Feminists: what do you think about male disposability?

[deleted] · Tue Jul 21 12:24:31 2015 UTC

[permanently deleted]

cuittler · 2015-07-21T15:30:02+00:00

Edit: shortened for brevity

Continuing on the matter of male disposability, one must also demand clear evidence for this and not mere speculation by viewing entrenched cultural attitudes as having a biologically fatalist etiology. Let us momentarily examine European culture from the Middle Ages onward. If women are valued more than men, why are sons valued more than daughters? Why do we see that it is not so bad if a mother dies in childbirth so long as a son and potential heir is saved? Why are women so easily interchangeable in such a society to the point that when a man’s wife died he quickly married another woman to see to his house and care for his children, which obviously were not her own? If men are disposable in such cultures, is there any evidence that women were any less disposable within the framework of their gender roles? Also, as we often see with MRAs like Ms. Straughan, she confuses the idea of men and women as classes of people with men and women as supersets of individuals with shared gender identities. The anecdotal evidence to say that this man was worth less than this woman, or vice versa, is mostly irrelevant to the anthropological and sociological claim about the status of men and women as classes. Can there truly be any doubt of women as the oppressed class?

As for the cultural argument, is there any evidence that culture has ensconced the view of male disposability? If we simply look at some of our most obvious cultural artifacts, such as religion, we see very clearly and without any doubt that in a place such as Europe from the Middle Ages to about a hundred years ago that theological and religious doctrine often painted women as objects and property. Any sober read of Christian scripture and Catholic catechism will elucidate that attitude. So if culture is a reflection of biological fatalism, and religious doctrine is an artifact of culture, then should we not see men as the oppressed class in religious literature? To say that men defending their property, including their women, against harm is the oppressive manner in which women manipulate men, is quite baffling a speculation to make, and flies in the face of any common sense.

It simply seems that while MRAs like Ms. Straughan insist that feminism is a war against men, it is some pathological projection on their own part, since their rhetoric seems to go at incredible, nay, absurdly unbelievable lengths to demonize women simply for even being born women. It’s a tidy little bit of circular reasoning and self-fulfilling prophecy, and it seems to have no basis in reality that convinces me, and I doubt that it can really convince anyone who isn’t looking to be convinced of such a narrative based on their own personal prejudices. The theory they present says far more about their own personal feelings than it says about culture, biology, gender, and oppression. And again I would require and even demand irrefutable evidence for such a frankly outrageous interpretation of history, culture, and biology.

X-post of an anthropologist on Karen Straughn/Male disposability

CursedLemon · 2015-07-21T13:15:20+00:00

The ironic part is that feminism is fighting to give women the same level of "disposability", yet men don't want to hear it.

GridReXX · 2015-07-21T12:42:44+00:00

In the sense that no one is going to take care of a grown man except his mother? Sure.

Hawanja · 2015-07-21T15:01:22+00:00

I think it's a load of shit, made up by men who are butthurt because society makes them like, get a job and everything.

anriana · 2015-07-21T12:50:29+00:00

Can you define what you mean by male disposability?

exit_sandman · 2015-07-22T00:24:12+00:00

I see male disposability as the other side of the sexism coin. While men are disposable for their money and abilities, women are seen as dispoable for their beauty and sexuality. Sexism is a two-way street and you can't really fathom the other side well enough unless you experience it yourself.

TRP will believe this is just the way life has to be and we have to deal with it, but I feel there's ways to mitigate both sexes' struggles so that we all can have a more level playing field when it comes to equal opportunity (discounting biological differences, of course).

Raiil · 2015-07-21T12:32:27+00:00

I think that there are some others who view men as disposable. Namely the crazy and the ones who don't like competition.

Xemnas81 · 2015-07-21T13:46:59+00:00

I'm not sure I understand the question. Are you asking how we feel about society treating young men as disposable? Are you asking if we believe this is a thing that society does? Are you asking if we think that treating men this way is compatible with feminism?

[deleted] · 2015-07-21T23:38:55+00:00

All women in history have faced death but not all men.

This is because with every childbirth, she faces death. Not all men go to battle or war.

(I'm generalizing - a small proportion of women were not fertile or their husbands were not fertile, so they never experienced pregnancy.)

In nature, women are disposable.

If you look at the state of women in some developing countries today, such as Pakistan, Papua New Guinea etc, women are definitely not valued over men. Men think they're kings in comparison to women. Women are not protected.

This viewpoint is seen in websites such 'Return of Kings" where men believe that masculinity means power over women.

Physically, I'd argue that women are the disposable sex. Pregnancy and childbirth are HARD on the body.

Yet throughout the ages, men have insisted upon impregnating girls whose bodies are far too underdeveloped to bear children. Protecting them? Yeah, right. Have no care whether their underdeveloped pelvises cracked apart during childbirth, more likely.

Women stayed pregnant or breastfeeding their entire fertile lives, dying soon after. With each pregnancy and birth, there was a risk of dying or serious physical damage. In the middle ages, doctors would break a woman's pelvis if the baby wouldn't come out. Or, if there was no doctor, her too-narrow pelvis might shatter by itself. The tissue between the vagina and colon can easily tear in childbirth, as still happens in third world countries today - leading to constant dribbling of faeces and urine - and infection leading to death. Any woman can also die during pregnancy, especially if her blood pressure rises too high or the embryo implants in the fallopian tube.

In 2013, 18 out of every 100,000 women in the US died in childbirth. It's risky and it used to be far, far riskier, especially considering how many pregnancies the average woman had prior to birth control and family planning.

Psychologically, women have borne a heavy weight. During raids, men and women and boys were killed. Girls too young to have had sex were often the only ones kept alive and taken as slaves or slaves to marry. Watching your whole family killed and then being taken away and raped by some disgusting, slobbering murderer? That's a fate worse than death and the girl would have rather died.

If she later displeased the man, she would have been sold as a slave.

In times of disaster or disease, women bear the brunt of it. They are the main caretakers of the sick, becoming ill themselves. This was in evidence during the recent ebola epidemic. In times of natural disaster, women suffer far more than men - as was in evidence during Hurricane Katrina and the 2004 boxing day tsunami. Up to three times as many women as men died in that tsunami. They get less of the resources, have had less of the education that would help their survival (such as learning how to swim), and are trying to protect children and the elderly. Family members might also save a male over a female, males being seen as more important.

In the refugee camps after a disaster, women and girls are likely to be raped and killed by males. Men also sometimes abandon their families and use relief money and resources for themselves after a disaster. There is also unequal distribution of resources, headed by males.

I've said before on this forum that women have a core of steel, and the history of women is why. This is exactly why women are psychologically strong and why they mature early. because they've had to.

[deleted] · 2015-07-22T16:04:14+00:00

As technology gets more & more advanced, men are becoming more & more disposable. Their superior physical attributes that helped first build civilization are being rendered null & void by machines that can do the work in a fraction of the time & effort. Those machines are just as easily operated by a woman as they are a man.

Unless they're offering/ providing something, Men aren't seen as valuable a human being as women are.

Title	Feminists: what do you think about male disposability?
Author	thats_not_what_i_hea
Upvotes	6
Comments	117
Date	July 21, 2015 11:55 AM UTC (10 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/3e28n2/feminists_what_do_you_think_about_male/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/feminists-what-do-you-think-about-male.280863 https://theredarchive.com/post/280863

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