

I cant, my brain hurts.

buddhabullshit · 2014-04-11T05:56:36+00:00

Intelligent people by definition are rare, and someone who is intelligent and respectable is even more rare. Not a crazy assumption at all to think unicorns are rare; they are.

Rollo-Tomassi · 2014-04-11T15:29:47+00:00

I guess is the right word, reading through your comments here on this thread. I mean, do you get that you are coming across as shallow.

http://therationalmale.com/2012/11/20/shallow/

Women are just human beings.

And pitbulls and Rotweilers are just dogs. Are you wary around those breeds of dog, or is each a special consideration?

http://therationalmale.com/2012/11/06/people-are-people/

NAWALT,..unless all women being like that serves the Feminine Imperative:

http://therationalmale.com/2013/10/23/not-all-women-arent-like-that/

Prometheus720 · 2014-04-11T05:52:00+00:00

Furthermore, to the first woman who criticizes the vicious cycle of slut-fucking....

Is that somehow worse than NOT having a sex life? People who are unsuccessful with RedPill advice would probably be no better off (or worse) without it. Who are we to say which is better? RedPill doesn't promise specific results; it gives men the resources to produce the results that they desire. If men fail, that is their responsibility. If men desire something other than what you think they should desire, that is their prerogative, as long as they aren't harming anyone.

Taking the RedPill is a choice; there are unpleasant side-effects and quite a few risks involved. But that's a choice for men to make, not women. Those men who take the Pill must assume full responsibility for their actions and the outcomes of their actions. Any man who has the problems the first woman describes and blames the Pill obviously did not read the warning labels or the instructions on the bottle, and that's his fault and it's his duty as a man to fix it.

[deleted] · 2014-04-11T06:57:34+00:00

TRP is not about manipulating women into sex, its about becoming a stronger version of yourself. Being able to identify shit tests, keeping your guard up and ALSO knowing how to play the game are all tools every man should know... and most of these things could also be learnt by women. But make no mistake, we are not equals, and not acknowledging our differences is simply put stupid and can only lead to getting burnt. Most of us have been burnt at some point for ignoring these differences, and because as modern men, we've been taught since childhood that we should not only cool down many of our manly features (being aggressive, competitive) but to treat women as if they are inherently more special than us. So in the dating game, they already have the upper hand. Marriage/divorce laws are still more beneficial to women, the law in general is tougher with men than with women and feminism simply expects men to give women respect for the mere fact that they have a vagina.

TL;DR: we are not equals, and women dont need their version of TRP, because there are too fucking many BP men that they don't even have to try to improve themselves to get what they want.

[deleted] · 2014-04-11T08:45:01+00:00

This thread being upvoted so highly here, compared to any trp thread in any other subreddit tells you a lot about who's open to actual discussion of the facts and who's not.

AgentSmith27 · 2014-04-11T16:45:04+00:00

Honestly, I think those responses are 100% valid criticisms of what many people here believe. I think the problem is that people inevitably oversimplify everything, to the point where the actual truth is so filtered down that it now completely misses the point.

The truth is that reality can be very complicated. For one, practically everyone is out for their own best interest. Its true with male to male relationships, as well as male female relationships. Most people who don't really give a shit about you will take advantage of you if they can. It can be very hard to tell who really gives a shit about you and who doesn't. This is not a justification of bad behavior by women, but instead a reality check. Many times, people that you probably trust will in fact fuck you over if they had the chance.... relatives, friends, coworkers, girlfriends, etc. A lot of them won't care about you as much as you think they do, or would like them to. That's life.

Common TRP advice does help prevent being manipulated/used/etc, but some of it also advocates manipulating/using/etc. I guess its a valid tactic in a dog eat dog world, but it is hypocritical to criticize others for doing the same thing. For lack of better terms, if you are ok with doing these things, you can't hate the players... hate the game...

The problem is that 80% of the people are socially self entitled. They want a lot, but don't want to give anything. This goes for guys and girls all the same. Due to this, it tends to be harder to be a good natured and caring person. TRP isn't wrong in this respect. You will frequently get walked on if you are too nice.

People are opposed to TRP because it works against the ideal. The ideal, of course, is that everyone should just be nice and upstanding people. Advocating that people act in purely their best interest, like many do in TRP, flies against this. Again though, most people are self entitled jerks, so they always think they are one of those "moral" people... statistically speaking, most are not.

But they aren't wrong. If everyone did work closer to the moral ideal, things would be better. TRP isn't collectively helping to make a better society, its making things better for yourself. Depending on how you look at it, this can either be good or bad.

The bottom line is that the world is the way it is. Its pointless to ferment in anger about how bad everyone else is. You need to just accept that a lot of people suck, and learn how to deal with it. How you individually approach it is up to you.

cascadecombo · 2014-04-11T09:15:44+00:00

With the second entry being quite long I'll stick to this.

"If you follow the advice of the redpillers, you will find it does work, there's no doubt about it, you will have more success with attracting women, but what you might not realise it that it only works on certain types of women, and those types are the ones who confirm all those awful things which you are coming to believe about women ... any decent self-respecting woman will avoid you, and you likewise will avoid any decent self-respecting woman ... they will be off your radar, almost as if they don't exist ... decent trustworthy respectable intelligent women are as rare as unicorns, according to redpill mythology, and it will certainly seem that way. In other words, you are entering a feedback loop where you attract the kind of women who you cannot respect, and through their behaviour they will confirm that ''women'' do not deserve respect."

I don't necessarily find this to be true at all. This works on the girls in bars who are your for just a night, and it works on the girls you meet through friends who aren't the type to do a one nighter and actually want something more. And what about the RP theories that married men use to regain the control they need (and their wives want them to have) in their marriage.

Why is it when TRP is talked about it's almost only slut shaming of sorts.

johnnight · 2014-04-11T09:18:56+00:00

By definition, the introvert, low notch count women are hiding out of sight, do not frequent clubs, do not have OKCupid accounts, etc.

There is some truth to the fact that the population of women that a man looking for sex encounters is self-selected. Therefore generalizations about this group apply to this group. This group is definitely large, we are not talking about outliers here. The question is how much can these generalizations be applied to the rest of the population.

It's hard to say, but our assumption is that biology is universal and much of the TRP will apply anyway. I can not point to a TRP axiom about men, that I found to be blatantly false.

SgtBrutalisk · 2014-04-11T15:33:25+00:00

Women can never have their own TRP, because they can't fraternize the way men do. In fact, 10+ women on the same spot means instant cliques, catty behavior and fights. I've seen examples of this even in RPW from endorsed contributors (sorry danabanana). What a silly, silly idea.

BluepillProfessor · 2014-04-11T15:37:06+00:00

Not even close! First, why are you arguing these points. Just use them and don't try to convert the masses. Go out and talk to girls like they are your little sister. Tease them. Show them amused mastery and you can verify RP theory and you will see this works on EVERY woman. NOT a 'certain type' of woman. Every single woman responds to these techniques. They may not respond to YOU or your use of them but they respond to playful dominance, with a strong frame control (calm, confident, all together, leadership).

Second, whether it is the secretary who answers the phone or the senior partner in the law office they respond. Men respond to this frame positively as well.

raouldukeesq · 2014-04-11T18:22:08+00:00

"If you follow the advice of the redpillers, you will find it does work, there's no doubt about it, you will have more success with attracting women, but what you might not realise it that it only works on certain types of women,"

This is 100% untrue. Being confident, assertive, not caring about the outcome, not showing weakness, standing up for yourself, avoiding oneits etc.. works with enough women to apply the rule to all of them. She really undermines her credibility with this statement.

However, her comments about hypocrisy are spot on. Way to many posts equate men with good, women with evil. Alpha with good, beta with bad. However, there are also numerous posts that explain that the different natures of men and women are by and large neutral and natural and posts that explain that alpha and beta behaviors are measured on a continuum and shared by all. So, her criticism is fair but isn't entirely accurate.

[deleted] · 2014-04-11T18:22:31+00:00

There's so much wrong with those comments that I'll just leave a few thoughts rather than break them down.

First, they're arguing by using NAWALT. There's plenty written about AWALT, including a solid post that was submitted this week. Thinking different women have vastly different attraction triggers is wrong.

Along the same lines, they think TRP = PUA, which is obviously not the case. What they mean when they say "TRP doesn't work on all women" is that inexperienced, obvious PUAs who try to neg every woman in sight will not be successful in attracting a good woman. Since this isn't a PUA sub, those comments don't apply to us.

Also, strawmen:

"you feel like YOU are justified for some reason, whereas "women" aren't."
to just say "women can't help themselves, and I think that's pathetic" is simply solipsistic.
Why is the woman the "bad guy" in that situation, but people from TRP are somehow enlightened with their "philosophy"?

None of this has been stated by people who understand RP ideas. Some of it has a tiny hint of truth that is so grossly simplified as to be essentially false. This is probably why you can't articulate why it's wrong. They're using gross mischaracterizations of TRP to define the debate and attacking the strawmen. If you want more examples of that, go argue with a BPer at PPD.

sir_wankalot_here · 2014-04-11T08:41:54+00:00

The first truth is most people including guys on this subreddit don't want to admit they are manipulated by marketing. Most of TRP is marketing. The second truth is marketing is gender based.

Pick up any marketing book, and it will tell you the same thing as TRP.

The "any self respecting woman" is a true Scotsman Fallacy. Ofcourse when I use the terms "any real man" or a "true alpha" that isn't a true scotsman fallacy.

theredpill101 · 2014-04-11T15:57:11+00:00

Solid post. Solid questions. I'd like to see this open into a greater discussion on what Red Pill is throughout the subreddit.

Everything you encounter in life needs to be taken with a grain of salt - Red Pill Philosophy included.

That is not to say however, that Red Pill Philosophy is without merit. At it's base, the Red Pill encourages men to be men. To improve oneself, to act with more confidence and less disdain for oneself. That is what I appreciate about it.

Go out and exercise more? That's a good thing, regardless of who you are.

Develop greater self-confidence and greater self-respect? That's a good thing, regardless of who you are.

Find things that interest you and live your own life without conforming to the wants of others? That's a part of a healthy life, regardless of who you are.

Emulate/become a person with strong, admirable character traits (trustworthiness, respect, honor, altruism, work-ethic)? That's a good thing, regardless of who you are.

There are things floating around here that I do not agree with (and in which I am certain I am not alone): developing a disdain for women as a whole, treating women/uninitiated men poorly, using women (people) for personal gain/my own (selfish) ends, developing a sense of narcissism.

Ever watch the film American Beauty? The character played by Kevin Spacey finds himself unhappy at his job, unhappy in his marriage, unhappy with his life. Where does he find happiness? In developing his own interests. In releasing his pent-up frustration and indulging his dreams (new car, fun job, expressing himself). Does he care when his wife cheats on him? No. His life formerly revolved around his marriage (leaving him unhappy). When he begins to focus on improving himself, he finds that his marriage is only a PART of who he is (by the time he realizes it, his marriage is a sham that doesn't affect him at all), but Spacey's greater self is his ideals, his own desires, his own life.

As has been written: There is an initiation phase to Red Pill in which people find themselves angry and conceited at the world. Unfortunately, much of this is directed at the "enemy" (usually women). With time, study, and practice however, Red Pill provides an enlightenment into being a better human. With time, the anger fades, and with respect for oneself comes respect for others.

In my opinion, society as a whole benefits from those who are initiated and enlightened by the Red Pill. But you will not find it among those who have only recently discovered it.

NrwhlBcnSmrt-ttck · 2014-04-11T15:46:06+00:00

"Only Slutty Women Are Like That". OSWALT.

garlicextract · 2014-04-11T17:09:31+00:00

The second post is irritating, especially to anyone who's been a beta orbiter (I think a decent amount of us used to be BP). I one-itised this one biracial girl who I couldn't have, and became an orbiter. I thought she had no idea about how much I liked her... little did I know she knew exactly, and dear god, I basically handed her a nuclear weapons arsenal with that knowledge.

As I looked back and put it into perspective, from the time she kissed me on the neck, to the occasional compliments she gave, to the way she played on my insecurities which I had shared with her (remember, I was a beta bitch) she was incredibly manipulative. One of the key moments was when led an active cockblocking campaign trying to prevent me from getting with another biracial girl...

She knew she couldn't have me, which was the driving factor for her telling me all kinds of terrible shit about the other girl, who was hotter and the same ethnicity. I doubt most of that shit she said was even true, now, but I believed it at the time. It's frustrating thinking about it now. This girl had her own relationship, but because she had feelings for me, couldn't bear to see me happy in one of my own? What kinda shit is that? If I had a girl who was head over heels for me, and she was crushing on a guy, you can be sure as shit I'd encourage her to get with him and even help her out if necessary.

Just imagine the backlash if people learned I had told this hypothetical girl that the other guy was a scumbag, and told her if she kept giving me blowjobs I might someday date her. That's the equivalent.

The frustration against the concept of the orbiter aka "time ho" is why others think TRP disdains women. Reverse the roles, and the woman will literally bleed you dry, playing mind games, keeping you orbiting, wasting your fucking life like a strenuous part time job where you aren't paid.

SkorchZang · 2014-04-11T19:21:51+00:00

BP oils gonna spill.

mbillion · 2014-04-11T20:35:40+00:00

Well versed and articulated psychobabble is still just well versed and articulate psychobabble. These are the rationalizations people tell themselves. I never got the women I wanted until I started the red pill. I am talking about young, fit, career/task oriented women who have confidence, self esteem, good looks, an education and a life.

The idea that you will only find female slobs and skanks using the red pill is a joke. Women like men, not boys or lady boys or effeminate little guys. A lot of guys on here are short sighted just looking to fill a dumpster with cum. But the reality is if applied appropriately with discern, dignity and temperance the red pill offers much more than slut mongering.

cooltrip · 2014-04-11T21:20:44+00:00

"... decent trustworthy respectable intelligent women..."

Do these women prefer non-Alphas?

Are these women so intelligent and eminent that they are perfectly okay with accepting non-Alpha men they have to maintain, just like men are perfectly okay with accepting dependent women that need to be maintained?

Answer: no

Conclusion: red pill is true.

She wants to disprove red pill? then she has to show a woman (and AN ONLY woman is enough for beating the whole red pill theory) who authentically prefers non-Alpha men.

Anything else (decency, trustworthiness, respectability, etc) is bullshit.

[deleted] · 2014-04-12T03:00:06+00:00

I feel this moreso applies to the seduction community. TRP focuses on self improvement which as a side effect gets women. Seduction imo used to but put it by the wayside.

SgtBrutalisk · 2014-04-11T15:54:56+00:00

Also, I've just read that thread, dear Lord, I've never seen so many pretenders in one thread. They have no fucking clue what they're talking about, and yet, it's all "TRP advices are wrong yadda yadda". You'd say they're all masters of speed-reading.

I've asked them to state a few of these advices, let's see what happens. Now I expect they'll scramble to read TRP sidebar.

Title	The ambigiuous reality of The Red Pill.
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	87
Comments	64
Date	April 11, 2014 3:00 AM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/TheRedPill
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/22qzjo/the_ambigiuous_reality_of_the_red_pill/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/TheRedPill/the-ambigiuous-reality-of-the-red-pill.13908 https://theredarchive.com/post/13908

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