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[–]Nynx1220 points21 points22 points 11 years ago (18 children) | Copy Link
I won't have children without being married. Most men on TRP see marriage as a risk that's not worth taking, and with things as they are currently that's understandable. But I just can't imagine a quality women being enthusiastic about raising children without getting married first. To me, that would be a huge red flag and a sign that she is not child-raising material in the first place.
[–]proprioceptor7 points8 points9 points 11 years ago (17 children) | Copy Link
I'm with you here. I think an important part of wanting to have kids is wanting to provide them with an environment and family situation that is stable and dependable. I think that can really set apart women who "want children" from women who "want a baby to dress up and look cute".
[–]Mehrune -2 points-2 points-2 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I think there's no reason to feel as though a married environment is any different than a committed ltr, mother, father environment other than the titles "Husband and Wife" and the rings.
There has to be one women on here who feels the same way...family without marriage?
[–][deleted] 14 points15 points16 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
There are millions. Low quality single mom's. Go get you one
[–]TempestTcup7 points8 points9 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Go to any dive bar and there will be plenty of girls there who wouldn't mind having babies out of wedlock. Heck, most of them will already have one or two, so you can just add yours to her brood.
[–][deleted] 4 points4 points4 points 11 years ago | Copy Link
[permanently deleted]
[–]armoredsoul1991 2 points2 points2 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Question to this statement: what about marriage and a family unit, the whole 9 yards, but only having a religious/social union? Meaning the couple is still married by an officiate, in front of God, family, or whatever, but keep big brother government out of it completely.
[–][deleted] 3 points3 points3 points 11 years ago | Copy Link
[–]armoredsoul1991 1 points1 points1 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Well, I would assume, as is the norm for this sub, that the man would be the provider, and would claim the kids, and would pay whatever taxes were due for him. The wife would more than likely not earn enough outside the home to be taxed excessively, and that would even then be paid by the husband, as is his responsibility. The husband would also pay for whatever out of home expenses the wife would have, like health care and such. And as for child custody, isn't that what living wills and other lawyer-ed documents are for?
[–]TempestTcup0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
as is the norm for this sub, that the man would be the provider
There are a few RPW who are SAHMs but the vast majority of us work full time.
[–]proprioceptor2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago* (5 children) | Copy Link
Is the only reason that you aren't interested in marriage as opposed to a committed LTR because of financial reasons?
You sounds like you're fishing for a specific answer that simply isn't what most of us believe.
[–]Mehrune 2 points2 points2 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Yes, basically, however after seeing the responses I've garnered from both AskTRP and TRPWomen, I've opted out of ever wanting to have a child. Not really worth it, imo. Not that I wanted one to begin with, I was asking just encase I ever changed my mind.
So I guess I side with women that don't want marriage or children.
[–]Vicsma8 points9 points10 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
You just need to find a career-oriented, child-free woman who makes decent money. Many women (myself included) don't need to get married just to be married. But in the case of children, especially if you were looking for a stay at home mom type, incredibly unlikely you'll find a smart, high quality woman who will do that without marriage.
[–]TempestTcup8 points9 points10 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
That would be best. Then, never commingle assets: don't buy a house together, have your cars in separate names, no joint accounts, etc. To be extra sure, you probably shouldn't even live together in some states. You could buy houses next to each other or rent apartments in the same building. Then you and you money will live happily ever after!
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
♀
[–]trpbot[M] 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Confirmed: 1 point awarded to /u/TempestTcup by homo_homini_lupus. [History]
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[–][deleted] 1 points1 points1 points 11 years ago | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
We do understand it. The whole purpose of RPW is to create women who understand it and try to become something worth the risk. Quality women are not going to want to remain without the status of marriage. It's just unrealistic
[–]yourdaybreaks12 points13 points14 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Of course there are women out there who don't want to get married, but I'm assuming the majority of women on RPW do.
I would never plan on having kids without being married first. It wouldn't feel like a family unit and I would want us all to share my husband's name. I know divorce can fuck a guy over, but pick your woman wisely.
[–]Mehrune 0 points0 points0 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I don' think it's worth the risk, even if I'm marrying a Mother Theresa type personality.
I would much rather have a solid family unit without marriage, and I just hope I can find a girl with the same mindset.
[–]TempestTcup16 points17 points18 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Baby Momma vs. Wife
Temporary vs. Permanent
[–]rpMwafrika7 points8 points9 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Then hire a surrogate and a nanny.
[–][deleted] 7 points8 points9 points 11 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link
Why not write up a pre-nup to protect your assets? I feel like pre-nups have a bad reputation, but I think it's very useful to sit down BEFORE you're headed for divorce and out for blood and to decide how much money and what assets your wife would get if your marriage ends.
If you and your (future) wife decide to have her stay home with your (future) children, she is taking an enormous risk. She's dropping out of the work force, which will affect her long-term earning potential and (sometimes) her ability to get a mortgage and other types of credit if you were to get divorced.
I think the divorce system goes a little too far in some cases, but it's designed as it is to protect women who stay home to raise their children. It's your responsibility as a husband to allow her to maintain a somewhat similar lifestyle if you get divorced because of the sacrifices she has made by dropping out of the work force and limiting her ability to support herself.
[–][deleted] 0 points0 points0 points 11 years ago | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Saving thousands of dollars per month in child care expenses is nothing?
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
That is positively absurd. Is that the norm where you live?
[–]Vicsma0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
If someone is a working mom, they build a career, make their own money, and are able to support themselves should their husband leave them/cheat/die. A SAHM risks being left alone with no career, no money, no experience, etc.. Child support doesn't replace the money one would make having a career 20 years in the making.
Having a working man, and a SAHM is a luxury for BOTH parties.
[–]Mehrune -4 points-4 points-4 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I wouldn't be her husband though, as I have no intention of ever getting married. She would be taking an enormous risk if she did decide to be a stay at home mom no doubt. I would have no problem helping her get back on her feet if it didn't work out.
Also prenups usually are thrown out, and don't count for much.
I would feel much safer if we were never married, had no joint accounts, etc.
[–]PicklesAndPears 7 points7 points7 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
As a lawyer, I can say that prenups definitely are not "usually thrown out." Get yourself a good lawyer and stop worrying. The rational RPW will be okay with a prenup, but NOT with having children out of wedlock.
[–]Jabroni123450 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
As a lawyer...
Stop lying. 7 days ago you said you were going through 3L (3rd year of law school) exams. 6 days ago you said, in your own thread about your BF telling white lies, that you're "Not a lawyer yet, just a confused law student".
Stop lying. Don't claim you're a lawyer when you're not. You're not a "lawyer" until you've passed the bar----which is in Feb and July. You can be a law student or a holder of a JD, but not a lawyer until you've passed the bar.
I'm sure you've sat through Family Law classes as a law student, but what happens in real practice is different.
[–]TempestTcup3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
That isn't true for most people in the US who hired a good lawyer for the prenup.
Good luck with that.
[–]lucysplainin4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (21 children) | Copy Link
I've lived with my boyfriend for three years and even though he tells me that he plans on marrying me someday I would not consider having children until we are actually married. While I love living with my boyfriend, there are times when I doubt it was even a good idea to move in together before getting married-I already do all the "wifely duties" like cleaning, cooking, ect., and I feel like I've sort of removed a huge part of the incentive for marriage. I wouldn't change my present situation but I'd suggest to my future daughters to wait until after an engagement to cohabitate and would definitely not suggest children outside of marriage.
[–]bouchu54135 points6 points7 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Please. I make just as much money as my husband and we both have big retirement/pension plans. I would not have been willing to even entertain children outside of marriage because I believe children function best in a marriage environment and I am not going to risk having children with someone that won't commit fully to me as my spouse rather than my "baby daddy." Marriage is the ultimate commitment and lack of that was a complete deal breaker.
I offered to get a prenup to protect me and to protect him. He didn't want one and I believe I chose well so I didn't push the issue either.
If we were to divorce in 10+ years he would probably be able to "divorce rape" me because my job has a high upside and he will be retired with reduced income.
[–]tintedlipbalm3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago* (18 children) | Copy Link
What does not marrying entail that makes it so important to you? Is it your insecurity of her? Or is it your desire to be able to leave her pregnant with nothing? Same fear, different perspectives
[–]tintedlipbalm3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link
The advice taken from the red pill perspective depends on which side of the game you are and what you want. Women here want commitment, commitment comes in the form of marriage, not friends with benefits. I also disagree with statism, but this is how things are.
[–][deleted] 2 points2 points2 points 11 years ago | Copy Link
[–]tintedlipbalm2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
I am talking about reality as it is now, not the ideal of things. Marriage currently is the legitimization of said commitment, regardless of our qualms with it
[–]aguy010 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
The thing is it legitimizes the man's commitment, but not the woman's. If the woman has nothing to lose then she isn't making a commitment. That is the catch of marriage for men. She gets all the benefits of having you hooked legally, with no consequences if she leaves.
[–]tintedlipbalm1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link
I also think the current state of marriage in the West is unfair to men, and I am not oblivious to TRP's side of things. I precisely come here to know more about what makes a relationship a good, long lasting one, where he is happy too- I never said everything is fair and smooth and perfect. Still, as a woman, I simply wouldn't have kids without getting married first, and I was raised like that. I was responding to a guy who basically thinks that women here should drop that standard for him to have his cake and eat it too.
[–]tintedlipbalm0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link
Okay, good luck in this stage you're going through, friend
[–]FleetingWishEndorsed Contributor0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
There is a logic to it. Just like the red pill, the women here want what is in their best interests. Marriage is in their bests interests because it provides them financial security (ie they will be insured if things go south). It is really no different than the red pill's willingness to pump and dump girls, even though it will hurt the girls partner count. The women here want to get married because it's good for them.
We are not in relationships with TRP; we are in relationships with normal men, and our objective is to have a committed harmonious marriage that meets both parties needs. Plus, most of us work full time, and some even out earn their husbands. I have no clue what you mean by "you gals get a free ride" because my 50+ hours working per week is anything but free.
Why on earth would the female automatically get alimony? Most of us have good jobs.
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
That's why a marriage is important to a woman. You answered your own question. As a woman, I'm not having kids with a man who can walk out and leave me stranded with them without consequences for him. In a kidless relationship, it doesn't matter if you're married or not. With kids, I'd make damn sure my kids' father was tied to the children so he couldn't walk off when things quit being as fun (and kids are guaranteed to make a relationship less fun for awhile).
[–]rpMwafrika2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link
On this sub there are
women who don't want kids+ want to get married
women who want kids +want to get married
women who don't want kids + don't want to get married
EDIT I want to have kids someday with my SO and we are already planning to get married first. I guess its different in my country because marriage and divorce laws here are fair to both parties. Assets are divided according to the contribution made towards acquisition or according to what's agreed in the prenup. Maintenance is only ordered if a spouse can prove there was desertion by the other spouse. Child custody is given to the stable spouse and the child's well being is of primary importance. Assets and liabilities accrued by an individual before the marriage remain the individuals own responsibility.
Short of getting a prenup with a high value woman that will stick with you for life or hiring a surrogate and a nanny, I don't see how your plan will work out.
[–]Mehrune 1 points1 points1 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
If I continue to live in America I'm opting for a girl number 3. Who wants an LTR, but no kids, or marriage.
What country to you live in where it's fair?
[–]rpMwafrika2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link
Kenya
EDIT: We don't have 'no fault' divorce. The spouse seeking divorce has to prove there was desertion, cruelty, adultery, mental illness, imprisonment of over 5 yrs
[–]eatplaycrushEndorsed Contributor6 points7 points8 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
So, if you view it as a risk then what exactly is wrong with women viewing you as a risk? Kids and no marriage is a giant risk, just like marriage is to you. Good luck there.
It's true, but the difference is that the guy gets legal consequences in a divorce, and he loses the girl, but he just loses the girl if he doesn't marry.
[–]eatplaycrushEndorsed Contributor0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I don't know too much about child laws, but I do know laws tend to favor females. He wouldn't be just losing the women, but what about the child or children that they acquire in this "no marriage and having kids" relationship? Do you really believe that the women would not do everything possible to hamster and really cause a shit storm with the children's custody arrangements? So, yeah, I don't really care. All I'm saying is don't expect to find a serious RPW type female to have children with if you aren't willing to be vulnerable either. There are a plethora of naive women who I'm sure would be more than happy to have this set-up, but I can almost gurantee you will not see the potential in her that you would see out of an RPW female.
He posted in RPW so it's clear he is interested in a female partner with similar views. This is just the reality of his question.
[–]TempestTcup2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
It's not getting married that is risky, it's having kids that is risky. You can protect yourself in marriage by never commingling your assets and by having an ironclad prenup by a good lawyer. People say that prenups are "thrown out every day" but that isn't true in the US.
Having kids with a woman you aren't married to is riskier than having kids with your wife because either way, if you two split, you still have child support, but if you aren't married your chances of getting custody are greatly reduced.
[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
no
[–]JackGoldsteinWrites1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Depends. In some places in Europe and in French Canada, common law relationships with kids are quite common.
I know personally my girlfriend wants to quit her job and raise kids but is waiting till she is married.
Yeah that's another thing, I have to make sure we aren't common law married as well. Probably draw up a non-marital cohabitation agreement of sorts.
There has to be a few women out there opposed to marriage, but for children and a solid monogamous committed LTR. Surprised I'm not seeing many on here.
[–][deleted] 9 points10 points11 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
You think this woman will be a high value, respectful loving giving yielding woman who treats you well? Good luck
There are hundreds of women who fit your scenario, good luck living with them
[–]JackGoldsteinWrites3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I wouldn't hold my breath. The kind of woman who wants to be a devoted SAHM wants security of marriage, and I totally get that. She is going to raise kids, pass up hundreds of thousands of career earnings and if things go sour she'll be out in the cold if she isn't married.
If I do get married, I will get a pre-nup. I've already talked about it with the g/f - but basically the gist is I will give her enough support to get back on her feet if things don't work out. (i.e., if she is a dental hygenist making $25,000 a year, she quits to be a stay at home mom for 20 years, I will "pay" her the equivalent of $25,000 net of tax for 2 yrs so she can go to school, refresh her knowledge and get back to work).
[–]LifterofThings1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
So do all women need to be married to have children and stay in a committed LTR with a guy?
Short answer: no.
Long answer: it makes it a lot easier. Internally, a relationship is as legitimate and serious as the two people involved choose to make it. The difference is that externally, a "husband" is granted more legitimacy than a "boyfriend". For instance, "I need this day off work to attend my husband's work function" is more likely to be honored than for a "boyfriend's work function" (I don't have sources for this-- just my own observations).
External supports such as these shouldn't make or break a relationship, of course, but they do make an LTR easier, and if your goal is to be together for 30+ years, there's nothing wrong with getting a little help along the way.
YMMV with individual women. In my own relationship, while I'd eventually like to be married (I want to be "his", with his name and all), it's not a "deal-breaker" if he decides against it.
[–]angel925913 points4 points5 points 11 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
me and my now ex were together 6 1/2 years and have two kids and one on the way we were never married but two years ago we signed a custody agreement, I will be going for child support for all soon to be 3 kids.
Yup, if I ever have kids this is how I'm doing it.
Non-Marital cohabitation agreement, No joint accounts, and custody agreement.
Given things didn't work out, I would be fine paying child support, and helping her out if she needs it for a little while.
[–]angel92591-1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
also we never got joint accounts even though he had suggested it at one point.
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
I have been living with my boyfriend for over 8 years, and we don't have plans to get married. Would I like to get married? Of course, but i don't think it's necessary. I can understand why a guy wouldn't want to risk losing half of his stuff. This is definitely something you would have to agree on though. I think most women would want to be married.
[–]rpMwafrika0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
I hope you don't mind me asking. Do you have kids together or planning to have kids?
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
No kids yet, but possibly some day. We are both 28, so time is ticking.
Would you have kids before getting married?
Absolutely. Here's the thing. My boyfriend doesn't want to get married because there's basically nothing in it for men, and men get screwed over in divorces. I don't blame him at all for noping the fuck out when it comes to marriage. I know I wouldn't screw him over if divorce happened, but he has no way of knowing that. Why risk it? People change.
We live together and we are committed. I would absolutely get married if he wanted, but he is adamant that he is not interested. So what choices do I have in this case? Well, I can give him an ultimatum. A "marry me or I'm leaving" kind of thing. Or I can nag and pester him until he relents and pops the question just to make me shut up. OR, I can just shut up and thank my lucky stars that he is committed to me, and be happy without a legal contract. I choose to be happy without it. I'm not entitled to a fairy princess wedding just because I'm a chick.
[–]my-redpillthrowaway-1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Maybe you can have a wedding ceremony without legally getting married?
[–]FleetingWishEndorsed Contributor-1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I think most women want to be married. Let's face it, it's in their best interests since marriage (and even divorce) favors them. There's a huge stigma attached to women who "can't get their boyfriend to marry them". It's like... There must be something wrong with them personally if the boyfriend won't commit.
However, there are some women who are willing to accept that though it might be a good arrangement for her, it's not such a good deal for him, and understand it's not about her. She can accept that marriage is not beneficial to him, and be willing to forgo it to protect him (rather than wanting it to protect herself). Really all the things she wants from a marriage can be had without marriage... Except financial protection. I.e if there is a divorce she doesn't have to worry about money. So... It's her safety at the expense of his.
Tldr: Would I say "yes" if he proposed? In a heart beat. I have much to gain from it and little to lose. Will he? No. But, if having a relationship with him is what I want, then I can have that without marriage. I can even have a "secure" relationship without marriage.
A word of warning though, by the same logic marriage is a bad deal, kids are similarly. She can take your money by divorce, and she can take your kids when she decides she doesn't like you anymore.
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[–]Nynx1220 points21 points22 points (18 children) | Copy Link
[–]proprioceptor7 points8 points9 points (17 children) | Copy Link
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