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Confused about punishment and DEER

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December 28, 2018
12 upvotes

Took pill 3 years ago. Went Rambo. Divorced.

Spun plates. N count over 100. (Got a good feel for how women really are through this.) Now recently in an LTR

With plates, if I was displeased with their actions, I’d remove my attention, go silent for a few days or more. Make them make the first move to reconnect.

But that’s partly impractical in an LTR because we interact daily and sometimes need to for logistics.

She’s out of town for two weeks visiting family. So I’m basically in a forced long distance relationship for two weeks. No sex. I’m also no fap.

We were texting. She didn’t do something I asked. So I wanted to remove my attention because she wasn’t pleasing me. I told her I was done talking with her for the day. She gets cunty, so I make it two. She texts me after several hours then texts multiple times all night and into the next day.

First clear mistake is, I broke frame and didn’t fulfill the two days. She baited me in. I held frame. But after it seemed like she got the point, I started chatting. I pulled off 36 hours or so. I rationalized it at the time, but now see how big of a mistake it was.

Second mistake, when I broke the two days I DEER’d. Essentially explaining punishment. Major back and forth. Held frame. But it mostly ended in a stalemate.

Overall, I def still have the frame, but lost significant ground through this situation. She’s texting me all day. Flirty, nudes etc. So all is fine. But I def don’t want to see this happen again.

This is new territory for me.

So I’m getting the distinct impression that I’m coming off like a woman “you didn’t make me feel good, so now I’m not talking to you”

But I know I did it right with plates. I just don’t get how you do it in something deeper.

Do you punish at all? I thought I read something about that in an LTR, but it was a long time ago, I’m fuzzy.

If they are like children and I explain my punishments to my kids, don’t I explain it with an LTR? Or is that DEER’ing?

Were my only mistakes in this situation DEER’ing and frame break?


Post Information
Title Confused about punishment and DEER
Author alpha-zach
Upvotes 12
Comments 79
Date 28 December 2018 02:48 PM UTC (1 year ago)
Subreddit askMRP
Link https://theredarchive.com/post/203715
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/askMRP/comments/aaawd9/confused_about_punishment_and_deer/
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Red Pill terms found in post:
DEERalphaframenofaplong term relationshipLDRplaten count
Comments

[–]MrChad_ThundercockBig Red Machine14 points15 points  (1 child) | Copy

Yep. Sound like a woman.

“She didn’t do something I asked”

Then take her over your knee and spank that ass. You sound way too serious.

“But I def don’t want to see this happen again.”

Then why get into a LTR then? Women act out out times. Part of the Game. Your job to lead and keep them in line.

[–]alpha-zach[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Totally agree.

I have yet to figure out how to describe it, but for me, sex is the great equalizer. Whenever a woman gets shitty and power hungry, all I have to do is bang her, and it seems to fix everything. I call it fucking the crazy out of them.

Currently, we are apart because she is out of town. So I can’t bang the crazy out of her. But bend her over and spank her would def be my go to if this all happened together.

[–]Two_kids_in_a_coat9 points10 points  (5 children) | Copy

You fucked up twice. You don’t “punish” and then DEERing on punishment was retarded.

Punishment is what butt hurt pussies and bitches do. You’re a man that doesn’t have time for this shit. Big difference. Then explaining that your hurt so you’re enacting revenge and punishing her in retaliation is childish. You call her out on bullshit right away if it’s bad, if it’s annoying you do stuff that doesn’t annoy you until she comes around.

[–]alpha-zach[S] 0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy

Agreed. Help me understand the difference between punishing kids and punishing an LTR.

Also, call her out on her bullshit..what would that have looked like here, if applicable.

[–]Two_kids_in_a_coat4 points5 points  (3 children) | Copy

You don’t punish an LTR. You find something better to attend to. Her learning a lesson is a byproduct not the goal. The goal is to make the best use of your time and energy. If you’re not enjoying her then find something else to enjoy.

Not sure what she did and it probably isn’t work calling her out but say you’re out in public and she insulted you, you pull her aside and tell her that you don’t tolerate your girl acting like that. Generally if you call her out on something it’s do or die, basically “do it again and you’ll be replaced” without actually saying that.

[–]alpha-zach[S] 2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy

Thank you. Literally did this with every single plate to perfection. Lost it all once I committed. And in only a couple months.

Blue pill me came back. I negotiated a covert contract. I give commitment, you stop making me run game, and stay the way you’ve always been. But they are what they are. I’ll have to run game forever. And in an LTR it’s in hard mode.

——The goal is to make the best use of your time and energy. If you’re not enjoying her then find something else to enjoy.

Forming her into what I wanted became the goal. I’m deluding myself thinking anything else happened. And my activities were based around proving to her I was worth it. I lifted to get bigger for her, my missions were to impress her, etc.

I’m gonna make a total reset. Bit lost on how to do that in this moment. But I’ll figure it out.

I deeply appreciate everyone here and the insight you’ve given.

[–]Kpwn882 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy

I’ll have to run game forever.

Bingo

And in an LTR it's in hard mode.

At a certain point, the training wheels come off and you stop busting your ass. We are creatures of habit. Make gaming her a habit and it will become second nature at some point.

[–]alpha-zach[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I see that. Appreciate the helpful info.

[–]red-sfpplusHard Core Red5 points6 points  (17 children) | Copy

All you need to know is clearly written in your third paragraph.

[–]alpha-zach[S] 1 point2 points  (15 children) | Copy

I don’t fully understand what you are saying, but I get the drift. Between you and other comments, it’s solidifying my gut feeling that I’m being too overt.

I got too close and connected, too friendly because she was so damn submissive for so long. But she got my commitment, my greatest asset and now she thinks she can make a power grab to “fix” me.

[–]BostonBrakeJob3 points4 points  (14 children) | Copy

Re-read your 3rd paragraph. Then, take your LTR off the pedistal, wipe the snow off her, and take an objective look at how you handled your not-so-special situation (ultimatum = "I'm not talking to you for 2 days because boo-fucking-who...") vs. how it should've been handled (I'm not filling in this blank for you...but to get you started, overtly stating a time frame was fucking retarded.)

[–]alpha-zach[S] 3 points4 points  (13 children) | Copy

Agreed. Total ultimatum. So dumb.

Yes. Overt was dumb.

I’m learning.

So I’ll take a stab at how it should’ve been handled. She doesn’t do what I ask. So go lift. Let her message me several times before responding. Stay reserved in responses until she does something that I like and I reward her with laughter or attention or a compliment.

[–]BostonBrakeJob2 points3 points  (12 children) | Copy

Other than...

Let her message me several times before responding.

...yeah, pretty much. But none of it really means shit without a mental shift on your part. 1 message (barring attempts to keep the shit show going) on her part should be all it takes, really. Let me guess, the thing you asked her to do was send some nudes?

Really doesn't matter what you asked though, the fact you feel the need to "punish" the noncompliance shows a total lack of OI.

It's no different bc she's been upgraded to LTR either. I can't tell you how many times I've removed my presence from my wife, to the point she's said it's like I'm looking at a stranger when I'm around her, and still communicate the logistics of our day to day lives with the kids, dinner, ect. It makes no difference whether she's a plate, LTR, or your wife. Get over that mental block.

[–]alpha-zach[S] 0 points1 point  (11 children) | Copy

It wasn’t nudes. But that would’ve done the trick.

Def mental block on the idea of not being around for significant periods and looking like a stranger. Not looking forward to embracing that, but it is what it is.

[–]BostonBrakeJob1 point2 points  (10 children) | Copy

It's not thee way, man...it's just my way. That could change.

It's worth asking yourself why you're not looking forward to embracing those things though.

[–]alpha-zach[S] 2 points3 points  (4 children) | Copy

A thought I think you deserve to hear.

As a product of you and others, I’ve realized something important.

Before, didn’t see how I could effectively implement attention removal in an LTR. But now I realize, that it’s just as easy as with plates. The context of the relationship makes it so.

Whereas with plates, it would take days or a week for them to feel the attention removal. (And I couldn’t put together how I could do that in an LTR without it appearing butthurt and like punishment or passive aggressive.) I now realize that everything is amplified the deeper the relationship goes. Plates had their own stuff going on and didn’t want to bother me or appear needy until they couldn’t stand it anymore or thought they were being replaced. But the closer a relationship gets, the sooner they feel this emotion, the sooner they will engage and the sooner they will behave in the desired way.

I suppose as the years pack onto a marriage the time elongates a bit because they feel secure in the relationship. But even then, the removal isn’t complete separation for days, it’s more aloof around the house or a general demeanor of disengagement.

[–]BostonBrakeJob2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy

it’s more aloof around the house or a general demeanor of disengagement.

Bingo! And don't lose the reset button.

[–]alpha-zach[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

Reset button?

[–]alpha-zach[S] 1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy

Because I’m red pilled and OI in ways that concern meaningless women(or women I find meaningless.) Plates, ONS, etc.

But still blue pill in women that “should” have meaning in my life(LTR and beyond). That “should” has some sort of deeply ingrained learned and trained behavior that I picked up from being beta bob, from mom, or all the shitty advice I internalized from asking women what women want for the first 30 years of my life.

The unplugging never ends.

[–]Kpwn880 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy

But still blue pill in women that “should” have meaning in my life

A woman having meaning in your life isn't blue pilled per se. It's what the meaning is that will determine that.

My wife is a great mother to my kids, and an excellent first mate. She is an amazing fuck, and a good cook. She supports my vision, and that gives her meaning.

Should she lose those qualities, she would lose meaning in my life. See where this is going?

[–]alpha-zach[S] 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy

Didn’t mean to imply that women shouldn’t have meaning. The emphasis was on me.

I am acting blue pill when a woman starts to mean something to me.

[–]wtg29890 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

So silent treatment? That seems more passive aggressive

[–]robertwservice19746 points7 points  (23 children) | Copy

A few of your mistakes:

  • There is a difference between punishment and not rewarding bad behavior. (I recently learned this lesson.) Nice Guys punish and use punishment to manipulate.
  • Your girl understands what silence means. Instead of explaining why you went silent, you should have rewarded her good behavior when she reached out to you.
  • You made your point, she got your point, but you decided to gild the lily. Then, because you decided to rub her nose in it, your girl decided to punish you by getting you to DEER. Tit for tat. She "won" that "major back and forth" exchange, felt guilty, and decided to send you a few make-up texts.
  • Instead of giving her an explicit 24-hour time out (that you explicitly extended to 48 hours) and explaining it, you should have demonstrated by removing your time and attention. Acta non verba, in other words.
  • If you have to tell us that you "def still have the frame," you probably don't and never did.

[–]IRunYourRiver1 point2 points  (21 children) | Copy

Nice Guys punish and use punishment to manipulate.

Can you elaborate on this?

[–]BostonBrakeJob5 points6 points  (7 children) | Copy

A man removes time and attention (presence) simply because someone isn't acting in a way that he allows in his life. He has better things, and people, to be doing with his time.

Nice guys do it with intent and the expectation to change another person's behavior. Not because he has the self respect to remove himself from the situation.

[–]IRunYourRiver2 points3 points  (5 children) | Copy

I find this a little confusing. In Saving a Low Sex Marriage (basically the Dread handbook as I understand it) there is a lot of talk about operant conditioning and withholding time and attention with the express intent of causing a change in behavior. I agree that it smacks of a grand covert contract and BPP sort of lost me on that part.

I will think about this some more. For a lot of us newbies, getting the spotlight off of your wife and back on yourself is harder than it sounds.

[–]mindfulbutgutlessRed Beret1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy

there is a lot of talk about operant conditioning and withholding time and attention with the express intent of causing a change in behavior.

You are removing the reward that is your time and attention; not removing your time and attention as punishment. You only get the prize if you comply with the rules of the game. Be the prize. It is more mindset than actual action. Besides, if I'm not mistaken, BPP states that the removal of time and attention (dread level 4) should be used mostly for repeat sexual denials

[–]Kpwn881 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

You are removing the reward that is your time and attention; not removing your time and attention as punishment. You only get the prize if you comply with the rules of the game.

This is touched on in WOTSM. Masculine improves from negative reinforcement(stop being a faggot) while feminine improves through positive reinforcement(wow all those squats make your ass look great, keep it up)

When you use negative reinforcement on a woman, 9 times out of 10 she will double down because she knows she found a chink in your armor.

[–]wkndatbernardus1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Awesome comment right here.

[–]BostonBrakeJob0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Well said.

the removal of time and attention (dread level 4) should be used mostly for repeat sexual denials

Works great to get the message across that you won't be her punching bag, too.

[–]BluepillProfessorMod / Red Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

That is true in the beginning in turning around a low sex marriage because otherwise you end up ignoring her completely. When establishing your frame on the relationship early I think removing time and attention can be effective.

[–]alpha-zach[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Good god. I need to reread NMMNG. I’ve forgotten all of this. I def did it with intent and expectation.

[–]robertwservice19742 points3 points  (10 children) | Copy

Nice Guys believe that they need to manipulate to get their needs met; they use punishment as a means of attempting to condition others to meet their needs.

In OP's case, he had a need (having her do something he asked) that was not met, so he attempted to use punishment to condition her future behavior (i.e., meet his future needs).

Nice Guys also have a scarcity mindset and don't trust that their future needs will be met. OP is afraid that, if his girl isn't appropriately conditioned to do what he asks, she will not meet his needs in the future.

[–]alpha-zach[S] 1 point2 points  (8 children) | Copy

So I’m starting to get this LTR picture better.

—-In OP's case, he had a need (having her do something he asked) that was not met, so he attempted to use punishment to condition her future behavior (i.e., meet his future needs).

Spot on. How else do you form her into the the woman you want without punishment to condition future behavior? I get the general consensus is withdrawal but that’s arguably punishment also. I think I’m just not getting to nuances of some of these words. Is it more indirect punishment? Indirect being withdrawal. Than overt? Overt being stated ultimatum of “I’m not talking for 2 days”

I def concerned about her needing to meet these needs. So scarcity. I’m not concerned that I couldn’t find another woman tomorrow. But assuming I want to commit to monogamy, have kids, don’t want a divorce and not be a liar(and cheat on her), how else do you do this? I have a captain mentality, not keep her around but plates other girls mentality.

[–]robertwservice19749 points10 points  (1 child) | Copy

I don't have an easy answer for you, except to say that you need to focus on yourself. Your focus clearly is on her behavior, which puts you squarely in her frame. You're measuring your success or failure based on whether you're able to influence her behavior.

The elephant in the room is that you didn't take the time to unfuck yourself during your first marriage and went on to a successful life spinning plates, so you haven't had to do the hard work.

By hard work, I mean addressing your own bullshit through reading, lifting and a lot of introspection. It takes time and effort. That's why you're not getting the nuances right now. Hell, I'm almost a year in and I'm not even close to getting all the nuances the flaired men are putting out there.

You seem to be looking to "form her into the woman you want" using "red pill ways." It doesn't work that way. You re-form yourself and she follows (or doesn't). The focus should be on you and your behavior, not her and her behavior.

Case in point: Why do you feel the need to form this woman into something? I suggest you re-read NMMNG and focus on why a Nice Guy might want to control another person. If you think what you read applies to you, work on changing that aspect of yourself.

[–]alpha-zach[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Accurate. Accurate. Accurate. Agreed.

Rereading nmmng today.

[–]Reject4444 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy

I get the general consensus is withdrawal but that’s arguably punishment also. I think I’m just not getting to nuances of some of these words. Is it more indirect punishment? Indirect being withdrawal. Than overt? Overt being stated ultimatum of “I’m not talking for 2 days”

No, it's not "punishment," it's removal of a reward. You're not thinking of yourself as The Prize. If you're the awesome Captain she needs in her life, then you choosing to give her your time and attention is her reward for "good behavior" (that doesn't mean she obeys your every command like a slave; it means she acts in a generally respectful and appropriate manner to you). If she's not acting appropriately, you remove that reward and withdraw some of your time and attention because you have better things to spend that time and attention on than somebody who does respect you (you DO have other things to do, right?). It's not giving her the "silent treatment" like a bitchy teenage girl whose friend just stole her crush away, it's prioritizing how you spend your time and energy on only things that are worthy of it. She can choose to behave accordingly or you can spend your time on more worthy endeavors; you can't "make" her do anything.

That's the theory. Here, though, I think you messed up by first acting as if her failure to meet your request constituted "bad behavior" that warranted your withdrawal, then going too far in that withdrawal, then explaining to her what you were doing, and then proving that you weren't prepared to follow through on what you had explained when she called your bluff. That's all independent of your misunderstanding of the theory behind withdrawal.

[–]alpha-zach[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Accurate. Someone recommended a post that drew a distinction between needs(boundaries) and wants. I’m drawing that distinction now.

In this case I had a want and perceived it to be a need. I asked her to do something she has naturally done over and over in the past out of her desire to please me. I had a relapse of neediness in that moment and definitely relied on her to fill that void.

I have lots of “better things to do” but I’m visiting family in another state and bored af. I don’t have things to do here. And I don’t have the things I should have brought, books to read, etc. So she became the center of my world.

It’s becoming clear now.

[–]weakandsensitive1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy

Punishment only works if she gives a shit.

I have a captain mentality

No, you don't.

You: Show me your boobies.
Her: No. XYZ reasons.
You. I'm sure you can figure it out.
Her: I don't want to.
You. Okay.

<fin>

[–]alpha-zach[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Appreciate the input. I should’ve said I aspire to a captain mentality. I see that as being different from going to later dread levels to get her in line.

[–]weakandsensitive0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Captain

See this scene from Pirates of the Caribbean. Dude is going places whether the world cares or not.

[–]Kpwn881 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

How else do you form her into the the woman you want without punishment to condition future behavior?

Positive reinforcement aka rewarding good behavior. Women have fragile egos, they soak up praise like it's going out of style.

[–]BigGayGainz0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Nice guys are nice because they are afraid, they lie, they make covert contracts, they give up themselves out of fear. Why, because they are out of options. When you have OI and options it frees you. When your ltr decides to be no fun but strangers are being nicer to you it makes it all crystal clear. When you smell a fart walk away, plenty of fresh air.

[–]BigGayGainz0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Nice guys are nice because they are afraid, they lie, they make covert contracts, they give up themselves out of fear. Why, because they are out of options. When you have OI and options it frees you. When your ltr decides to be no fun but strangers are being nicer to you it makes it all crystal clear. When you smell a fart walk away, plenty of fresh air.

[–]alpha-zach[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Thank you for the detailed analysis and explanation.

Your first point hit the nail on the head for where I’ve been. I was back in nice guy mode and had covert contracts. I prob need to sit down and write out all the covert contracts I have and then burn them. I’ve definitely created a lot. I’ve embraced silence lately when I’m displeased. But I’ve mostly just used that time to reinforce my convert contracts. It hasn’t come out yet verbally but it’s definitely showing in my actions.

Glad you guys are here to help take me back to the basics that I’ve forgotten. I was probably on track for another Rambo.

To your third point, she communicated this in woman language by saying something that reminded me of sweeping problems under the rug.

I think my tendency to face problems head on and work them out is rooted in my left over blue pill. There’s gotta be a red pill way of doing this. I just can’t grasp how.

4th point. Dead on. I just haven’t grasped how to do this. I’m guessing instead of silent punishment with a huffy attitude, it’s more of a stoic attitude. Due to circumstances(with the distance) and my general demeanor, she prob thought I was in stoic mode. But in reality I was definitely huffy.

To your last point, understandable analysis. I’ve def said the same to other people when they where a badge of “I have the frame.” Frame is fluid. I don’t have it to the degree, I’d like. I did at one time. But def lost ground. I’m not gonna go into a whole explanation of why I have it.

I’m resetting somethings to get back to where I was. Mostly just focus on self and silence while I recalibrate.

[–]Redpillbrigade171 point2 points  (10 children) | Copy

What are you doing getting monogamous again?

That is part of the cause for your frustration and getting butt hurt over texts.

[–]alpha-zach[S] 1 point2 points  (7 children) | Copy

I’m tired of approaching women. Tired of managing plates. Tired of seeing them drop.

I don’t want lots of sex with lots of women anymore. I want to manage my sexual side, always having an outlet, so that I can focus on my more important missions in life. Money, power, prob some more kids.

[–]Redpillbrigade172 points3 points  (4 children) | Copy

Yeah. Sounds familiar. But careful when you want to settle down again you will succumb back to old habits and old Nice guy you will come back with a vengeance. Plus now that you decide for some reason it’s a good idea to be monogamous, you’ll have no options for real dread.

It’s your expectations that are the problem. “Punishing” is a dick angry ass hole Rambo move. You know it.

There was a good post a few days ago with distinction between boundaries and desires. Go read that (again).

[–]alpha-zach[S] 1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy

Thank you. I see myself def going to old nice guy habits, but knowing how things could be and now Rambo is coming back. There’s no way I’m getting back into frameless monogamy and a dead bedroom. I’d rather just make enough money and use hookers the rest of my life.

The article you are referring to, I didn’t read it. What should I search for?

[–]Redpillbrigade170 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

It was actually top comment on the Wife going out Socializing post, from 15 days ago. Comment was by u/inchargeman.

[–]alpha-zach[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I’ll look it up. Thank you.

[–]alpha-zach[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Holy shit. That was good.

[–]WesternhagenWinner1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

I’m tired of approaching women. Tired of managing plates. Tired of seeing them drop.

I don’t want lots of sex with lots of women anymore. I want to manage my sexual side, always having an outlet, so that I can focus on my more important missions in life.

Translation: "I am lazy and sick of bearing the burden of performance".

Wanting to relax and have guaranteed sex is exactly how you wound up in a betabucks sexless marriage.

8 months ago you posted that you were still feeling wrecked by your divorce and were thinking about going into monk mode. It seems rather doubtful that in the intervening time you could have spun so many plates that you are burned out on plate-spinning. And how long could this "LTR" have lasted after you stopped the plate spinning? A few months? What seems more likely is that you never left your old beta mentality, and you quickly developed one-itis for the first woman who was nice to you. Pretty much the classic rebound relationship. Now you are wondering why you are demonstrating the same bad habits with this LTR that you did with your ex-wife. The answer is, you haven't really done the work and built a new man.

[–]alpha-zach[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

——Wanting to relax and have guaranteed sex is exactly how you wound up in a betabucks sexless marriage.

Exactly. Trying to get rid of this mentality.

——8 months ago you posted that you were still feeling wrecked by your divorce and were thinking about going into monk mode.

Accurate. I did post that. Seems like longer than 8 months, but I believe you. I had my good days and bad days. That post was a bad day. I invested a lot in the marriage. I wasn’t a fan of losing it.

——It seems rather doubtful that in the intervening time you could have spun so many plates that you are burned out on plate-spinning.

Fair assessment. But it is what it is. I spent every waking hour(I don’t depend on work for money, so I have lots of discretionary time) on figuring out the game with uncommitted women, I’m satisfied and bored by it. I found someone that I’m satisfied with and have semi-vetted, so I’m moving that forward. It wouldn’t surprise me if this was a trial run that I have to fuck up before I find a better LTR.

——And how long could this "LTR" have lasted after you stopped the plate spinning? A few months?

I think I already said somewhere it’s only taken a few months for me to relapse into blue pill ways.

—-What seems more likely is that you never left your old beta mentality, and you quickly developed one-itis for the first woman who was nice to you. Pretty much the classic rebound relationship. Now you are wondering why you are demonstrating the same bad habits with this LTR that you did with your ex-wife. The answer is, you haven't really done the work and built a new man.

Again I can see why you’d come to this conclusion, but it’s wrong. There is zero oneitis. As we get closer, I’m seeing things I don’t like and having to reassess daily between dropping her and going back to plate spinning or sticking it out to see if she will change and catch up to me.

Part of today’s post came from not realizing how much I’ve slipped into blue pill ways simply by engaging in commitment. The other part came from not seeing her change quick enough which reminds me of my Rambo days. I wasn’t aware of the 6 months to catch up rule until it was too late(in my marriage).

I know what this new girl she can be, I’m just not being patient enough with her. She’s already adapted and changed in many big ways, and she’s definitely changing daily. But I have to let her do that. I can’t force feed it.

[–]red-sfpplusHard Core Red1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

No him being a faggot is. Not being monogamous.

Don’t see me on here bitching about my GF do you?

OP needs to stop being a bitch.

[–]alpha-zach[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Def being faggy. Working on it.

[–]JudgeDoom691 point2 points  (9 children) | Copy

when I broke the two days I DEER’d. Essentially explaining punishment

This is where you went wrong. Withdrawing contact will be a very weak tool for you going forward, because she will always see through it as an attempt to manipulate her.

N count over 100

That's over 30 different women per year for three years. Unbelievable.

[–]UEMcGillI am become McGill, Destroyer of Blue Pill2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy

He went wrong telling her he was mad and telling her she was in time out. The right way is to go radio silent with no explanation. Bonus if you can get tagged in a pic in Vegas or another form of debauchery.

[–]BostonBrakeJob0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Bonus if you can get tagged in a pic in Vegas or another form of debauchery.

Petty, but lol!

[–]alpha-zach[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Agreed. No more DEER’ing. I’m going to have it tattooed to the inside of my eyelids.

[–]framelessglasses1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy

over 30 different women per year for three years. Unbelievable.

I've known some validation seeking man-whores that had no problem doing this. It's not a credit to his manhood, just his PUA game. PUA and telemarketing have a lot in common......numbers, script and effort.

Edit: I'ma validation seeking man-whore.

[–]alpha-zach[S] 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy

Accurate.

Edit: On second thought, Partially accurate.

It’s not a credit to my manhood. It is PUA game. It was about numbers and good tactics.

But that’s not to say, I haven’t improved on manhood. PUA and game is fake it til you make it imo. Even most of red pill rules are fake it til you make it or internalize.

I don’t at all believe I’ve made it. Hence, asking for help. But I do need either a refresher or more things to fake and make. Again, hence asking for help.

[–]framelessglasses1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy

It's a long trip from validation seeking man-whore, to a man centered on his own mission. There is no doubt from your words, that you have much farther to go than you realize.

Once you move from asking for help here, and blindly accepting the good, and bad, advice of others here,....to digging it out on your own, and, posting your progress, or lack thereof, on the "Own Your Shit" plan....then and only then; do you have a snowballs chance in hell of becoming the man that will stop your personal roller derby hell.

Failing your own needs for progress, I pity the hapless women that fall in your path, BUT, your greatest failing will be to yourself, and, your own personal hell of a circular path to nowhere, aka your roller derby.

[–]alpha-zach[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Ok...not really sure what to do with this

[–]framelessglasses0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

With hard work, you will.

[–]alpha-zach[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Withdraw being a weak tool going forward. Agreed. It’ll be an uphill battle to regain this tool. I think mentally, I’m just going to embrace that I just don’t want to talk to her when she’s not pleasing. No more deer’ing. When she accuses me of it, just stay silent and focus on withdrawal. Any other thoughts would be appreciated.

N-count. It’s not as impressive as it sounds. I don’t have a 9-5 job. I have my life set up in a way where I largely don’t work unless I want to. So during the last 2 years I was able to focus on lifting, tinder, and gaming women every night. On multiple occasions, I’d have two dates in a night. If I had a regular 9-5 this would be impossible. Also a significant portion were ONS’s. 10-15 were plates depending on how loose you get with calling someone a plate.

[–]SeamusAwl[🍰] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Do you punish at all? I thought I read something about that in an LTR, but it was a long time ago, I’m fuzzy.

If I am sexting my wife and I ask her to do something over the phone, and she won't. I do not punish her for that because that is just being an emotional little bitch. However, if my wife does something disrespectful. Then there will be "punishment." Which usually is me going off to do something else. I am fortunate in that she is usually very respectful and works hard for the relationship. Me on the other hand, i am just an asshole some of the time.

[–]alpha-zach[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

That makes sense.

I know with plates I would do what you said. But for some reason, I thought that an LTR changed some of that. Left over blue pill. God I hate this shit.

[–]screechhaterRed Beret0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Stats ? You even lift ?

What’s up with “not doing something” while away for two weeks ?

Is this an LTR or control game ?

Ultimatums place you at the mercy of who you inflict it upon.

Third paragraph ..... read thy words until blood oozes from your eyes.

Oneitis causes DEERing. Fear of losing her does the same

[–]alpha-zach[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Stats. I don’t have any one rep max numbers because I don’t have a spotter.

But my workouts are Bench 145. 3x5. I’m guessing 180-190 max Incline bench 135. 3x5 Deadlifts 150. 3x5. Obviously I’m capable of more, but I’ve had back issues in the past so I don’t want to get crazy here Barbell curl. 90 3x5 Tricep press. 60. 3x5. My muscles are capable of more but I have a tendon in my elbow that gets strained and needs to strengthen Squats. 100 3x5. Something about my leg muscles is weird and I strain or pull my hams easily while doing squats. So I’ve had to work this number up really slowly. Plus when I started I skipped leg day a lot.

Not doing something while two weeks away was a mistake I didn’t foresee. Usually I fish a lot but the tide has made that difficult because it it’s either super early or dark at night, a combination of short days of winter and bad timing. So I ended up sitting around a lot. After posting here, I downloaded some books and got to reading.

Not sure what you mean by control game.

Ultimatum bad. I didn’t realize I was doing that at the time.

Third paragraph. Check.

I didn’t deer in a begging, please understand me way. It was her bombarding me with questions and me not stfu. It was a minimal calculated explanation, but too much at best(this is what you did, I didn’t like it for xyz reasons, here’s what I did in response). At worst, it was delivered via text and she may have perceived it as whiny, please understand my logic.

She didn’t seem to have a problem with the explaining. But it just created this downward spiral into a disrespectful argument because she wanted to win at all costs. Im a pretty damn good debater(both logical and Machiavellian tactics) and always beat her at her game, but this one didn’t work because I opened up the overt punishment door. I didn’t have a chance.

[–]BluepillProfessorMod / Red Beret0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy

I am always amazed to watch the betification effect in real.time. Even when we know what to do evolution wins.

[–]alpha-zach[S] 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy

Trying to understand what you are saying. But can’t wrap my mind around a positive outcome.

My only thoughts are you are either saying I was born beta and will die beta(due to genes/evolution), or saying that due to evolution women will always beta-tize you.

Neither seems to align with TRP mentality or purpose; I cant imagine I’m understanding you correctly.

[–]BluepillProfessorMod / Red Beret1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy

Sorry for the long delay answering. I was on vacation.

Betas don't get 100+ n counts so the first option is clearly not what I meant. Women always beta-tize men. It is what they do.

She didn’t do something I asked. So I wanted to remove my attention because she wasn’t pleasing me. I told her I was done talking with her for the day. She gets cunty, so I make it two.

Seems harsh and spergy to me- but your the Alpha so it probably works like a charm. I think you walking it back a bit does not 'lose you' much ground at all. You made a mistake and corrected it. I would have made it more open and even a near apology ("I overreacted and will do better" or some such) but the proof is in the nude pic pudding. You have got this.

[–]alpha-zach[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Thank you. I get it now.

I agree. It was too much. I dialed it back and reset. Things are going better than ever now. She hangs on my every word and is desperate for my attention.

But it really is amazing how women will always try to beta-tize their man.

So I guess the logic goes that the women who beta’d their man had more protection and got more genes passed along?

I half wonder if men evolved to get beta’d as well. The men who protected their children by sticking around had more developed and successful children? Of course the flip is the alpha who didn’t commit, had more children with more women. But one could assume these children had less development(absent father) and a lower chance of future success and procreation. Interesting to think about.

[–]BluepillProfessorMod / Red Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I half wonder if men evolved to get beta’d as well.

Nailed it. It's the Red Queen all the way down the deck.

[–]adeptintact0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

I think some of you are getting mixed up with semantics. In operant conditioning, a negative punishment is removing a reward to decrease bad behaviors. So it is correctly stated as punishing when removing a reward.

I am a strong support of using this in an LTR. Rewarding good behavior by giving attention, and giving negative punishment by withdrawing and ignoring her when she does stuff you don't like. You don't call her out on something she did unless she does something really wrong. If you follow this, she will subconsciously act and treat you much better.

[–]alpha-zach[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning#/media/File%3AOperant_conditioning_diagram.png

This confuses me.

What you said is correct. But does this mean we leave out positive punishment and negative reinforcement? Why?

For the simple sake of red pill theory, I can’t help but think we leave these elements out because of a lack of frame. Maybe it’s social, the matriarchy has attained enough power and feminism so prevalent that this tool is lost to us. Or maybe, advanced red pillers still lack enough frame to employ these.

Certainly it’s these elements that we describe as Rambo type actions, and it’s these elements that land men in jail when the hamster convinced her he was abusive.

Or is it based in the needs and wants? Does it smack of slavery if we use positive punishment and negative reinforcement when used for wants but not needs? Therefore we use noxious stimulus(what we are calling punishment here) for boundaries/needs which are deal breaker activities and appetitive stimulus(what we are calling rewards) for wants/desired behavior but not deal breakers.

And lastly, does/should this extend to children? Does it extend across all free agents in life more effectively? Pets?



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