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Yes, Men Do Leave the Market

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January 10, 2018
148 upvotes

Post Information
Title Yes, Men Do Leave the Market
Author redpillschool
Upvotes 148
Comments 104
Date 10 January 2018 03:03 PM UTC (2 years ago)
Subreddit TheRedPill
Link https://theredarchive.com/post/226702
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/7pg44s/yes_men_do_leave_the_market/
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Comments

[–]Gandsy40 points41 points  (0 children) | Copy

Isn't it just another example of female solipsism? The woman in the piece feels entitled to her share of alpha dick and is genuinely surprised she's not getting any. Those beta guys who give up and go off the market would not qualify for her attention and intimacy anyway. Now she is hitting the wall and cannot realize it cause the FI tries to sell the idea that there is no wall and she believes the BS.

[–]2Dmva100120 points121 points  (25 children) | Copy

What the FI fails to realize is that as they come closer to unilaterally controlling the sexual marketplace (socially, sexually, legally, economically, etc) they are eliminating the 'Burden of Performance' required of men, as they will soon have no bargaining chips or value to contribute. Men of MGTOW are doing a portion of this market fade-out for them.

Ironically and consequently, it will soon be the women who will have to 'perform' to regain the interest of men in a monopolized SMP. But this won't work because:

  • Women don't want responsibility

  • Men will have no incentive

  • Sexbots (which will double down the point above)

  • Men as a collective will be seen as 'lower' than women, and hypergamy will no longer be able to sustain itself.

The USA will fall.

[–]El_Serpiente_Roja51 points52 points  (0 children) | Copy

A while ago i wouldve called this crazy talk but i know much much better now

[–][deleted] 23 points24 points  (7 children) | Copy

Plus most guys are too broke to start a family. The solution? Immigration 😊

[–]TFWyourWaifuDies12 points13 points  (6 children) | Copy

Immigration of 3rd worlders, no less. I'm sure those men will have money to start a family.

[–]vonbravo 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy

HAHAHAHA. omfg. It's so funny, it hurts. Damn. The truth.

[–]TFWyourWaifuDies23 points24 points  (4 children) | Copy

It's funny at first, then you realize that these 3rd world immigrants have families with more children than the native citizens.

How they they afford it? Welfare. They are basically taking money that could be used to start a family away from the natives, so they can start their own families.

It's fucked.

[–]JohnnyDildonics11 points12 points  (2 children) | Copy

Don't forget that fertility doctor in one of those Eurostan socialist hellholes that purposely IVF'd single moms with some ugly autistic retard's sperm from somalia after they asked for tall smart blue eyed men. A whoel slew of 100% retarded, ugly as sin kids were born and he got sued to shit. But those 70 some odd tardspawn remain a burden on the system because most of them grew up mentally/physically disabled in some way.

[–]mikesteane1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Can you link me to something about this please?

[–]WayneMyers87-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy

white people don't get welfare?

[–]SocialJusticeWhiner12 points13 points  (5 children) | Copy

Not to knit pick but VR and neural implants will likely be the solution to sexless MGTOWs and other incels. Sex bots will be expensive unless it's sex as a service (GooUber?).

[–][deleted] 22 points23 points  (1 child) | Copy

Sex bots will be expensive

But a lot cheaper than a divorce.

[–]newls12 points13 points  (0 children) | Copy

A lifelike AI girl who does all the wife shit, is sweet and caring and is programmed to love me and fawn all over me? My money's on the table.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Nah. They won't be expensive. Especially when the market explodes.

[–]Hillary_For_Prison2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

They will probably cost as much as a mid level car at first and then get cheaper as more people buy them and economy of scale and technical advances are made. Even at $30k each they would appeal very well to a single man, especially if they can serve as a live-in maid and can run minor errands.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Be interesting to see how make sex bots impact. I mean in popular culture dildos, vibrators, and female porn (50 shades) is perfectly acceptable, but the make equivalent is still shamed.

[–]1OneRedYear5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy

No the uSA will not fall. By the time we have sexbots we will have warbots. The first Drone Swarm attack was just recorded. We can prop ourselves up with Military technological dominace for a long time. You only need a small core of alphas with the will to use this tech to dominate the globe. Really the war will be between the ruling alphas and the rest of the population that will be rendered useless by technology. If you are reading this and you aren't on your way to billionaire status you may be culled in the future. The USA won't fall, the beta will.

[–]Idkhowyoufeelaboutme17 points18 points  (4 children) | Copy

untrue, women will always want the one who genuinely doesnt want her most. men will win and the women and betas and nice guys will fall. the usa was built by the men we are. those getting fucked by britains taxes and bull shit. whats happening in this country? we see trump, we see dems stooping lower than ever before. we see our bp college liberal days of faggotry and bullshit. women are beautiful creatures. but you need to appreciate what they give you. you do your own thing. women come after. Always (as to women, themselves come first) women will have an awakening of alpha ness. feminism is the female beta. Why do you think beta men like beta females? like attracts. beta females cant get alpha men. alpha women dont want beta men unless to use them. alpha women are partners with alpha men. always test the woman to see if theyre good enough for you.

[–]oZeplikeo24 points25 points  (3 children) | Copy

The problem is many women are going for alpha men and having kids with them, but then end up raising the kids themselves. Or you get a beta cuck raising another man's kid. More and more men opting out = decline of civilization as we know it. This is happening already in poor minority neighborhoods.

[–]MoronicBobbin11 points12 points  (0 children) | Copy

I know so many women who shat out Chads kid while they were still teenagers or early 20s. Fast forward 5 or so years and they are all now with complete beta herbs.

There simply aren't enough high quality girls to go around who haven't already been knocked up by Chad or are sharing a Chad.

Basically you either have to become Chad or you'll be raising his kids.

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (1 child) | Copy

Yeah the true top alphas don't have time to raise kids.

[–]GenieGenius9 points10 points  (0 children) | Copy

It's not even that, they don't have time to deal with women/the mother's bullshit. It's extremely rare for a man to just feel nothing for his children, on a primal level he knows that's his legacy.

[–]red_matrix[🍰] 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

The thing I don't understand about this is - who will allow men to be seen that low? Won't men realize what's happening and start to wake up? At some point? I mean, with sexbots and VR around the corner - I see society changing in a big way.

[–]johngalt12342 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Maladaptive. Expect genetic bottleneck of females soon.

[–]Five_Decades2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Hypergamy is already unsustainable due to education. Women earn 50% more tertiary degrees than men, but if they want men of identical or higher socioeconomic status, the math doesn't work.

[–]crdr8836 points37 points  (1 child) | Copy

I'm debt free, work for myself and 180lbs of muscle as I hit the gym 4 days a week. This is the best news I've heard on this site. This is what real Return on Self-Investment is all about.

[–]canadianmooserancher3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

Online CHEAP courses are available too... if not free. So great

[–]TheLaughingRhino 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy

The larger problem is not men who have announced they have left the market, but men who don't realize they have left the market.

The most valuable resource for anyone in this life is time. You never get any of it back. Don't waste it. Many men out there are trying to build good lives for themselves say, sure, sure, I'll invest in a woman, when I finally meet one who is WORTH MY TIME. After a period of bad experiences and likely be cheated on and slightly resourced jacked and facing solipsism and all that horseshit, many men won't realize it, but they'll find so little, not just women, but PEOPLE, who are not worth their time.

How many modern American women are really going to be worth your time?

Sex is great. Sex is fantastic. Sex is like pizza. There is no such thing as bad pizza. Except when it's covered in shit.

There are men who are not incels, they are not openly announced MGTOW. They are just dudes who are willing to do something else worth their time, and will only be open to women if they can offer something other than a warm wet hole. And that's the tragedy, most women, esp American women, that's all they have to offer. A warm wet hole.

There's a saying here - Kill the beta. Women took that shit literally. They just kept bullying and acting like assholes until their biggest resource base, beta orbiter simps with shitty unrealized hopes and open wallets, are leaving them in droves. No wonder the modern American woman is miserable. They aren't getting jack shit from Chad except a railing and a soft next. And now they aren't getting their daily fix of attention and validation from their free stuff cows anymore.

Women don't care if Alpha men are in scarcity (because those have always been rare), they care when RESOURCES, ATTENTION AND VALIDATION are in scarcity.

[–][deleted] 16 points17 points  (3 children) | Copy

The first part sounds like me. Shit, the whole thing sounds like me. I didn't intend to drop out the dating pool. It just happened over time.

First it was realizing that I'm not where I want to be in life. I'm fine alone, but add a woman and suddenly money gets scarce. Even if it is cheap, cause trust me, getting laid is not really a bank breaker if you're not a chump. My deal was that even the little cash to even drive and meet a chick would be better spent on something else. Furnishing my apartment. A book I wanted. Finally starting that movie collection and so on.

Then I started realizing that dating is a gamble. Even if she doesn't cry rape. Even if she isn't nuts. I've dealt with two dudes threatening to kill me over a girl. One pulled a gun. Even if most dudes aren't that nuts it's still annoying as fuck dealing with exes. Add in the above and suddenly it's a high risk/low reward gamble.

Then I realized that I don't even like women. Not saying I don't like individuals. It's like people. They are selfish most times and idiots all the others. I can think you are a cool person but still realize that if a group people formed on Twitter they'd be gullible idiots. Beyond sex (or friendship if she's not a tool) i have no desire to even talk to them. They offer me nothing I want...except a kid.

Finally, I had a son. That's when I realized that's all I wanted. I am 100% devoted to that kid and I only entertain his mother cause the way the world is she's the mom and I'm just a sperm donor. Otherwise it would be him and me and I'd be the happiest man alive. I literally have 0 use for a female in my life. I need nothing from them.

So now here I am. Been near a decade. Sure, I hooked up with women still but none of them were from my own country. I see (and even my friends see) women go out of their way to coax me into speaking to them. One even doubled around twice just to brush by me. My friend peeped that and it was funny as shit. But I don't feel like it. I have no desire.

If a woman approached me and put in effort I'd entertain it. But these women come with so much risk, baggage, and costs and yet they can't even be assed to strike up a chat? Why would I put in effort and time and money into such a risk? Im fine where I'm at, she's the one on the priority and she can't even say hi? It's stupid.

I know I must sound beta, and perhaps I still am. I don't even care about that anymore. I just don't care for women at all. No hate, no salt. I just see them as a cost benefit analysis and unless she catches my eye or proves she is worth it I ignore her. Even just being able to hold an adult conversation is a plus, yet most of them can't even do that.

I honestly give 0 shits about women. They are just there. Like squirrels in the background. And none of this was something I planned on.

[–]Marventh4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy

I was going to write it down but you covered it word by word for me. Thanks.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

You don't sound beta. You sound MGTOW.

[–]Burgundy14533 points34 points  (15 children) | Copy

I recently read a book that explains this in detail called Date-onomics. The author is a data analytics guy so most of his arguments are backed by statistics. I was drawn to the book since I too am a math person. As a single guy living near NYC I was happy to find out there are much more college educated single females then there are of their male counterparts :)

Below is the description from Amazon

"It’s not that he’s just not that into youβ€”it’s that there aren’t enough of him. And the numbers prove it. Using a combination of demographics, statistics, game theory, and number-crunching,Β Date-onomicsΒ tells what every single, college-educated, heterosexual, looking-for-a-partner woman needs to know: The β€œman deficit” is real. It’s a fascinating, if sobering read, with two critical takeaways: One, it’s not you. Two, knowledge is power, so here’s what to do about it. Β Β  Β 

The shortage of college-educated men is not just a big-city phenomenon frustrating women in New York and L.A. Among young college grads, there are four eligible women for every three men nationwide. This unequal ratio explains not only why it’s so hard to find a date, but a host of social issues, from the college hookup culture to the reason Salt Lake City is becoming the breast implant capital of America. Then there’s the math that says that a woman’s good looks can keep men from approaching herβ€”particularly if they feel the odds aren’t in their favor."

[–]askmrcia19 points20 points  (4 children) | Copy

Then there’s the math that says that a woman’s good looks can keep men from approaching her

BS and in fact that entire book sounds like BS. Sure the math adds up, but the reasons behind the math (numbers) are wrong.

Women with good looks get approached all the time. Anyone who thinks otherwise have no idea what they are talking about.

Either those women make themselves unapproachable (go to bars with their heads buried in their phones or never leaving their friend's hip) or they are flat out lying due to their crazy high standards. Hell they can go on tinder and find some doctor or whatever whenever they want.

Also there are plenty of college educated men for women. The problem is these college educated men aren't making $100k a year as soon as they graduate so these women don't want them.

So what do these educated women do? They fuck around all through their 20s while trying to land a guy making much more then them until they hit 30s+ complaining that there are no suitable guys around.

There are plenty of educated guys with a decent salary, but they are getting over looked.

Also lets not kid ourselves and act like these so called educated women aren't playing the fields (cock carasol) and don't even want a relationship.

[–]Burgundy1456 points7 points  (3 children) | Copy

You quote line from a description of the book and say the math behind the numbers is wrong without reading about the actual math. It's pretty simple. Starting in the 60s and 70s much more women started going to college while the amount of men stayed relatively the same.

Yes, women with good looks get approached. But the approach anxiety for most men is much higher for a hotter woman. This is common knowledge to me.

What exactly is your point? I shouldn't get excited there are more college educated women out there for us?

[–]askmrcia2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy

But the approach anxiety for most men is much higher for a hotter woman. This is common knowledge to me.

And I'm saying this is completely wrong unless you live in some other world or something. Good looking women get approached a lot. If they go to bars or any social setting they will be getting approached. The only time they are not getting approached is if they make themselves look unapproachable, which is staying around their friends who they came there with or having their heads buried in their phones.

If you think most guys who see hot girls are looking at them feeling they are out of their league and won't approach then I have no idea what country you are from.

Ask any female bartender or waitress who is hot how often they are approached. Women are approached so much they damn near label any man trying to talk to them as harassment.

What exactly is your point?

My point is you're wrong or at least you're not seeing the big picture. All you see is "women go to college more then men thus they are having a harder time finding a male partner."

And I'm saying its much more then that. Women are having a harder time finding a partner because:

A. They don't want to date seriously in their 20s

B. There are plenty of candidate/prospects that they can date, but they choose not too because they are hoping to find someone better

Its not as simple as them going to college. Hell what's wrong with women wanting to date a guy making less or the same as them....oh wait.

[–]Burgundy1451 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

Ok, I understand what you're saying. But isn't one of the main points of this this sub to increase our SMV to become that someone better that they find?

[–]askmrcia4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy

Yes that is one of the main points of this sub and what I'm trying to tell you is women's standard's have completely skyrocketed, especially those with careers.

They get whatever college degree and think they deserve a man making $100k with a six pack and the coolest hobbies in the world. Good luck finding a guy that can meet those requirements in their 20s and early 30s.

There are plenty of men out here who have good careers or on the right path, are in shape, good looking and these women still don't want a relationship with them. Why? Because these men may not make enough. Or these men's status may not be high enough.

Incels and low tier guys are going to get over looked regardless. I'm not referring to these men.

But when a man is doing well for himself and these women still don't want said guy because they want someone damn near unrealistic, well that's a problem.

And we also have to factor in that a lot of these women want to sleep around in their 20s. So you may be a perfect fit, but these women aren't ready to "settle" down just yet.

So yea a guy can raise his SMV, but not every guy is going to make $100k. Not every guy is going to be a pro athlete. Not every guy is going to be the super popular guy in the city. Not every guy is going to have some crazy high status. Not every guy is going to over 6'0" tall. And just because a guy is not one of those doesn't mean he's a worthless incel who sits in his mom's basement all day.

Get what I'm saying?

So again my main point is, there are plenty of guys for these "educated" women to date. The thing is, they don't want to because they rather sleep around or their expectations are way too high. Again, women can easily date a guy making less then them, but they choose not too. Does the book even bring that up?

[–]Troll_Name24 points25 points  (2 children) | Copy

"College educated," in that context, means they joined a cult and they think this membership entitles them to elite status over everyone else including those who graduated real majors.

Happy hunting.

[–]Original_Username713 points14 points  (0 children) | Copy

Amen. Analytical men are avoiding the miseducation bubble.

[–]reddttt8 points9 points  (1 child) | Copy

That last bit doesn't confirm it is indeed one of the best news for us? Common men are weak, docile and just do what they're told. Look at what TRP has given us, a sense of autonomy about ourselves and a look behind the curtain.. I mean.. We hit the jackpot, didn't we? Am I the only one happy about this?

[–]Burgundy1451 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

I took it as great news. I've been working on my frame and knowing there isn't going to be as much competition for me is awesome. The one guy replied to me saying it just means more entitled women. Well more women is more women. Seems like he's worried hes not going live up to their expectations which is the exact opposite of what a red piller should think.

[–]yummyluckycharms2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy

You're making a dangerous assumption - that the women at university are primarily dating other university men. Most women aren't interested in university boys, they are out there chasing men with money. Whether that is via sugar babies or just plain hanging out at high end social events. Most of the time, when they do hook up with a younger guy, its just a casual side fuck

Its amazing how much the 80-20 rule happens in real life. Most guys in this sub can easily spin 3-4 plates if they wanted to and had the time/energy for. Women are more than willing to share an alpha

[–]Burgundy1451 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

I do not make that assumption. Yes, most women would rather have a succesful older man then a young college boy. Well a good way to become a successful man is to start out as a college boy. And I'll happily be one of their casual side fucks while building up my frame to become the desired older man.

[–]jewishsupremacist880 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

alot of women think thy're carrie bradshaw. i used to get mad about this but as i get older and make more money, i dont really care anymore. you can pay for sex if you really want it. you can do whatever you want when you have money and tbh..while it cannot buy happiness..it sure beats being homeless

[–]SlightlyCyborg-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy

The thing with college is it is mostly a status indicator more than an intelligence or earning potential indicator. Women are more attracted to college, because they are more attracted to the status of it. They can't see how to succeed without it. Entrepreneurial men know they can succeed just as well without it.

[–]searcher612-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy

Took a quick glance at the book and reviews. There are plenty of reviews that indicate the flaws in the authors theory - many of them align with what others have pointed out here.

Appears to be not worth the read at all.

[–]yomo86[🍰] 7 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy

I dissent that it is a mass exodus. It is, as Cleary pointed out, that men lose interest. Anything except genuine compassion (which stems from the right mixture of an alpha core and beta perks) can be financially quantified. The gf experience hits the bank with $ 500-700 a weekend and for $ 50 more she will say 'I love you'. Classic escorts are cheap. It is simply not worth it. Men don't drop out. They just don't go shopping anymore.

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy

I fucking loved this post.

I definitley left the market but unlike the vidya game jockey who wrote the article, nobody who knows me would think I left.

Im married. I have a long term plate. I have no muss, no fuss flings.

But Im all alone baby. And thats how I like it

[–][deleted] 8 points9 points  (5 children) | Copy

Plus it makes no sense to go out anymore when tinder is available.

[–]MoronicBobbin13 points14 points  (4 children) | Copy

Hence why half of all clubs have closed down in the UK over the last 10 years. Add on top tinder instantly eliminates 80%-90% of men who don't look like David Gandy and it's no wonder men are silently dropping out

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (3 children) | Copy

Just looked David Gandy up, the dude was born for cologne commercials lol. I'm guess they've been closing due to online dating? Or something else? I've also been an advocate of tinder and the like. Even if you're a fucking 9, there's still plenty of women where you won't be "their type". Statistically, going out makes zero sense if you want to get laid.

[–]MoronicBobbin11 points12 points  (2 children) | Copy

They started closing with the 2008 recession, but Tinder which came out around 2011 continued the trend. Women who turn 18 who might of generally gone out to meet men have been brought up on smartphones so will naturally turn to dating apps rather than going out and socialising. It's also hell of a lot cheaper considering the bleak employment landscape and McJobs.

The ones still open are normally complete sausage fests where the few women go to be seen and get a few photos for instawhore. Completely pointless activity now for men unless you're extremely good looking or have some extreme social status, dropping Β£50 and all you have to show for it is a hangover, better off going up the gym or working on some projects.

If Tinder works for you, more power to you. I didn't get a single match when I tried it, tested the main profile photo I used on photo feeler and got 80% attractiveness score so it's not like i'm some elephant man or something. I suspect this is most mens experience of Tinder, speaking to friends and from what I read online.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Great insight all around. If you want me to take a look at your profile let me know.

[–]ziggmuff16 points17 points  (2 children) | Copy

Some in here are talking like "college educated" girls are somehow preferable to "non-college educated" girls and to me that could not be further from the truth.

Nothings worse than some self entitled douche-bitch who thinks what comes out of her mouth matters because she's got a piece of paper with her name on it that somebody else paid for her to get.

No discrimination here, they're all cancer, and they'll all fake "being into you" to get what they want, then change their mind on a dime when they're ready to spit you out.

Gentleman, let's not be so naive.

[–]Endorsed ContributorJamesSkepp21 points22 points  (0 children) | Copy

The sooner you get through anger phase the better.

[–]GenieGenius5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy

They don't plan that though, they're just doing what feels emotionally good in the immediate moment. Skepp is right, you seem deep into the anger phase.

[–]Gidanocitiahisyt10 points11 points  (41 children) | Copy

Would you guys say that this is a good thing?

I imagine that this is a benefit to guys that still put in the effort to attracting women. We have less competition now, right?

[–]Gandsy7 points8 points  (16 children) | Copy

That's scarcity mindset, dude.

[–]davebrain 2 points2 points [recovered] | Copy

How so? He'a right. It makes no sense that PUAs hate MGTOW especially the monks since it is less competition for their adultering.

[–]Endorsed ContributorThotwrecker19 points20 points  (12 children) | Copy

PUA guys hate MGTOWs and vice versa because each party mentally invalidates each others core concepts. It's not that, in a vaccuum, the PUA cannot see the sense in MGTOW. It's that for the PUA to respect the principles of the MGTOW, he has to entertain the notion that everything he bases his identity on is by and large bullshit. And vice versa.

TRPers ideally are intelligent enough to conceptually understand the pros and cons of both the PUA and the MGTOW movement, and make educated choices about which behaviors and attitudes they want to pull from both. But neither side evaluates in this logical "well hey MGTOWs actually help us - less guys inflating the market price of pussy! Sounds good to me" way because both PUAers and MGTOWs invest their ego and sense of self into their label, which is a silly, silly thing to do.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy

I know most mgtow are just salty ass dudes, but to me Tye fact that they even care is perplexing.

I used to consider myself mgtow (before I saw what they really were) and I have nothing but love for my man ho counterparts. Hell, if a friend needed a wing man I'd be down for the cause. Get laid my dudes. Do you and tell me of your conquests.

I just don't get it even now. It's like someone telling me that I should be mad about how many nuts a squirrel has. Sure, I could eat nuts if I wanted, but I don't. He can have mine. I have no use for them.

[–]Endorsed ContributorThotwrecker6 points7 points  (2 children) | Copy

I strongly recommend not giving a shit about what people do in general. PUA is a building block of TRP; these guys like Mystery, David D, early RSD etc they made invaluable contributions to our understanding of game, women, masculinity, etc etc. They literally saved lives and helped guys continue on their genetic lineage who would otherwise be hardline incels.

Many PUAs are also validation fags and total internet losers. Oh well. Doesn't invalidate the fact that PU was pretty much the only internet philosophy out there from 1998-2012 that was telling guys "yes, you can get laid if you get off your pizza-eating ass and go learn how to get girls."

Likewise MGTOWs now and in the past... some of them have really strong perspectives that I respect, and having succeeded with women, and able to make a rational argument that for them, living a successful life means avoiding women. Fine.

Most MGTOWs are total internet faggots, like most PUAs, and use their ideology as a shield to protect themselves from having to look in the mirror and realize no, they aren't happy with their lives. Most MGTOWs wish they could get pussy and master women, but they find it too hard and too demanding, so they think it's not worth it. Really it's just fear that they would fail if they really committed themselves to improving, mixed in with a hyper active hamster and a worldview of women shaped by being a low value man. (All women seem disgusting when you're low value - you only get to see women being pleasant to you when you're mid value or better. So when MGTOWs have the perspective of all women are whores and rude entitled bitches... it's because ALL WOMEN do behave that way to low value men.)

But just because most MGTOWs are dry-dicked faggots, I'm not going to go and condemn all of them. Some of them are worthwhile people who I can tell actually have successful lives. Most don't, but that doesn't invalidate those who do. This is what I wish people on here would understand about MGTOW and PUA. Stop arguing about who is right and wrong, or about who is more cringey and losery. They both have good thinkers and good theory in the movement, and they both have a whole lotta crap.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I think if you're young and/or haven't experienced women before: I don't think you should go MGTOW.

[–]Endorsed ContributorJamesSkepp4 points5 points  (5 children) | Copy

The thing is, MGTOWS by not participating in m-f power struggle, play into women's sexual strategy b/c from a woman's perspective there's no difference between "non- MGTOW beta which she would never fuck" and "MGTOW which she will never fuck either".

IOW MGTOWS are, in practical terms, supporting female sexual strategy. To have (or struggle and work for) power means to have the ability to control others (in this case other gender, even if in your social circle) - by this definition MGTOWs have no power, thus they are below women in hierarchy.

[–]davebrain 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy

So you have to have sex with women to frustrate their sexual strategy. Lol. I guess PUA teaches you how to think like a woman, completely retardedly.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I think what he's saying is you have to prove you're desirable by fucking select women. Then when you choose not to fuck they know it's them personally and not that you aren't wanted.

[–]Endorsed ContributorJamesSkepp0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

You extrapolated too far. Just b/c I reject MGTOW as viable solution doesn't mean that I believe PUA is a complete one. And FYI I was/am a PUA.

[–]PS2Errol2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy

The whole point of MGTOW is that they don't care. Women's strategy is irrelevant to them as they are not playing the game. They have left the field.

[–]1OneRedYear1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

They don't care so much they whine about it constantly. You know what I don't care about? Korean Soap Operas. You know how many times i have mentioned them in my life...well, once, just now. They care like a motherfucker because they can't shut up talking about women.

[–]1OneRedYear-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy

No, MGTOWs whine like women online. We have Monk Mode and we know the value of focusing on yourself and your own improvement. We know that women aren't special unique snowflakes that magically make life better. We know we have to depend on ourselves in this life. MGTOWs don't seem to know any of that, they come off as bitter, spiteful little men who just wish the world was easier. Gross as fuck man.

[–]Gandsy0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Thinking about competition from beta guys giving up is not being the prize.

Don't think of competition. Be the best you for yourself. Only your own mission counts.

[–]Endorsed ContributorMetalgear2226 points7 points  (22 children) | Copy

It won't be in our lifetime where we see a substantial power shift in the SMP. First the 80/20 rule would have to change to somewhere around 95/5 and then have it be at that point for years before the itch and craving for real males makes it easy for us. Just a theory but I have a feeling things are going to get much worse in the next 20 years for men.

[–]Endorsed ContributorThotwrecker14 points15 points  (19 children) | Copy

It will keep getting worse for average men and keep getting better for top %er men (who are smart enough to avoid the false rape accusations and sexism scandals and reputation assassination).

People think "well if all the betas drop out of the race, it will change women because they won't have betas providing support" -- well, yeah, that's the point of the past 30 years of female-first economic feminism. Young women make more money and have better career prospects, and if they don't, daddy govt forces the earning males (and women) to play collective beta provider and subsidize these women and their choices.

There's no need for betas - they were invisible to women anyway, and women needing their provisions and support is a thing of the past. Them exiting the market won't change anything.

[–]ComradeDurdenTRP4 points5 points  (6 children) | Copy

It will keep getting worse for average men and keep getting better for top %er men (who are smart enough to avoid the false rape accusations and sexism scandals and reputation assassination).

Question: A year ago, I'd concur that the best strategy is to become a high-value man of some notoriety (actor, singer, model, etc.) and to bang the excessive amount of groupies that you'll accrue in the process

But in light of the whole #metoo nonsense, wouldn't it be more prudent for the top X% of men to stick to high-end escorts and/or to enter into sugar daddy/sugar baby relationships with a select group of women? Basically, a business arrangement of sorts where you can have the woman sign an NDA of some kind where she can not spill the beans about the two of you lest she wants to get sued herself

Obviously, the women in question would have to have some business acumen, so we're talking a small fraction of the population; thus, the number of spots will be limited. What is Britney the Bar Slut or Courtney the Concert Groupie to do if she no longer has access to these high value males (and their resources) if the men in question had decided that getting the poon for free is not worth the legal fees they'd have to pay later?

In short, the high-value males have decided to go semi-MGTOW and don't waste their time and resources on average thots. What will happen to the SMP?

[–]Endorsed ContributorThotwrecker7 points8 points  (5 children) | Copy

It would be "prudent" for high value / high reputation males to avoid banging their groupies and the women near them...

But high value men are not prudent, prudency is actually more common amongst betas. (Not that being prudent is beta, but rather high T males behave in high risk / high reward fashion, and high status men are always going to try to bang a shit ton of women off their status.)

Britney the bar slut and Courtney the concert groupie will find some alpha dick, dick will always be free and available. Let's say the alpha / beta dynamic gets worse and it becomes 99.5% beta to .5% alpha. Well, those men will get the pussy still and Britney and Courtney will extract less in return - they'll have to trade their pussy for less resources that previously.

If high value top of the pyramid men leave the SMP, the high value men who remain will be even more valued and fought over by hoes.

SOME beta males will ascend and alpha up and occupy those top spots, but they will be the exceptions, the rare cases, not the rule.

[–]ComradeDurdenTRP4 points5 points  (4 children) | Copy

But high value men are not prudent

I see what you're saying. True, if I'd been a high value man prior to the #MeToo debacle, I too wouldn't hesitate to tap that easy groupie ass. I'd take necessary precautions, mind (wear a condom to prevent STDs, flush it down the toilet to make sure she doesn't spermjack me, etc.) But asides from that, I'm high status, she's a fangirl who's down to fuck. I get my dick sucked, she gets to brag to all her slut friends that she fucked me. Win win for everyone. Or so it used to be.

If high value top of the pyramid men leave the SMP, the high value men who remain will be even more valued and fought over by hoes.

That would be logical outcome, yeah.

I was going to ask if you think there's any hypothetical scenario where women end up suffering as a consequence of their actions, but after thinking about it. Nah, there isn't. They haven't been punished for running various companies into the ground w/ their incompetence, drama, and false sexual harassment charges. They also haven't been punished for organizing modern day witch hunts on social media and college campuses against some poor guy just because a jilted ex decided to claim that she was raped in retaliation. And the less said about the millions of men who've been divorce raped, the better.

Best case scenario, a bunch of thots will whimper on social media that men (the alphas) are not hitting on them as much as they used to, only to then post "#AllMenAreRapists" five minutes later β€” completely oblivious that the latter might be the cause of the former.

I've been out of the anger phase for some time now, but at times like this it's inconceivable how one gender can fuck society up so much and suffer no consequence for it.

Oh well. Back to focusing on myself and building my empire. Thanks for the response

[–]Endorsed ContributorThotwrecker6 points7 points  (3 children) | Copy

Women will suffer - but not high value women or even mid value women.

The losers are of course the ugly women, who due to our societal programming feel entitled to a high value man. For them, the erosion of 80/20 -> 95/5 -> 99/1 will have dire consequences that will hurt their sanity, mental health, etc.

Think of it this way - the losers pay for the sins of the winners. Beta males bear the societal cost of alpha males pillaging the women, creating alpha widows, single mothers, cuck spawn, and so on. The societal ramifications of alphas is offset by betas being willing to provide extra sacrifice, support, validation, emotional tending, and even being a punching bag - this has an equalizing effect.

Likewise, ugly low status girls pay a high price for women torpedoing traditional nuclear families, marriage, monogamy, etc. High value women knew - and rightfully so - that they could get so much more. As they continue to fight for as large of a slice of pie as possible - to take alpha males power, cut them down in numbers, siphon ownership of companies and institutions, control media, and create narratives that help them... who pays the cost? The below average woman pays.

So in that regard, women will suffer for their sins. Just not the women leading the movement. A simple 101 example is women holding off on marriage to ride the cock carousel - a narrative of sexual liberation and freedom from the patriarchy and #endslutshaming, etc. Who pays the price? Attractive high value woman can do it - and they can stop at 30 and use their high-mileage pussy to rope in a decently well off beta to support them and validate them.

A low value woman who's been able to fuck the Chads since she was 18 and be passed around as a slampiece for lawyers and bankers and doctors? At 30 she will not be able to rope in the a high caliber beta/alpha hybrid like the attractive woman. She'll go crazy either settling or go crazy being alone and bitter and using sex and antidepressants to cope.

The low value women will pay the price, because they won't realize that when high value women bring about a societal shift, that shift is really to benefit the high value women. So they will suffer for their complicity and involvement in these movements, they will pay for the erosion of the "decently high value beta male" class, they will pay for creating a climate where Mike from marketing won't ask them out due to fear of losing his job.

The winners win by dirty means - and then it's left to the losers to pay the price and shoulder the damage done.

Some feminists even understand this - they realize that feminism is a upper middle class white woman power grab that is really only chasing their interests, and as they succeed, things actually get worse for the majority of women (who, not being middle class white women, are not important to the media or feminists or anyone).

[–]ComradeDurdenTRP2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy

Think of it this way - the losers pay for the sins of the winners.

I'm going to write this one down. Not only 'cuz it's a memorable adage, but also 'cuz I've seen this phenomenon too many times in my own lifetime for it to be become statistically noteworthy.

You're right, though. I'm sure that there have been plenty a debauched, Wolf of Wall Street bacchanals in various elite fraternities and business companies where the women were given the full #TagTheSponsor treatment. All of it was consensual at the time, of course. But then 5/10/15 years after the fact, what do you know? All of a sudden these thots feel like they've been violated.

Point is, all of a sudden your average college kid who's just there to get an education or an office drone who's got a mortgage to pay off gets implicated in sexual crimes they wouldn't ever even have the opportunity to commit. "#AllMen..." Bitch, please. If all men had the sex life of a rock star or a sports figure, groups like incels or TFL-ers wouldn't even exist.

The final, question, then is this: how is a young man w/ TRP principles (the majority of this sub's demographic, yours truly included) to survive and thrive in this new paradigm w/out becoming a MGTOW monk? Marriage is out of the question; so is cohabitation. I've worked too hard to have fifty plus percent of my assets taken away just 'cuz some thot is 'unhaaaaapy' all of a sudden. Spinning plates w/ caution (screening the women for mental diseases, hard next the moment she shows disrespect, etc.) is still an option. But if the future generations of women grow up even more jaded, narcissistic, and entitled than the present ones, we'll have to pump and dump them right after the first sexual encounter just to preserve our sanity and/or self-respect.

Make no mistake, I've no delusions apropos us being able to stem the tide of the current madness. I just want to survive unscathed long enough to see some grey hair on my head

[–]Endorsed ContributorThotwrecker3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy

The best answer is you have to have something outside of women that drives you - ie you have to want to "do something" rather than just "be a somebody". This is something women can never take away from men - men want to achieve and build shit, they want to create something that is a symbol of their pride, or at the very least, they want to get power and money.

When you're on that track and successful, you don't have to go MGTOW. You can go chase pussy, and you can make an adult decision about the risk that pussy represents versus the gain.

When you are young, you don't have the brain development to make that choice. Drunk girls, unprotected sex, hookers, girls with bfs in the military, etc, I've fucked most of them, and when you are young you make terrible risk/reward calculations because you're eager to prove something by fucking that hot girl. The risk even makes it more alluring, and because you're young and don't have money or fame or anything, you feel like fuck it, I'll roll the dice on the bitch.

That's how I felt for 6 years or so.

So I think the answer is just being able to make risk/reward assessments logically (which IMO is really what being an adult is about. Making decisions as opposed to just doing what you feel like).

Now that I have a good job and I work in an industry under heavy fire, I had to make decisions like taking down my PU blog and FRs, making a new name, not using my real name with ONS / club girls, minimizing interaction with corporate hos, and so on. You adjust and you sacrifice, because as an adult you can't be stupid. You take some risk, but being "alpha" doesn't mean being a testosterone fueled addict anymore, it means being willing to take the risk if it's worth it, but applying cold logic.

Driving is a risk, smoking weed is a risk, doing coke is a risk, fucking hoes is a risk. You make intelligent judgments about what risks to indulge in and which to avoid, and you learn how to evaluate bitches for red flags so you can make the best choices possible. And you accept that you might get burned. The higher value you are, the more incentive bitches have to sink your battleship, but the better selection you have in the sense of abundant options allowing you to screen out the bad apples.

[–]ComradeDurdenTRP1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

The best answer is you have to have something outside of women that drives you - ie you have to want to "do something" rather than just "be a somebody".

I'm not there yet by a long shot but definitely making inroads. There is a time and a place for women, just as there is for any sort of vice. Gaming them keeps my social skills sharp, and of course fucking them is beneficial to both the mind and the body. However, I prefer to minimize my interactions to about an evening a week. I've got my own personal projects and hobbies to tend to the rest of the time

Now that I have a good job and I work in an industry under heavy fire, I had to make decisions like taking down my PU blog and FRs, making a new name, not using my real name with ONS / club girls, minimizing interaction with corporate hos, and so on. You adjust and you sacrifice, because as an adult you can't be stupid. You take some risk, but being "alpha" doesn't mean being a testosterone fueled addict anymore, it means being willing to take the risk if it's worth it, but applying cold logic.

"Women and children can afford to be careless. But not men." A quote from a fictional character, mind. It's still germane, tho

You make intelligent judgments about what risks to indulge in and which to avoid, and you learn how to evaluate bitches for red flags so you can make the best choices possible. And you accept that you might get burned. The higher value you are, the more incentive bitches have to sink your battleship, but the better selection you have in the sense of abundant options allowing you to screen out the bad apples

This is the kind of practical, actionable advice I was looking for. "Hey, the game has changed. There are some new rules in place. Study and apply them, take some calculated risk, be ready to take a loss when things don't work out β€” do all of this and you can still have a fulfilling sex life."

Thanks again for the feedback, Thotwrecker. Really benefited from this correspondence

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

I don't think top guys are gonna avoid this pain. Franco is now caught up in this shit. Even Stan Lee's old ass is in it now. If Hef was still alive, his time would come too.

This is gonna get worse for all men before it gets better.

[–]Endorsed ContributorJamesSkepp2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy

Wouldn't that be a major reason for betas to stop becoming betas?

[–]Endorsed ContributorThotwrecker8 points9 points  (0 children) | Copy

If we lived in a society where all of this information was legible and available to betas - ie betas were acutely aware of how bad they have it versus how good alphas have it, and they were able to visualize these trends - then yes. You'd have a splitting effect where the betas who had the capability to man up would do so (maybe 10% of the betas), and the rest quickly realize that being a low value orbiter isn't worth their time, and they are best served by going MGTOW.

But for that to happen, men need to be aware of how playing the sexual market from a point of low value is completely terrible and worse than just opting out. (Whereas being high value in the sexual market is so black-and-white different from being low value that it's a completely different experience).

The extent to which men are allowed by society to enter awareness of this reality will determine how betas move and shuffle. In a closed system where betas have 100% awareness of the rules of that system and behaved with the type of rational self-interest that economists love to base their models off of... the entire beta class would fizzle out. Because you'd either move up or move out.

But since this information is by and large obscured by society / women / other men, and most betas are kept in the hustle by them believing all men just go through dating in this same way, most betas stay put. Their value slowly depreciates and less and less of them get sexual rewards simply by "being the good guy who was there for her", but they truck on, continuing to maintain their attitude and position while slowly becoming more invisible and extinct.

[–]redegg81 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy

When you say 10% of betas can move up, are you implying TRP can't work for everyone and that many of us will be stuck as betas no matter what we do?

[–]Endorsed ContributorThotwrecker2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy

No, but I am saying that some low % (I think 10% might be accurate, but it's just a number from my ass to demonstrate a point) of betas are capable of crossing over under realistic circumstances.

Betas change, they self-improve, they get better at things and do better stuff. And betas may move up and down in their ranks - but it's all internal movement. For example, a TRPer might improve at getting laid. Or he might improve his body, and then gain some confidence from getting female attention. Betas can improve.

It takes a LOT of momentum though to cross-over. It takes a lot of attitudes and traits that betas are low on; it takes tremendous effort for real, transformation to occur. And it takes even more for you to actually move up many social / sexual "ranks" and not just overtake other betas, but actually move to the on top.

IE as a typical beta, from the years of 21 to 25, you may gain some confidence and improve at conventional dating - dinners and a kiss on the 3rd date and all that. You may get better at it and actually get laid from time to time. So you think because you've been improving and working hard, you're now in alpha territory. But in reality, alphas have it so incredibly differently, it's worlds apart. To actually cross over to the point where you experience life through an alpha's lens?

Shit, maybe 1 or 2% of TRP is capable of making that transition. They would have to literally be a different person to be alpha; like they would have to kill themselves and fill their shell with a new person of worth. That is not easy, most betas will never be able to do that.

[–]rahl_r0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

So you think because you've been improving and working hard, you're now in alpha territory. But in reality, alphas have it so incredibly differently, it's worlds apart. To actually cross over to the point where you experience life through an alpha's lens?

Shit, maybe 1 or 2% of TRP is capable of making that transition. They would have to literally be a different person to be alpha; like they would have to kill themselves and fill their shell with a new person of worth. That is not easy, most betas will never be able to do that.

You've posted a lot of valuable comments across this thread. Although this one feels like a cliffhanger.

Would you elaborate on the topic of such radical transition? Thanks!

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy

There's no need for betas

Betas do the jobs that make the money that allow the government to give it to women as their free 'beta bux'. When betas decide they're not getting anything worthwhile in return, they stop working, and the whole thing collapses.

[–]Endorsed ContributorThotwrecker4 points5 points  (2 children) | Copy

Right, but I'm not talking about going on strike like Atlas Shrugged or something and deciding not to work. The "economic betas" of America are a whole different story and there is a definitely a parallel to sexual betas and a big mutual pool.

The sexual marketplace doesn't depend on betas like corporate America or various industries do. The sexual marketplace follows economic rules in some ways ie supply and demand, but whereas betas provide the lion's share of the manpower in a traditional industry, in the sexual marketplace, their provisions (validation, money, time, attention, etc) are things that women can crowdsource and receive without betas. Social media provides the validation and attention, their daddy or their career or daddy govt pays the bills, they use health insurance more than guys to get their pills, etc - the system does not collapse if betas go anywhere.

Betas won't exit the workforce because they need money, there's no other option for most of them, especially since betas typically go for career paths that are big on academic investment - ie you put 4 years in school into becoming an engineer, you're not going to go move to Thailand and digitally blog. You put 9 years into becoming a doctor, you're not going to just quit and go on strike to protest taxation.

Betas can move out of the sexual marketplace very easily. Betas can't move out of the economic marketplace without setting their lives on fire.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy

Betas can't move out of the economic marketplace without setting their lives on fire.

Yet the whole history of the human race tells us that widespread polygamy leads to conflict and violence, because sexual betas who can't get women stop being 'economic betas' too. This is why all the most successful cultures have been monogamous.

Betas have little incentive to work when there's no woman for them at the end of it. So why not do as little work as possible, and play computer games instead? Why spend all that time becoming a doctor if women will walk past you to shag the bikers down the road instead?

Women stopped caring about betas over the last few decades because government takes those betas' money and gives it to them, so they don't have to do anything to collect their beta bux. When the betas stop earning, the free handouts stop, too.

[–]Endorsed ContributorThotwrecker6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy

"Betas have little incentive to work when there's no woman for them at the end of it. So why not do as little work as possible, and play computer games instead? Why spend all that time becoming a doctor if women will walk past you to shag the bikers down the road instead?"

Because betas are not rational actors. This is the problem with 80s economics - they were also obsessed with their perception of humans as rational actors with access to good information. And so their theories were based on concepts like people will act to maximize their utility. This is just not true.

Betas don't know; they are fucking betas, if they knew better they wouldn't in their situation in the first place. They will still work hard because they will still BELIEVE that through doing so they maximize their chances of a happy life, happy wife.

Betas will still work hard because they will continue to believe that by earning their stable paycheck, they maximize their chances of getting a wife. They are neither rational actors nor INFORMED actors - the last part being key. If they believe the rules of the game still reward them participating in the economic system - and they do - they will continue to pull their weight.

Think about it like this - yes, some betas will stop being economic betas. But we live in a time of economic scarcity - more people need those jobs, more people are willing to take those jobs. Most men today are busting their ass to get their foot IN the door, not get their foot out the door.

Women aside, you still need to eat and live, you still have to earn to buy your gadgets and 3k PC battlestations and your volcano vape. Men will still be economically motivated. And because some men who reach the top economically will demonstrate sexual abundance, the belief that economic success gets you pussy will continue.

Betas are defined by and large by their willingness to buy into societal fictions and narratives. That's their main trait - they believe in spite of reality. There's hardly any pussy in being a stable provider as it is - if what little pussy there is dries up, they aren't going to change their behavior because society will continue to sell them the fiction that stability and sacrifice will get them pussy. And they'll believe it.

SOME of them, yes, they will wise up and either go herbivore or go move to thailand and fuck escorts, or whatever. But most will continue to spin their wheels in our current economic system, convincing themselves that if only they were to get that promotion or get that house or car, then they could get the girl. It's been 200000 years of betas being betas - why assume they are going to magically change in the 2020s?

[–]Hjalmbere0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

The tax payer can only support so many gender studies and feminist dance therapy majors. Eventually the SJW moochers will break the welfare system and the dutiful beta husband will make a comeback. Only the thickest bitches will opt for r-selection fathers if the state no longer is there for them as the beta provider.

[–]TheReformist945 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy

I hope you're wrong but i got a feeling you're right. It makes no difference if men drop out or all the betas drop out. They weren't getting fucked anyway. And women got tinder.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

The real problem is betas are still a dime a dozen. Even the hardest assed mgtow will most likely get pussy whipped from just a whiff.

When all the betas do out, or even 50% we may see a shift. But we're far from that.

My fat bearded ass can buy a pussy and change my gender and I'd still have at least 5 dudes per day that would bang and pretend I'm a woman. That's fucking sad.

[–]CosmicSpiral3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

It's a marginally good thing for game-informed individuals (the vast majority of dropouts are frustrated betas) and very bad for society in the long run.

[–]Hjalmbere2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Women don’t give a single fuck about average guys going MGTOW. Not. A. Single. Fuck.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Us alphas are watching out too. Things we do like disappearing and leaving them after 6 months once they dump their men. These are all intentional.

Alot of the time I had no idea the women has someone. We'd fuck, then I'd learn about the man. Then I'd have to think about how to get out of it.

Always goes in thinking that maybe this one will be different.

The worst and funniest part is these flings often leave me to get with some stable rich guy. They'd fuck me, but disrespect me often about my crappy life with a rented apartment and part time barista job.

Little did they know that I travel in to town for part time weekend work so I can take fun lessons in activities I enjoy after 5 days of hard real work. In reality I have a pretty respectful house across the river about 3 hours away and a pretty respectful life.

Some of it are.just women being stupid and really bad at determining a man's real worth.

[–]Linoran0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I appreciate the post but this is MGTOW and not red pill. Red pill's work around the problem.



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