Is the denial of sex in a relationship emotional abuse? I asked 38 people if denial of sex in a relationship was a form of "emotional abuse" here are the results.

HeNeverLies4 · 2015-01-24T17:06:01+00:00

Here is the link to my blog post, and here is the direct link to the imgur album. Do you believe denial sex in a relationship is a form of emotional abuse?...

[–]OccamsRaiser19 points20 points21 points 11 years ago (55 children) | Copy Link

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But if she likes sex with her husband/boyfriend but on occasion has a headache, cramps, is tired, or has any other reason to not want to have sex--that's not abusive.

I would argue that that is not the generic use of the term "withholding sex."

"Withholding" means you could give it, but you're not. It implies an expectation. It means that you are aware of a need, that you have the means to meet the need, but are unwilling to do so despite the knowledge and the means.

If I can't give something, I'm not withholding. I don't have anything to give, so no one would have an expectation that I would. A medical condition that prevents sex, for example, would be a case of someone not having sex to give.

Likewise, I'm not "withholding" if there is no request of aforementioned agreement.

I have money in the bank. If I don't pay my rent, I'm withholding my money from my landlord. But I'm not automatically "withholding" just because I still have money in the bank. I am under no obligation to give away my money.

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[–]chasingstatueszion was part of the matrix-1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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I was saying the latter, though I will caveat that "tired" and "any other reason" seem to be the go-to excuses when one partner isn't interested in sex. If someone is always too tired to have sex, but not too tired to otherwise have a normal life, I start to question their "tiredness."

As I mentioned elsewhere, it's like people's exercise habits (or lack thereof).

I used to go to the gym almost religiously, because I knew the only way to gain and maintain the benefits associated with exercise was to actually get my ass to the gym. Yes, there were a (very) few times when I couldn't work out, for whatever reason (way too tired, sick, work deadline, etc), but I knew better than to allow myself to not go just because I didn't feel like it at that moment.

Many women, it seems, get "tired" at just the thought of having sex. Not so tired, though, that they can't watch a movie or talk about what's on their mind or whatever else catches their interest. Kinda like people who always complain that they are too tired to go to the gym. It probably has less to do with actual tiredness and more to do with a general lack of interest and a preference for indolence. Unless they have a medical condition.

the constant, intentional withholding of sex for manipulative means.

Which, to my knowledge, is fairly rare. I would assert that most of the constant withholding of sex is neither intentional nor manipulative. It's mostly just negligence and disinterest.

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[–]powerkickPoly, Bi, Blue, Betafag2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link

[–]nomdplumeFormer Alpha4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago* (6 children) | Copy Link

Yay! Can always count on you for excessive levels of drama and subsequent strawmanning.

SMH

When people talk about a partner withholding sex, they are never referring to "that one time she had diarrhea and said no." Ever.

Notice the OPs question. No one seemed to think "withholding sex" fell into that category.

"Withholding sex" means that you could have sex, but choose not to. No one considers someone who is medically unable to have sex, or whose condition would make sex unreasonably unpleasant, as "withholding sex." Anymore than someone can accuse their spouse of "withholding sex" when their spouse is away on a business trip in another city (well, I suppose they could, but they wouldn't convince very many people).

As I said above, someone who has no money in their bank account is not "withholding rent" from their landlord. They just can't make the rent.

So stop with the hyperbolic hypotheticals, and think about addressing the actual issue that many people are trying to address.

EDIT: My point before was - someone is going to be a doormat. Why should it be the man and not the woman? Just for the sake of argument, of course.

AND

Not to mention that you're putting all other dating prospects at least on hold in order to focus on this one person.

If you think that is the definition of a monogamous relationship, I think you need to update your definitions.

When people talk about humans being monogamous (or not) as a species, they are referring to the fact that humans mate for life.

The "putting other options on hold" is generally not considered a monogamous approach. At best, it's probably serial monogamy, but it's a stretch to call it even that...

I don't think anyone's marital vows include the clause "to put all other options on hold while we are together", but I, of course, can't be sure...

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A common theme I'm seeing is that a lot of people in this thread think that they can change people to suit them and the world doesn't work like that.

I absolutely agree with that.

But it's not about changing people. It's about the conversation that exists that withholding sex is not abuse.

If beating your spouse was not seen as abusive, what impetus would spouse-beaters have to restrain themselves?

"Yeah, getting beat sucks, but it's not abuse. It's on you to walk away, not on them to stop. It's not like they are abusing you or anything..."

I would opine that people who have no incentive to stop what they are doing won't stop.

One of the biggest "code of honor" things among men is "You don't hit a woman." No matter how much she pisses you off, no matter what she says or does, you don't hit a woman (except in self-defense, of course - and then you just get shit for getting beaten up by a girl).

Why do you think that is? Because it is universally accepted that a man hitting a woman, particularly one he is romantically involved with, is abuse.

I promise you, if that conversation wasn't in place, there would be a lot more domestic violence (for evidence, look at cultures where a man beating his wife is NOT universally condemned as abuse). It's not somehow "natural" for a man to not be violent against women.

Instead, men have to learn to express themselves and negotiate with their partners without resorting to violence. It puts the onus on them to come up with alternatives.

Same with sex. If everyone saw the deprivation of sex for one partner in a marriage/LTR as abuse, rather than just unfortunate, unkind, or even the natural progression of monogamous relationships, the "withholding" partner would feel a lot more pressure to find an alternative solution.

I'm talking about changing the conversation, not the people. We collectively can't do anything about the individual. We can do something about the conversation, which might impact greatly the behavior of the individual.

Not wanting to have sex doesn't always necessitate abuse, no matter how much it hurts you.

How much hurt does someone have to endure before it becomes abusive?

You can't force a person to have sex, so the relationship has to end.

I can't force them, but I can find ways to motivate them to engage in finding solutions. Honestly, I have no interest in forcing anyone to do anything.

If all of sudden, though, one partner was to take the issue pretty damned seriously, I bet that a suitable resolution could be found.

The problem with a sexless relationship is that one party is getting everything they want/need (apparently) while the other party isn't. Getting everything you want/need in a relationship, while feeling completely justified in doing so and simultaneously feeling no threat from the outside, isn't going to provide any motivation to expend effort or energy to change.

In my marriage, for example, I can't say (with any power, at any rate) that I am going to leave if my wife doesn't have sex with me. She would predict, with about 99% accuracy, that I was bluffing. She knows that I stand to lose too much to ever follow through (that includes, by the way, my love for her, which I don't want to lose).

To further ensure an accurate assessment of the situation, she threatens that, if I were to engage in an extramarital affair, she would leave (I also think that she is bluffing, but that's a bluff I'm not wanting to call even if it is). So she can rest assured that I'm not going anywhere, regardless of what actions she does or does not take. If I protest in any way, or try to deliver an ultimatum, she would feel confident calling my bluff.

That's why TRP pushes men to constantly be improving themselves and cultivating their own lives, separate from their spouses, in order to (first) be the kind of man a woman is inspired to stay married to, and (second) to introduce a question mark regarding your ability to walk away.

That sounds harsh, but I know for my wife (for example), it's just a matter of priorities. It's not like she intentionally wants me to suffer, or even that she doesn't know that I'm suffering. It's just that, on the balance, my suffering is not as high a priority for her as several other things in her life. If something has to give, sex is one of the first things on her plate to go.

So while I don't want to force her into having sex (ugh, yuck), I would like to encourage her to make it a priority. So far, my encouragements are insufficient. Perhaps if I could convince her that what she is doing is not just unfortunate, but abusive, she might see it in a different light. It's one of the ways I can think of to make her take the issue more seriously.

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However, if you had a relationship specifically structured such that the only way for your husband to get to the doctor was for you to give him a ride (I get that that is quite the hypothetical, but...), and you consistently failed to get him to the doctor when he asked you to take him (for whatever reason - you had to work late, you were already taking the kids somewhere, your car was always out of gas, you didn't see anything wrong with him and didn't really think he was sick, whatever), that might be considered "abusive." Especially if harm was to come to him because he wasn't able to get to the doctor when he needed to.

My sexless marriage was not a result of my wife purposefully attempting to inflict harm on me. But I attribute the lack of sex and intimacy in my marriage (and my life) as a major contributor (along with some other things) to a bout of severe clinical depression.

My wife didn't want to hurt me. She even saw and acknowledged that I was hurting. She just didn't get that my hurting could actually be because of a lack of sex and intimacy in my life, or that she had any responsibility in what was happening to me. 'Cause she doesn't relate like not having sex/intimacy is a big deal. It's just not a priority for her, at this point in her life (it was when she was younger, but not now).

She wasn't trying to abuse me, but her distancing herself from me sexually and intimately had a major impact on my quality of life, on my self-esteem, on my ability to function normally as an emotional being.

I think it might be useful to look at that as "abusive" rather than "unfortunate" or even "the ways things go", and to implicate the denying in the problem as well as the one being denied (I felt like I was the one with the problem the whole time, and I still do, mostly).

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Why assume it's always a woman?

Well, in this instance, I'm not assuming it's a woman. I know it's a woman. I'm married to her.

I'm referring to my own situation in these posts.

I am in a divorce and while this was not part of the issues surrounding it

So sex was not a problem in your marriage. Bully for you.

the occasional sexual slow downs were caused either by me giving birth

Medical exemption to the "withholding sex" issue.

or him not feeling like sex. I never considered this abuse.

Sounds like him not feeling like sex wasn't a problem for you, so, ergo, not abuse. If you don't feel like the unavailability of sex in your marriage doesn't impact you emotionally or psychologically, then, yes, it wouldn't be abuse.

My wife could hit me several times, as hard as she could (she's fairly petite), and I wouldn't consider it abuse. I'm a big guy, I used to be a fighter, I can brush off most of what gets thrown at me. My first thought in that situation would not be "she's abusing me!" (not that either of us have ever raised a hand to the other, but I can't imagine casting myself as the "abused husband" in that scenario)

I'm pretty much down for sex any time with a committed long term partner and a lot of men are not like that.

A lot? I know a lot of guys who are sexually frustrated in their marriages, and I've read a lot about sexless marriages, and the problem is overwhelmingly dominated by women withholding from their husbands.

Does the opposite occur? Absolutely. But it's a minority instance, for sure.

The whole conversation regarding withholding sex and it's implications is entirely different for the different genders. There is a reason for that.

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

This is a very BP position, though.

Let us assume that the woman (it usually is a woman) who denies sex to her partner doesn't do so for medical or psychological reasons, but because she isn't really attracted to him anymore.

This situation all too often comes with an unhealthy relationship dynamic (not being attracted to your partner anymore => being unhappy in your relationship => harboring some resentment for your partner) - do you think that with that dynamic, the spouse would agree with her partner getting his sexual outlets elsewhere? Because in my experience, that resentment rather takes on possessive forms "I don't really want him, but that doesn't mean he isn't still mine!!!"

Of course you may argue that such a self-centered person is a bad partner to begin with (and I would agree), but it's often these self-centered persons who produce these situations in the first place.

[–]nomdplumeFormer Alpha1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Of course you may argue that such a self-centered person is a bad partner to begin with (and I would agree), but it's often these self-centered persons who produce these situations in the first place.

For this conversation, I would opine that even "good" (other-centered) partners can become self-centered in some areas and at some times.

Especially if there is no external motivation encouraging them to not be self-centered.

Which is what BPers seem to be taking issue with. Withholding sex should not be categorized as abuse, because then the withholder is accountable to a moral structure that interferes with their feeeeelz about what they are doing.

My wife is an overall great and loving person and partner, but in this particular area, she got out of her depth and is quite self-centered - she has no context for what is going on, other than "it's to be expected" and "men and women are just like that"...

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This is a very valid point.

I think this circumstance is heavily dependent on the amount of time, though. If someone can't handle a couple dry weeks every once in a blue moon, then I think they're being sensitive/entitled.

On the other hand, I've been in relationships that started out with asinine amounts of sex, and shriveled up around the year mark into being sexless. I was on the cut-off end of the deal and after months and months of trying everything I could, it started to make the relationship spiral. Looking back I can see now that he just had a low libido, but at the time knowing or not knowing that would have made no difference. I had a high libido and was being completely cut-off and given no alternatives. In that sense, yes it was abusive and it definitely was one of the major factors in the relationship not being salvageable.

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Isn't that somewhat subjective?

People interpret love in different ways (see the five different love languages) as an anecdotal example my so could cuddle, kiss etc me all he likes but if he doesn't tell me he loves me I wont feel loved, my love language is words of affirmation, conversely his love language is touch, I could give him everything in the world and recite every love poem known to man but if I'm not having sex with him he doesn't feel loved therefore I know that if I withhold sex I'm withholding love, if I withhold sex intentionally I would consider that emotional abuse because I'm intentionally making him feel unloved.

In answer to the OP question I would say it depends on the reasons for withholding and the relationship dynamic, withholding from someone who sees sex as a loving act to get what you want, as disgusting amounts of women do, is in my opinion emotional abuse.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago* (28 children) | Copy Link

In regard to number nine I think that's a pretty flippant attitude to take.

Obviously the presumption here is that the relationship is long term/serious/marriage. Oh course no one is entitled to have sex with another person, but if you have entered a long term, monogamous relationship then you have some responsibility to meet your partner halfway unless the relationship was founded with the understanding that sex would be rare or nonexistent. This person has agreed cease all sexual contact with anyone other than you and you have a responsibly to at least meet them halfway. Unless of course you don't care about or value their needs.

So yes, as a BP woman, I think that denying sex can be a form of emotional abuse. If it's long term, or for unreasonable reasons, but especially both, then I think so. If it's a problem of mis-matched libido (as oppsed to just wanting to say no) then the couple is not an ideal match and should reconsider either the monogamy, each other, or the necessity of their desires.

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Is this a joke?

Ok...To start. I already said that sex is not an entitlement. So no, no one is ENTITLED to it. Let me repeat, no, someone is not ENTITLED TO SEX WITH THEIR PARTNER.

What I did say is

If it's long term, or for unreasonable reasons, but especially both, then I think [it is emotional abuse]

Can you please explain how you garnered from my set up of the denial being both long term, and being unreasonable, that I must have meant that I expect someone in a relationship who has recently broken their leg to continue to preform sexually for their partner?

Oh...Wait.

You didn't. You were just trying to discredit my point of view by coming up with an extreme case that barely even clung to my stance in the first place.

To summarize; yes shit DOES happen and DOES interfere with relationships. And no, no one is ever ENTITLED to sex, EVER. That (in a relationship) is generally not long term, but even if so it certainly never UNREASONABLE.

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[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (21 children) | Copy Link

Obviously the presumption here is that the relationship is long term/serious/marriage. Oh course no one is entitled to sex with another person, but if you have entered a long term, monogamous relationship then you have some responsibility to meet your partner halfway unless the relationship was founded with the understanding that sex would be rare or nonexistent. This person has agreed cease all sexual contact with anyone other than you and you have a responsibly to at least meet them halfway. Unless of course you don't care about or value their needs.

This is true. Ding ding ding we have a winner. However, I'd even go further and say that you don't have a responsibility to have sex 'halfway'. Nobody has a responsibility to do anything, entitlement sucks. Nobody owes anyone else anything and nobody should be expected to do things they don't want to. However, if you don't WANT to make your partner happy, and you don't try to, then you should not be surprised if they decide they would like to be with someone else who does.

So yes, as a BP woman, I think that denying sex can be a form of emotional abuse. If it's long term, or for unreasonable reasons, but especially both, then I think so. If it's a problem of mis-matched libido (as oppsed to just wanting to say no) then the couple is not an ideal match and should reconsider either the monogamy, each other, or the necessity of their desires.

Emphasized this for agreement.

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I agree in theory but the truth is that in reality a respectful approach does not leave room for the kind of discussions you are advocating. Seriously.

"I would like to have sex/cuddles/board games more" == entitled attitude.

"I don't think I can be in a relationship if my needs aren't being met" == threats to get what you want.

"We need to have a discussion to talk about meeting each other halfway" == a demand for sacrifice and an appeal to duty.

"Please..I do X....why can't you just do more Y"== A hidden expectation and a covert contract that represents transactionality of effection

ALL of these statements might be valid from the perspective of the unsatisfied partner, but the expression of ANY of them represents unhealthy pr manipulative attitudes about relationships and absolutely won't lead to meaningful change in a partner because of how freaking selfish and nagging they sound.

The ONLY non-manipulative response to someone who doesn't desire to make you happy is to non-judgementally and non-angrily accept it and to exit immediately and find someone who does. Any OTHER "working for the relationship" tactic is aimed at changing their attitude or behavior from the status quo to be what you want them to be instead of what they are. In other domains, We call attempts to change the behaviors of others against their will "manipulative".

Any "tactic" or "discussion" to try to changw someone is manipulative. The ONLY respectful response to neglect or negative behavior is to graciously walk away. It says they can do what they want with their lives no judgement but they can't expect you to remain unhappy for their sake.

Of course, many times this happens humans can subconsciously sense the preparations being made for our neglected partners to walk before it actually gets to that point and this causes us to reconsider their needs out of subconscious fear of loss, ending the problem and re-establishing a temporary balance.

Red Pillers often advocate intentionally spurring this effect as a way of manipulating their partners (the infamous "Dread game") but even though I support it as the most respectful alternative to nagging and begging and guilt tripping, I don't support it at all unless it's ACTUALLY sincere and not a game. Practing dread is only not manipulative and gross if you ACTUALLY feel neglected enough to leave and are actually intending on amicably doing so. If you're just bluffing, creating distance to gain power over your partner (as RP sometimes advocates) then you are a manipulative little shit.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

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[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link

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[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Red Pillers often advocate intentionally spurring this effect as a way of manipulating their partners (the infamous "Dread game") but even though I support it as the most respectful alternative to nagging and begging and guilt tripping, I don't support it at all unless it's ACTUALLY sincere and not a game. Practing dread is only not manipulative and gross if you ACTUALLY feel neglected enough to leave and are actually intending on amicably doing so. If you're just bluffing, creating distance to gain power over your partner (as RP sometimes advocates) then you are a manipulative little shit.

This is also why I wouldn't label "constant unbacked threats to coerce your partner into getting things done your way" as "dread game", and even if I did, it would be a very poor variety of it.

Which is also what bluepillers get totally wrong - a reaction I got more than once when relaying the story of a friend of mine in an unhappy relationship was something along the lines of "lol that girl dreadgamed him like a pro" from some wisecrackers who considered themselves smarter than they actually were - totally ignoring that she ultimately dug her own grave with that approach and apart from that wasn't really happy in a relationship were everything went her way (apart from the stuff my friend had little control over, like instantly getting a six figure-job).

[–]nomdplumeFormer Alpha0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]nomdplumeFormer Alpha0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

Except that isn't including the end of my post where I said that if there is a problem in the first place than the couple needs to reevaluate a multitude of variables.

Except one member of the couple doesn't see a problem. If they don't see a problem, the partner who does see a problem is seen as a nag and "needy".

Why should one partner have to invest time and energy into a non-problem created by their partners neuroses? Especially when there are all kinds of places in life that are presenting real problems and demanding time and energy from that partner?

Only one partner has real motivation to address the problem.

I agree that both partners should be working on problems in the relationship. But since each partner can only take action for themselves, that limits their ability to achieve joint resolutions...

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[–]wazzup987Blue pill, you can beat me black & blue for it later[🍰] -1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]MissPearlEditor of frequent typos.0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]masterrodPops all pills when necessary. And keeps a heavy stash of RPs.0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]wazzup987Blue pill, you can beat me black & blue for it later[🍰] -1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago* (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]powerkickPoly, Bi, Blue, Betafag-1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]wazzup987Blue pill, you can beat me black & blue for it later[🍰] -1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]powerkickPoly, Bi, Blue, Betafag0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

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[–]wazzup987Blue pill, you can beat me black & blue for it later[🍰] 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS-2 points-1 points0 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Is the denial of sex in a relationship emotional abuse? I asked 38 people if denial of sex in a relationship was a form of "emotional abuse" here are the results.

Comments

9 is a meaningless platitude spewed by a one-trick pony.