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March 5, 2018

First of all, I want to give honest kudos to all the guys within this community doing the hard yards in the trenches and actively learning and working on their marriages. It is incredibly impressive. I am not married, but I was, and have been divorced for a decade. I am 45 years old, and only now trying to make myself my 'Mental point of origin'. I will admit that this is an incredibly difficult process for someone from a shockingly BP upbringing.

I have one simple question: How do you 'trust' your woman when there is literally no incentive for people to be trustworthy in modern society?

I understand that the SMP is amoral, and trust could be viewed ( or is) morality, I don't know, but is Is it simply a matter of 'Well, I don't" full stop, or that you simply mitigate risk where you can through legal means and RP awareness?

I genuinely would like some honest feedback on this, as it seems to me that if you can't trust people, you end up seeing MGTOW as a viable option, and removing yourself from long term relationships altogether. Thanks.

Post Information
Title Trust.
Author nzdrummer
Upvotes 6
Comments 47
Date 05 March 2018 03:01 AM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit askMRP
Original Link
Similar Posts

Red Pill terms found in post:
long term relationshipMGTOW

[–]ReddJiveRed Beret19 points20 points  (18 children) | Copy

Trust is a weapon.

I've never liked the trust but verify mantra. Not in relationships. It smacks too much of me wasting my time to verify what is being told to me. I would then live in someone else's frame until I can verify what they are telling me. It's also a slippery slope of how much do I verify? Do I get a PI? GPS trackers? What? Furthermore, I have come to see trust as a weapon. Think about it. Someone says they don't trust you anymore and that you need to work towards earring that trust back. But are you ever given a check list? A set of tasks to perform to earn that trust? No.

I came to this conclusion during my journey as I would watch my shrew of a wife constantly tell me she doesn't trust me. It goes back from nearly the day we were married. I got up for work one day and she just blurts it out. The next 17 years I was and am held to a standard I never understood nor was given the rules for. When someone says they don't trust you what you get is a bevy of servant tasks and behavior controls that just keep you in your place. Yet what it's really nothing more than the other party maintaining control on you.

What's more is that you will never earn the trust back you once had or what you perceived you had. This is because trust is never really earned. It can't be. It's given. We give trust and we do it all the time. We trust strangers to do things for us without harming us. Baristas to serve coffee without pissing in it. Restaurants to serve food that isn't poisoned. This is why when trust is violated at a public level it is so horrific.
There are millions of ways we trust in small doses each day to people we've rarely met or interacted with. Just think of any number of things we do on a daily basis that rely on someone doing their job correctly. Yet in our relationships we have high standards for this trust and suddenly the script is flipped and you must earn that trust. No. Trust is given and you keep giving it until you come to the point where you can no longer. Then the relationship is dead.

Trust can also be about control. By keeping someone hungry for your trust you can make them do a lot of things. Until the day they decide they don't want your trust. Think about that. No one ever considers that part. What if I doin't want your trust?

Briffault's Law is what established the hierarchy of love. Man, Woman, Child. It's also what established the idea she is never yours, just your turn. With this concept in mind consider that acts of loyalty need to be daily. We already know what she is willing to do and her priorities. Sure one can see the dynamic as she working for your trust and keeping her on a short leash…seems to appeal right? Yet consider who works harder? The one who is earning trust or the one who has to keep verifying that trust? We already know exactly what her priorities are. Therefore, we already know exactly how far we can trust her.

Compared to loyalty. Some will say women are not loyal. They are, just not in the same way men are, remember women suck at overt communication. They are loyal...if you are Alpha enough and can demand that loyalty. Where loyalty differs from trust is that loyalty is an act. A woman can demonstrate loyalty to you by her actions. A fantastic article about Managing your bitch details this to some degree. Some will tell you to trust your women to go on a GNO after all you can go out with your friends. Why can't she? If she breaks that trust next her. Yet what does this mean? There's no boundary here or if there are you have to list them out to her. Ugh…like a father and his 16 year old daughter you have to sit her down and go over all the rules. Really? Ok yeah I get it we like the whole treat them like girls idea, but for fuck's sake who has the time to do that? Create a list of rules. Spend the time with her going over them and already establishing some level of mate guarding. Just like her dad did right? Remember the girl that used to sneak around when her parents slept? Yeah…keep going that way and see what happens.

Without the loyalty component, she can be trusted to go right to the line with another guy. Invite the validation and play around with it like a cat does a mouse....but you trust her to come home to you. You trust her to fuck you. So what where she gets her motor running. Right? Yeah. Thing is this is an act of disloyalty.

They can't completely stop a beta or even another Alpha from coming up to them. It's just a fact as Alphas our women are going to attract other guys. Yet women know exactly how to turn off orbiters and know exactly how to stop unwwanted attention. I've seen it play out this way many times. It's a simple "nope not interested". RP talks all the time about being shut down by women, so clearly the are capable of it. If she is repeatedly seeking validation from other guys it's a sign and it's an act of disloyalty. If she mentions it to you (OMG I need to tell you…) she may have found it amusing and thinks you might as well, there is a difference between her dreading you and her entertaining you….but never forget it's a shit test. Your response confirms your Alpha status. Yet there is a deeper meaning here.

Only you know where this stands on the acts of loyalty as it stakes up across the relationship. Acts of loyalty are accumulative but it only takes one act of disloyalty to remove it all. If this is systemic. She's disloyal and you know what to do.

Compare it to business. Men are in a constant state of earning profit. We want to end our fiscal year in the black. Some of us have multiple gigs/businesses going. Of course these prices will vary based on market value but go with it...

  • Sex maybe earns $10.
  • Certain sexual acts ups the margin. Varies between the man.
  • Supporting your mission in life maybe $20.
  • being supportive $35 per action
  • Doing laundry, cooking, let's say $30 for each time it is done
  • Nag? Complain, be negative all the time then the account losses money to the bank. At three times the rate it went in. (NOTE there is a difference in her coming to you for support and just plain being negative)

At the end of the quarter, fiscal year the man will take an account. If the account is in the black when he makes this assessment he will make a return on that investment. if not...then he looks for other profit centers. Why would a man continue his investment in a profit center that is losing money or a low earner? If he is putting in the time to fix it, to get it to earn again but the maybe the business has run its course. Maybe it was never really a viable idea to begin with. Maybe he is just a bad business man.

As time goes on you will look at that account and wonder why you only accept having $17 for your time and commitment, when you know someone is willing to make a bigger investment. But the man can only do this once he knows his business acumen is solid and proven.

[–]470_2_700_nm4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy

This should be posted in MRP as a topic.

[–]DanceMonkeeDanceRed Beret2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

I second this. Sidebar level material.

[–]InChargeManRed Beret0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Agree to most of this. My one differing opinion regarding "trust but verify" is that a leader should know what is going on with those under him. In the same way that I should know where my kids are at all times, I like to know what my wife is doing. Not because I don't trust her, but because part of my responsibility is her safety. Similarly, if she is cheating or getting into something else that she is hiding from me, as a good leader I should know about it, not be blissfully ignorant.

Conversely, wasting your time and energy being a part time PI and living in her frame (as you pointed out) is definitely not the way to go. If you have that much suspicion there is a lot more going on that you need to work out. I like to do a "checkup" every so often, say every 3 months, where I just do a few simple things to verify that there are no shenanigans going on. It isn't intended to be an in-depth effort, but enough where if there was anything major going on I would catch it. Particularly if there is a day that you know would be a good opportunity for cheating, you can use that as a test. i.e. you are out of town, kids are away at camp and she is ovulating.

[–]ReddJiveRed Beret1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

I like to know what my wife is doing.

This is different. There's no harm in being involved in your girl's life. being interested in HER. The problem becomes on where you are following up. \

[–]RedPill-BlackLotusRed Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I'm a terrible business man. That was a really good read and I learned something. Thanks. You made a contribution to my life, you are awesome.

[–]lololasaurus0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

This is profound. Especially the bit about chasing trust.

This should be in the sidebar.

[–]nzdrummer[S] 0 points1 point  (11 children) | Copy

Thanks for such a massively detailed response to my question. Glad it could provoke such a well thought-out response. You mentioned that your wife spent a lot of time berating you for supposedly not being trustworthy, but what if your woman was saying that you had trust issues and didn't trust her? This has happened to me in the past, and I shut it down, along with the requests for going to 'counselling', which I calmly refused to do, and then the subject was never mentioned again.

[–]ReddJiveRed Beret0 points1 point  (10 children) | Copy

There's not enough information to make a thorough analysis on that. yet I would initially call it a comfort test. The question is more about her and how you don't let her into your life or thoughts. Relates to the oak qualities an Alpha in a relationship should be giving.

yet....why don't you trust her? which links back to my essay. Why would you stay with someone you can't trust? What's her value?

Like I said there isn't enough information here for me to see what's going on.

[–]nzdrummer[S] 0 points1 point  (9 children) | Copy

Thanks for the direct response. I have a really good LTR of 3 years, but I have made some mistakes (not sleeping with other women). I'm thinking of posting another basic question, about Marriage. Where the MRP guys see it on balance: Would they do it again knowing what they know now? All the work that is required to maintain it (and yourself).

[–]ReddJiveRed Beret0 points1 point  (8 children) | Copy

Before you post this search for it. It's been asked and answered many times.

[–]nzdrummer[S] 0 points1 point  (7 children) | Copy

OK cool. Specifically though, do you think some guys enter marriages knowing that they are the beta bucks, and that their woman is probably pursuing her pluralistic mating strategy, but roll the dice anyway because she brings good things to the table (cooking, cleaning, helping with your mission etc, feminine, submissive, no nagging etc) or they are just naive cuckolds?

[–]ReddJiveRed Beret0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy

In modern society? No. They enter into marriage or LTRs for the same reason an Alpha does. Only the beta doesn't know how to either maintain what he had at the start nor how to develop what he wants.

A woman wants to be this way with an Alpha. All women are Red Pill Women, they just to be convinced of it. The dynamic of a woman seeking a beta to settle with an and alpha to fuck is both her strategy and in today's FI society...the reality. Yet it's all held in check by the presence of an Alpha with a mind for a relationship.

remember TRP is at the same time teaching us how human behavior works in regards to sexual strategy and an adaption to the modern why of life with Feminism running out of control. WE can blame this on women all we want. It comes down to the basics.

  1. Men aren't vetting properly and falling for the first pussy that gives them what they want.

  2. Men aren't improving to be the best versions of themselves.

  3. We have the relationships we deserve.

[–]nzdrummer[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

thanks. That is really helpful.

[–]nzdrummer[S] 0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy

In my experience...and that's all it is, the women I have been with treat me really well, are sweet, feminine etc, all the qualities I mentioned in my last message, never nag, minimal shit tests, some comfort tests, but...I have been surrounded by female infidelity my entire life, from mother to ex-wife, so the relationships always end with some form of cheating, whether emotional or physical. I did a call with Richard Cooper (Entrepreneurs in Cars) last year and he said that I am the common denominator here, so I'm not sure if it is confirmation bias or something I am doing wrong or not seeing in women that cause this pattern to be repeated. I have noticed that I tend to attract women that like a lot of attention...but as Rollo Tomassi says, Attention is the 'coin of the realm' for women, so AWALT, haha. Edit: Plus, social media does my head in for this kind of stuff, it's like female catnip!

[–]ReddJiveRed Beret1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy

Our first mistake is that we vet wrong. It's the first skill you need to develop. You can't change their behavior. Only they can decide to do that. At best the only thing you can do is show them what it will be like when they are no longer in your life. It's their choice either way. They can stay or go.

Most men look at hypergamy as some unseen, uncontrollable force. It's simply selfishness. The only way to control is tough love. So you remove your time/attention. sometimes permanently.

[–]nzdrummer[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

I honestly don't know how you can vet though. Women that come from stable families and have a low N count and a traditional upbringing can still be dishonest. If you are not, situationally, the most Alpha guy in their life they can still trade up, even temporarily, reeking havoc on the family. I guess you can only develop the skill through time and (often) painful experience.

[–]gettingmymojobackRed Beret10 points11 points  (2 children) | Copy

You trust her actions in the moment and nothing else.

I went through a lot of trust issues early on and went to a professional to deal with them around the same time I first swallowed the pill.

His advice was solid and is what I still follow. If things are good enjoy them for what they are, if something is going on that you don’t know about eventually you will find out, IF that happens then basically it’s her loss not yours. You move on with your life and she loses out on you (you are the prize).

If you’re constantly worrying about what she’s doing when you’re not around then you’re making her the prize.

Stop worrying about shit you can’t control, worry about you and what you are doing to be better today than you were yesterday. It’s the only thing you have control over. Period.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I really enjoyed reading this! You’re lucky to have had such a great therapist.

[–]newbynow0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Wow, this just switched my mindset.

[–]fuckmrpRed Beret4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy

How do you 'trust' your woman when there is literally no incentive for people to be trustworthy in modern society?

You are the incentive. Beyond that trust is bullshit, probability is all that matters. Past behavior usually begets future action. Most people are about as faithful as their options and everybody fucking lies. So what?

[–]JudgeDoom696 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy

You can trust her.

You can trust her to trade your ass in the moment you show weakness and she feels she can do better.

Lose your job, you can trust her branch swing to greener pastures.

Get fat and squishy, you can trust her to fuck Chad Thundercock after a few drinks.

Trust her hypergamy. Trust her solipsism.

Stay frosty.

[–]red-sfpplusHard Core Red2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy

I trust myself to be a high value man. One she doesn’t want fuck up loosing by doing something stupid, or being a bitch.

Beyond that, I trust her to handle things she has proven she can in the past.

She is never getting the code to the gun safe thou.

And she would be the second person I would call to bail me out of jail.

Likely because #1 would be there with me.

Catch my drift?

[–]TurdDoctor0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

She is never getting the code to the gun safe thou.

LMAO. I wouldn't trust her to clean my guns either.

[–]Big_Daddy_PDX1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Trust is simple. Give 100% trust to the one you’re with. When they break it, they’re finished. It’s up to them, not you.

[–]SBIIIRed Fucking Commando1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Trusting a woman is Blue Pull 101. If you could trust your woman, you wouldn't be here.

Trust yourself to become a man that no one would cheat on.

[–]InChargeManRed Beret1 point2 points  (14 children) | Copy

u/ReddJive just dropped some epic level shit. One comment to add:

Your wife (kids, house, etc) is a reflection of you. If something is amiss, that is ultimately due to your actions or inaction. If your girl is out whoring, it is due to your failure. Many who have been cheated on will disagree, but when you really distill it down it is true, even if the failure was to not NEXT her earlier in the relationship when she exhibited similar behavior.

[–]hack3ge0 points1 point  (11 children) | Copy

I completely agree that the one thing I learned is your life is a reflection of you - I'm clearly in the position I'm in because of my lack of leadership, effort and being a beta-bitch.

That being said if you feel you lost your trust in your wife do you just next her?

I just found out that there was something going on more with a coworker than she has led me to believe - she confided in a girlfriend about something that pissed her coworker off and was joking about how they are good secret keepers. There is no reason to be angry about confiding a secret unless there is something inappropriate going on so my trust just got blown out of the water.

Is there any coming back from this? If she just got tingles for another guy but never acted on it should I still work to improve myself while in my marriage or do I just next her and do my work outside of marriage? Not sure I would ever know the truth as she probably won't admit to it. To be honest after my readings here I know I can never trust another woman again anyway so that is why I'm wondering if it even matters.

Have any MRP folks found out about a wife either having an emotional or physical affair and turned things around and are happy?

[–]ReddJiveRed Beret0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy

Have any MRP folks found out about a wife either having an emotional or physical affair and turned things around and are happy?

Yes and not really. But those guys will have to answer. But I ask.

why would you want to?

[–]hack3ge0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy

Fair point - my issue is I don't know for sure what happened and I have two boys at home I have to look out for. Based on time lines there wasn't really time for her to have a physical affair (he lives outside the country) and when I nipped it in the bud and the amount they talked and how they communicated changed drastically. Its possible shit was getting close to the edge and she decided he wasn't worth the risk and broke it off when I started to tell her I thought it was inappropriate. If she just had feelings for him and didn't act on them this is salvageable with MRP I feel like.

Its also possible I'm hamstering because I don't want to kill the puppy when he didn't actually shit on the rug.

[–]ReddJiveRed Beret0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy

The puppy didn't shit on the rug. But the puppy tore all the toys up and looks at you to clean it up with a "so sorry face". So who's fault is it? the puppy or the puppy's owner for not training the puppy?

Stay or go your plan is still the same. Here you are hamstring that nothing physical really happened. But something did happen and you are trying to feel better about it.

[–]hack3ge0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy

Something happened for sure - my issue is my hard boundary is physical cheating. If its physical I next no further discussion. If it was emotional then sure I was to blame for that situation to begin with and I'll work on me and see if things can turn around.

Your post said trust but verify but the issue is I agree its too much fucking work and its completely in her frame. I feel best when I'm in DNGAF mode. I'm happy, enjoy time with my boys, enjoy my hobbies and feel productive.

Are you saying it doesn't matter either way - I work on me and if she comes around I just give her a pass?

[–]ReddJiveRed Beret0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

I never understood this idea of hard and soft boundaries. Either it is or it isn't one.

The stay plan is the same as the go plan. Once you get to there you can decide if you keep her. BUT you first have to get out of the mindset that saving the marriage = success.

[–]hack3ge0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

So I just let her keep on talking to the guy and doing whatever? Work on me and the rest of the MRP sidebar and then decide?

I guess hard boundary for me just means a next which I guess is a boundary so there is no hard or soft. If it was emotional only I can handle that and see if she will come around.

She also is expecting to go to marriage counseling in a few weeks and I haven't dropped the bomb we aren't going yet - shes not gonna be happy might just end in there lol.

[–]ReddJiveRed Beret2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

alright. I don't normally give direct advice.

So I just let her keep on talking to the guy and doing whatever?

let her? She's going to do what she wants. It's up to you to apply the consequences. If you don't she will think the emotional affair wasn't a ll that big of deal. Was it or wasn't it?

the counseling thing is/was a way to flip it on to you that YOU are the one that caused her to run towards another man. Yeah yeah we know the beta thing but she could have done a lot of other things. And she didn't.

Work on me and the rest of the MRP sidebar and then decide?

Stay plan is the same as the go plan. This never changes.

I can handle that and see if she will come around.

Yes but this is a pussy way of saying it and sounds more like you are resigning to the fact that she can stay or not. The attitude you want is one where you say...the door is there. The family is moving this way.

She also is expecting to go to marriage counseling in a few weeks and I haven't dropped the bomb we aren't going yet - shes not gonna be happy might just end in there lol.

Bad news isn't going to get better with time. You're either setting up a black knight which I endorse OR you are too chicken to do it.

Give no reasons why you aren't going. Just state that you aren't going. She will flip out and then simply tell her that you aren't the one that cheated. Then more tears yelling swearing....aaaaannnnddd remind her where the door is and what direction you are going.

You will be faking a lot once this goes down.

Arguing with a woman is like wrestling with a pig. You're dirty. She's happy.

[–]InChargeManRed Beret0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy

Let's suppose you're wife was being a sexless shrew for a while, you were getting frustrated with your situation, and some hotter woman at work started showing you more attention. Would you appreciate this attention? Would you start having "impure" thoughts? Might you even have an "emotional affair" with your work wife? I'd guess the answer is yes, and who could blame you? Now, fast-forward a year later. Your wife has turned the corner, she appreciates you, gives you lots of hot sex, treats you with respect, etc. Would the fact that you had appreciated the company of another women (not crossing physical boundaries) affect how you behave towards your wife? I would bet not. I would bet you would appreciate the new her and stay emotionally vested in your woman.

So, what is my point? Humans are animals, we do things that our evolution, hormones, subconscious, etc. tell us to do. Do I "love" my wife? Yes, as much as any man can love a woman. Do I notice when a 21 year old hottie is sauntering by in a thong on the beach? Yes, so what? The fact that she was enjoying the company of a (likely better) man should be no surprise to you, it should be motivation for you to continue to improve yourself.

Back to my point, YOU are responsible for any outcome that happens due to your action or inaction. In this case, it sounds like you were a beta loser drunk at the wheel. That is on you. If anything you should feel bad that you put her in that position. The bottom line is that people are mostly predictable (not necessarily rational, but predictable). If you put your future woman in a position where she is likely to cheat, it is likely to happen. The conditions that make cheating likely are well documented in the sidebar, starting with being overweight, a poor leader and a beta-bitch.

[–]hack3ge0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

I don't blame her - I used to until I cam here - but after reading everything here I can see how it was my fault. I was a beta, got overweight and l did no leading whatsoever.

I just can't wrap my head around staying with a woman who was unfaithful.

[–]weakandsensitive0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Unfaithful? Bitch, she acted exactly as she should've acted.

What kind of self-deprecating sack of shit woman stays with an even shittier even more low-tier fat fuck drunk beta?

Be thankful she didn't take 1/2 the money on the way out. Your situation is tantamount to charity. Listen, if your wife were 400 pounds, sure, everyone might say that you're a jerk for leaving your woman, but no one's actually going to blame you - especially if you were a model.

[–]hack3ge0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Fuck you and you being right...AWALT

The unplugging version of myself is trying to unfuck the situation my beta fuck self created. If current me had this happen I would have been like no more talking or NEXT but you can't change the past.

I know I'm in her frame right now and its stupid - stay plan is the same as the go plan. I'll decide on whether I boundary her talking to the guy or not and either way I need to MAP and OMS.

[–]weakandsensitive0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Have you ever read the article about that talked about how dudes get cheated on because they deserve to get cheated on? Great article. Should check it out.

[–]InChargeManRed Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy


[–]Alphaphux0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Trust no one

[–]weakandsensitive0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

People generally act exactly how you expect them to act. It's the surprises you want to look out for.

This is easier when you're not deluding yourself into seeing what you want see and are instead seeing what's actually there.

[–]thunderbeyond0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

You can never control what the other person in a relationship does and says. You can only influence how they act.

That is not to say "be high value so she stays around".

What we are saying is "be high value as that is what a man should be."

The bonus is that you will find not only is your woman less likely to branch-swing (cos hey she's got a good thing going on) but other women will be attracted to you.

Fuck trust. It is a transitory and shifting value.

[–]broneilbro0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

You can read my posts. I trusted my wife without verifying. I was also BP and other shit. She told me for 3 months nothing was going on etc etc, but looking back her actions were talking another story. She isolated herself, went to bed, face in the phone, etc etc.

I found a "i love you" letter in her wallet which I left and saw her check for the next day. I later confronted her about it and she denied and denied until I asked her point blank about the note. Her whole tune changed.

I told her flatly my trust in her words is fractured and I will decide if it heals. She has been doing better but this was right before I deployed and a deployment is a trust tester. There was other stuff that I could bitch about but it would be pulling me into her frame...

[–]JudgeDoom690 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Any update on your PI?

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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