TheRedArchive needs help
With 700,000+ posts and 16,000,000+ comments archived, and new Red Pill content being added every week, keeping TheRedArchive alive and discoverable to everyone is starting to become very costly. As a 20-year-old student who just moved out and is living independently for the first time, keeping TheRedArchive alive is beginning to cost me much more than I thought.

Therefore, if you appreciate the website, have gained a lot of knowledge and insight from it, and want to show your appreciation, you can do so by donating any amount that you want via the options below. The money will be used on the expensive monthly host bill and any future maintenance of the website.
Thank you, and I wish you all a successful 2021 and a good luck with achieving your goals and dreams!

Best, /u/dream-hunter

Basic question about NMMNG & MRP

Reddit View
August 11, 2016
6 upvotes

New to MRP and just started reading the sidebar material.
I have a basic question.

  1. While reading the first few pages of NMMNG, I found the following line:
    "I'm only good enough and lovable when ____."

  2. Also, in a lot of posts, the MRP theme is 'reward good behavior, and punish bad behavior'. And I get that this is psychology101.

Now, would pt. 2 above not induce nice guy behavior(pt. 1) in your wife?
For eg.:
"I feel loved only when I am not behaving badly to my husband."
"He doesn't love me if I am in shitty emotions. Does he even love me?"
Would this not lead to the wife hiding her bad side, because it may cause abandonment?

I get that NMMNG is designed for a guy. Yet I think underlying NMMNG principles might apply to both genders.
Also, I understand that this might be a BS question, because MRP is for the man's improvement(and not about the woman) and there are ample success stories in application of pt. 2 above, on this sub.

Looking for an answer.
Thank you.


Post Information
Title Basic question about NMMNG & MRP
Author vincedecola
Upvotes 6
Comments 33
Date 11 August 2016 12:31 PM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit askMRP
Link https://theredarchive.com/post/207257
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/askMRP/comments/4x7qfi/basic_question_about_nmmng_mrp/
Similar Posts

Red Pill terms found in post:
NMMNG
Comments

[–]SepeanRed Beret1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

If nice guys got what they wanted from people from being the way they are, there wouldn't be any need for NMMNG. Being a nice guy would work.

Nice guys are either deceiving themselves or being emotionally manipulated into doing certain things for other people without getting from other people what they expect.

MRP can give you the power to turn your wife into a "Ms. Nice Guy", but it is a matter of degrees. To a certain degree, that isn't so bad - that sort of behavior doesn't turn off men in the same way that it turns off women.

If you go the route of /u/TheFamilyAlpha you're being a stand up man, attractive, fun company, you get shit done and take care of your family. Whatever Ms. TFA does for him probably seems like a good deal for her.

There's been a few users here who were illoyal, manipulative assholes and their wives were probably left with the same sense of anxiety and frustration as Nice Guys while still being unable to leave because he was still so damn alpha (until they reach their breaking point at least).

We're here to build better men and improve our sexual strategy, so we try not to point fingers at people on either side of that aisle. Sexual strategy is amoral and all that. That doesn't mean you have to reject your own sense of right and wrong.

[–]vincedecola[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

that sort of behavior doesn't turn off men in the same way that it turns off women.

This. Makes sense now.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy

At a meta-level, it's interesting to see you, as a self-proclaimed newb, being so blatantly uncomfortable with the idea of "reward/punish" because you're afraid of damaging or upsetting your special little snowflake. Not pointing this out shit on you, rather to highlight to you that you are exactly the kind of guy who needs to work through NMMNG.

As far as the question itself goes, think of child-rearing. Sure, there's a chance your kid could grow up thinking "I'm only lovable when I don't run into traffic and don't touch the hot stove". But when you provide more than just the whip and the carrot to your kid, namely a stable emotional environment, a sense of fun, positive role modelling, active discussion, accepting environment, yadda yadda yadda, that's not likely to happen. Same principle.

[–]vincedecola[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

exactly the kind of guy who needs to work through NMMNG.

and the rest of the sidebar.
Thanks.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy

reward good behavior, and punish bad behavior

My approach to this has evolved somewhat. I started here almost a year ago, found NMMNG was good, wasn't my favorite. WISNIFG is what really ignited change for me. As I've learned to better deal with "insults" and guilt, I've shifted to what could be described as "reward good behavior generously and mostly ignore bad behavior" (for clarity: ignore includes "do not reward"). My tolerance for "bad behavior" has improved substantially and I am able to avoid a lot of emotional freak shows. I act on my own discomfort much sooner than I would have in the past.

The bad side is that I started to very easily push past other people's boundaries (where previously I would restrain myself / get caught up with my own issues way earlier) and I caused others harm. Where I am now is that dwelling on bad behavior puts me in a very unfun state of mind. And I don't like that. My goal is to be fun and generous (that's a big part of myself that I like). Pre-NMMNG (and particularly WISNIFG) this aspect of my personality was often taken advantage of because I didn't know I was "allowed" to establish and enforce my own boundaries wherever I wanted. At the very least I now put up a reasonable defense and require a credible offense (I cannot describe how much arguing with myself I would do in order to convince myself to do other people's shit).

I do address recurrent bad behavior directly if I find I'm dwelling on it and try to give others a lot more benefit of the doubt in particular about their intentions. I can protect myself to a far greater extent, so when I'm composed I choose not to worry about how to get others to not make me uncomfortable.

Maybe observers could notice that my generosity does dip based on my mood, but it's not a conscious tit for tat. jacktenofhearts talks about throwing away the spreadsheet/scorecard. This is how I try to internalize that. I'm not able to do it at a macro level--it nurtures an unhealthy paranoia about intentions, so I try to just stop the scorecard at the microlevel and treat each instance in isolation. Maybe this is also an aspect of outcome independence. Dunno.

bluepillprofessor talks about always playing the nice card first. I don't know whether it's that the bad cards aren't bad anymore (or maybe they never were) vs they just don't bother me. Bad vs good is ultimately subjective anyway.

Now, would pt. 2 above not induce nice guy behavior(pt. 1) in your wife

There is a very tedious book (Intimacy and Desire on the deadbedroom sidebar) that makes the case that romantic relationships follow this pattern:

  1. people are attracted to others who solve each other's problems

  2. this develops into an intense mutually-validating emotional fusion

  3. life happens, the fusion breaks down (it was an illusion anyway)

  4. both partners rely on "nice guy" behavior / manipulation to try and restart the fusion

  5. eventually that doesn't work and things spiral out of control

  6. a crisis occurs (the crisis may begin with one or both partners)

An interesting angle is that the book argues this is inevitable. How long it takes to reach crisis is a function of each partner's emotional maturity. The book's solution is very similar to what we follow here. Learn to be self-sufficient and not rely on manipulating your partner (i.e. build frame, inhabit). The book is filled with examples from the woman's perspective as well.

[–]UEMcGillI am become McGill, Destroyer of Blue Pill2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

It's so funny how simple WISNIFG is, yet it's a deeply insightful book. It's probably the one book I would recommend "talking about fight club" with a wife with. Definitely a game changer for me, and why I recommend it so much.

[–]tim_rp0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

The bad side is that I started to very easily push past other people's boundaries (where previously I would restrain myself / get caught up with my own issues way earlier) and I caused others harm.

I appreciate you may not want to share specifics but I'm really interested in this point. How has applying WISNIFG caused you to cause others harm? The book has been purely beneficial to me, but I'm wondering if there's an aspect of application that I'm missing. Not that I'm trying to go dark triad or anything - I'm just interested.

[–]vincedecola[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Thanks for the long reply.
WISNIFG is next on my list.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (16 children) | Copy

Stop rewarding bad behavior. That's negative reinforcement, not punishment. Where did you see advice to punish your wife in the sidebar? Maybe you can use punishment in a fun way with BDSM, but punishment is generally an ineffectual technique of a poor leader.
 

I get that NMMNG is designed for a guy. Yet I think underlying NMMNG principles might apply to both genders.

Yep. NMMNG's practical advice is better than the theory. Covert contracts, codependency, and all the other pathetic shit that people do when they lack social skills, personal identity, and self esteem apply to both men and women.
 
As for WISNIFG and assertiveness, it applies even more to women. The classic couples counseling advice is for the woman to learn assertiveness and for the man to learn empathy. MRP attracts passive aggressive, whiny bitches who have lost their wives attraction and respect, so we teach them to act like men. The empathy part is left out, because that's frankly not something that you can teach from a few lines of text, if it can be taught at all to an adult.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (15 children) | Copy

It's in the sidebar and pretty ingrained in the culture and advice.

Any responsive deviation from the baseline is a stimulus. Withdrawing affection and attention etc is approached as a punishment. We do have the ignore and go about your day, but saying that advice to disappear or ghost as retaliation doesn't exist is disingenuous. Obvious example is Husband's Dilemma.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (14 children) | Copy

Negative reinforcement and punishment are not the same thing, and common use differs from experimental psych.
 
Maybe this scenario will clarify what I'm saying:
Wife is in a rage

  • buy her flowers [positive reinforcement, reward undesirable behavior]

  • call her a bitch and hit her [punishment, undermines relationship, may increase or decrease undesirable behaviors depending on context]

  • ignore, do something else [negative reinforcement, her bad behavior always produces an unpleasant situation, and the unpleasantness is relieved by your attention when she is civil]

  • talk, if you've got the frame for it [ends bad behavior and replaces it with more desirable behavior]

 
The first is how guys turn good wives into harpies. The second is stupid. The third is better. The fourth is best, but most guys don't have the frame for it.
 
People aren't pigeons or dogs. We're more complex. The line between punishment and reward can be in the eye of the beholder. A child throws more tantrums when you yell at them. Was it positive reinforcement? Punishment? It depends on the context. A child who's starved for attention sees any attention as reward. Inattention was the unpleasant stimulus that was removed through behavior that would be seen by others as punishment. So, was it negative reinforcement?
 
Edited, more to follow if I have time

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy

This is misdirection. You're right, they're not the same thing.

Reward or punishment describes the intent of reinforcement.

  • Rewards encourage behavior.

  • Punishments discourage behavior.

We very much discuss punishment here and it's all over the sidebar.

Don't deceive yourself.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy

If your intent is to punish your wife, you're doing it wrong. Negative reinforcement-- or removing the pleasant experience of your time, attention, or commitment-- shouldn't be as a result of being butthurt or angry, or some other negative emotion toward your wife. That's a form of weakness.

Think of it this way: if your wife is being shitty, don't get mad at her and "punish" her. Women will be shitty at times. So will men. Accept that people will always be shitty at some point, especially our wives. It does no good to punish them. Simply remove your presence or attention and do something or be with someone who isn't shitty. Reward your wife with your attention when she's being pleasant.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Thank you for that insight.

We were discussing whether the ~sidebar~ advocates punishment but got a little off track.

Doc here is pretty adamant that it doesn't.

Having read it myself a few times... I have my doubts.

When pressed he misdirected to discussing positive vs negative reinforcement.

Luckily semantic gritties re: reinforcement are completely irrelevant.

I gave the obvious example that The Husband's Dilemma advises playing a "mean card" in response to shitty behavior. That's obviously advice to use punishment, isn't it? SALSM is full of tales of punishment. Hell, one of the biggest complaints we see about marriage 2.0.16 is that traditional roll-up-your-sleeves punishment has been taken off the table by unchecked feminists.

Punishment advocacy is everywhere here, saying it's not is some sort of meta-joke or delusion.

[–]vincedecola[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

If your intent is to punish your wife, you're doing it wrong.

Are you saying that only intent is what matters?
I still can't see how removing attention cannot be seen as a punishment by the other person.

I see that RP men are busy self-improving men.
1. Good behavior = Attention, Time, Affection + Busy self improving
2. Bad behavior = Busy self improving - Attention, Time, Affection + (I have also read comments telling) "up the dread".

Are you saying, pt. 2 above cannot be perceived as punishment?

Edit:formatting

[–]jeeohnjones0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

A shitty man removing his presence and attention is a relief to wives.

"stop touching me, get off me, leave me alone, oh thank god"

A valuable man who isnt seen as a gross, grabby creeper by the wife, who removes his presence and doesnt give her attention, yes this is a punishment.

Step 1, be attractive. then your absence means something.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Yes, intent is what matters. If you're doling out punishment, you've given that person too much power over you. You can't control how they interpret your actions. Feelz before realz. You become the prize and condition your wife to want to be pleasant around the prize.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (7 children) | Copy

People aren't pigeons or dogs. We're more complex. The line between punishment and reward can be in the eye of the beholder. A child throws more tantrums when you yell at them. Was it positive reinforcement? Punishment? It depends on the context. A child who's starved for attention sees any attention as reward. Inattention was the unpleasant stimulus that was removed through behavior that would be seen by others as punishment. So, was it negative reinforcement?

You're confusing the questions:

  • Is this punishment?

  • Is this effective punishment?

Whether something is intended as a punishment or reward is what matters. The rest is execution.

Dissecting out why a punishment or reward is effective or ineffective in terms of operants is academic. The intent is still to punish.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy

The intent is still to punish

Not for me. Maybe I've been MeRPing wrong all this time. Maybe that's why my wife is so happy...

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy

happy wife happy life amirite ;)

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy

happy wife happy life

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.
 
Man up, be the most attractive version of yourself, and find ways to lead a happy and fulfilling life. If she's compatible, then she'll happily join you. If not, then the relationship should end. MRP is almost as simple as that.
 
People do stupid shit all the time. When my wife does something stupid, I don't reward it, but I don't need to punish her. She self-corrects. If she doesn't, then I speak to her about the issue.
 
If you're so focused on your wife that you're having to punish her behavior, then it's a shit marriage and you're a shit husband. Those are the newbies going around trying to punish their wives. They're barely in Phase I.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy

It's great that works (it's very similar to what I do).

There's a lot of the sidebar we choose to ignore, though. We all do. It's pretty much required. It's a well known fact that the sidebar is full of conflicting and incompatible advice. I'm not passing judgment on you. I'm objecting to your use of rhetorical questions such as:

Where did you see advice to punish your wife in the sidebar?

which are completely disingenuous and that I've seen you use a few times elsewhere when defending MRP.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

LOL - VFL, is that you?
 

I'm not passing judgment on you.

Newbs might not get that joke.
 
It wasn't a defense of MRP, numb nuts, it was a warning against a faulty mindset. Even if it had not been a direct response to OP, even if I was preaching to some imaginary feminist audience, NMMNG, WISNIFG, MMSLP, SGM, How to Win Friends and Influence People - no punishment. BPP's book is on there - I'll give you that, but it's a recent addition.
 
You've been following me around long enough to know that I paint MRP in a favorable light and tend to shit on the other pill subs. MRP has a lot to offer someone who can put the content into perspective. A narcissistic piece of shit, on the other hand, will use it as a recipe for abuse. Good thing there's this whole subreddit to talk about it!
 
OP's trying to reconcile different sources and put it into context. What source? What context? Some anger phase fucktard is going to go around trying to use operant conditioning when he should take the focus off his wife for a while, man up, and build the frame to state his expectations. Punishing your wife is a recipe for an unsatisfying relationship and lifelong anger phase.
 
You want to talk punishment and sidebar content? 12 stages of dread will have very different outcomes depending on your mindset. We, the experienced guys who are in happy marriages, are here to put this stuff into context. Show me the sidebar content in question, OP, and I'll help you put it into perspective.
 
For the record, VFL/pikadildo/nargin0/redwine, I think they should mod you for your CSS experience. Even if most of your posts are downvoted, it's obvious that your intentions are good.

[–]vincedecola[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Show me the sidebar content in question, OP, and I'll help you put it into perspective.

Thanks man. Will get back whenever I might question any of the sidebar content, if at all I am doubtful.

[–]redearththeory0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

This statement is about behavior within a relationship

"I feel loved only when I am not behaving badly to my husband."

This statement is about a person's self image

"I'm only good enough and lovable when ____________."

I would argue that conditioning, incentivizing and (yes, I'll say it) manipulating behavior is a normal part participating in human relationships. Manipulating someone's self worth is different and not something that's commonly practiced as a part of MRP.

[–]vincedecola[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

Manipulating someone's self worth is different and not something that's commonly practiced as a part of MRP.

I have seen a few stories on the sub, where the woman is heart broken by the changes. In other stories, the woman was strong enough to hold on. I know the advice might be to 'next' or 'do what you want/need because this is YOUR life.'
It is ugly to do that to someone, to break someone so bad, in my opinion. And I don't know if there is any good advice when it comes to a 'win-win' situation for both the husband and wife, whether or not they stay together post MRP application.

Of-course the good part for RP men is its almost always a 'win' situation whether the wife follows or not and these men seem to be proud of it, now that they can go fuck 20yr olds. I am sure there would be some RP men here who would have a great relationship(or no relationship) had they met their wives after being a thorough RP man.

Definitely, none of us men should be trying to save an emotionally broken woman. But leading is a different thing.
Is there any advice on 'leading' in such situations rather than 'keep doing whatever you are doing, its working'?
I haven't seen any yet.

Also, I get that sidebar has answers to many of my questions and I am on it. And probably when I will look back to these questions months later, I might smile(or cringe) at how dumb I was.

[–]redearththeory0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

And I don't know if there is any good advice when it comes to a 'win-win' situation for both the husband and wife

Be attractive and seduce your wife is a win-win situation that works for both.

If you become attractive and you still don't have the relationship you want, then the relationship ends. That's the game we're all playing. But lets admit that this generally only happens when the woman met, married (vowed to fulfill the sexual need of) and had kids with a man she knew full well she wasn't attracted to in order to secure his paycheck or his labour in raising her kids. Call me heartless but I don't have a lot of sympathy for a woman who does that and then ends up in a bad situation.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Yet I think underlying NMMNG principles might apply to both genders.

Maybe, outside the scope of RP. Think of this place like having an old school dad. Teaches you how to fish, how to deal with women, how to put up with no shit. He tells you to go to the gym, he gives you crap when you're being a bitch, and he gives you the tools to succeed.

That's all. your question isn't bad, but it's premise is fucked, and even thinking about asking it is what we address.

Unless you're a chick, in which case... Tits or GTFO.

[–]vincedecola[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Think of this place like having an old school dad.

I have seen you from many other posts. I like your style, man.

[–]cholomiteMod / BP Downvote Magnet0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

You're thinking about this from a beta mindset.

Imagine you're in this position but you're a handsome millionaire with 6 pack abs and nice clothes. It means nothing if she is a beta nice girl.

A beta man rewarding good behavior is meaningless to a woman. Using good behavior to get in the good graces of a top tier alpha is literally her life goal. The reward doesn't matter as much as the man that is giving it.

I can reward my girls good behavior with a nice dinner date and a movie and 8 hours of oral sex. That won't mean nearly as much to her as a wink and a smile from the millionaire with abs and nice clothes.

You are the prize. Act like it then become it.

[–]vincedecola[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

That won't mean nearly as much to her as a wink and a smile from the millionaire with abs and nice clothes.

Agreed, coz he has a high sex rank.

[–]blarggggggggggg0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Would this not lead to the wife hiding her bad side, because it may cause abandonment? I get that NMMNG is designed for a guy. Yet I think underlying NMMNG principles might apply to both genders.

LOLOLOL - so your main take away from NMMNG is, hmmm, how can I worry MORE about the emotional headspace of a WOMAN??

When are you going to live your life for YOU?

[–]vincedecola[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

When are you going to live your life for YOU?

I have a hard time understanding why you would bring that advice up.
Its repeated all over the sidebar and this sub. And I am TAKING enough of that advice already from the sidebar and the posts.

I know the common answer is: "Because you are a pussy and we need to keep reminding you."
Thanks for reminding me.

Queries. If you can't/don't want to answer them, then don't.
If they are irrelevant to the sub, then say so.
If they are irrelevant to you then STFU.



You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

© TheRedArchive 2021. All rights reserved.

created by /u/dream-hunter