Is society misleading men about what women want?

ArkiF · 2014-12-06T03:34:08+00:00

I think there might be a big difference in what young women want/expect and what older women want/expect.

In terms of young women, I think they:

.. expect to work and don't expect men to shoulder all the financial weight.
... like sexually attractive 'hot' men.
... like fun and being with their peer group.
... expect men to treat them well.
.... don't expect status, power and ambition in a man unless they desire status, power and ambition for themselves (with exceptions - cultural groups, traditionally-minded girls, other individuals etc)
... like strengths such physical strength - might not care about intelligence as much unless she is very intelligent herself. Might not be mature enough to spot signals of psychological strength.
..like Dependability, loyalty, trustworthiness
... like General masculine traits toughness, being able to take care of shit, independence (not so sure about leadership. And most young women don't want to be led by their boyfriend)
... might go for an emotionally unstable man if her homelife was unstable.

relationshipdownvote · 2014-12-06T16:46:13+00:00

It's the dichotomy between what you hear women say and what the actually want.

"I don't care that much about looks"
"Money doesn't matter to me"
"I don't want a man with a lot of muscles"
"I want a guy who does stuff for me"
"I want to be friends with the guy first"
"I don't really like manly men"
"I don't like to play games"

Is all basically wrong.

Also the advice given

"Just be yourself"
"Be confident"
"Just be nice to her"
"She'll notice you eventually"
"You'll find someone eventually"

is all terrible advice, absolutely awful.

[deleted] · 2014-12-06T01:23:43+00:00

Yeah, there's plenty of bad advice out there but for the most part it's pretty obvious how to be attractive. Be confident, work out, make money, be funny, etc.

YetAnotherCommenter · 2014-12-06T04:14:52+00:00

Think about when the young guy comes home in tears because his first high school GF broke up with him.

What does his mother tell him?

"But you're a nice guy. You'll find the perfect woman in time!"

What do many women tell men when they break up with them?

"You're a nice guy. Of course there's a woman out there who's perfect for you!"

You bring up some great examples with 50 Shades of Grey etc, but do remember that only quite recently have romance novels been subjected to much analysis... or even given much regard as a barometer of female desire. Previous discussion of romance novels was often monopolized by feminists who argued that they were created by the patriarchy to train women into wanting gender-traditional relationships, after all.

I think there's also an overarching cultural belief that women have a more cerebral, more emotional, less "animalistic" sexuality than men, which sort of underpins things. For a long time we've seen male sexuality as rather Hobbesian... Nasty, Brutish and (disappointingly) Short. Female sexuality is framed as the inverse. This helps perpetuate the whole "nice guy" thing.

Certainly in our current social climate, I'd be more likely to say that men are sent very mixed, inconsistent messages rather than being outright misled... however, if we want to start having a more honest conversation about the nature of female desire, women are going to have to relinquish some flattering stereotypes.

exit_sandman · 2014-12-06T01:22:49+00:00

The importance of 4 and 7 is jazzed to such an extent that one could get the impression these were the only thing that mattered. 3 is also pretty popular ("he has to make me laugh!"). 1 is valued to some extent, but more out of necessity than because it's supposed to be sexy.

I disagree on 2, 5 and 8 - if anything these are the most important for being considered widely desirable yet their importance is consistently downplayed. Your characterization of item 6 is too ambivalent to say something definitive.

Also, regarding what specifically women tend to say...

RP_Student · 2014-12-06T02:24:31+00:00

Number 4 is the one that most on TRP would disagree with. Women who are looking for ltrs/spouses value being treated well. Girls who are looking to hookup with the "hottest" guy are more likely to desire to be treated neither well nor poorly. The theory goes that girls, who are the guardians of sex, have to feel that the guy they're hooking up with is the hottest they could do at that time. If the guy is treating the girl really well he is sending a message that she is the best he can do and therefore he is not the best she can do. Therefore, TRP generally advises taking girls on an emotional roller coaster, so to speak, when picking them up. You shouldn't be an asshole at all times but rather ignore her and give her a little shit at times to make it clear that her status is not above yours. In my experience, this theory holds up.

southwer · 2014-12-06T02:46:02+00:00

4) Treats the woman well, is caring and empathetic towards his woman (I don't think society misleads men about this, I'd say there are plenty of messages to this effect).

the problem here comes when many men think "treating them well" means supplication, jumping when they call, being afraid of their anger and all kinds of beta behaviors. Men are rarely shown how a MAN treats a women well and maintains attraction

fchs · 2014-12-06T00:42:49+00:00

Your list seems pretty accurate. A mix of some of the stuff RP advocates (1, 2, 5, 8) and some of the stuff it advises against and labels as "beta" (3, 4, 7)

I think people are generally terrible at giving other people advice on how to be attractive. I've seen people say that women deliberately mislead men by saying things like "just be yourself", like it's some kind of conspiracy. That seems flat out ridiculous, it's much more likely that they don't know anything about you and are providing generic feed-good answers. This is definitely the case on reddit, where nobody really knows each other's personality/characteristics outside of the website.

Personally I don't know what specific traits I find attractive, just whether an individual woman is attractive or not. I wouldn't want a woman to follow my advice because it's going to be generic and I can't pinpoint exactly what I want.

[deleted] · 2014-12-06T02:25:20+00:00

1 is only relevant for getting married. Not having sex with attractive women en masse. 2 and 3 are certainly relevant. 4 is not relevant at all to attracting sexually attractive women. In fact, I'd say at least 60-70% of the men who are part of the 20% that have 80% of the sex with attractive women don't give a flying fuck about women's feelings. 5 is the most relevant point on your list. 6 to me just coincides with 2. 7 is irrelevant in terms of having sex, it is only relevant when it comes to marriage and being a provider. 8 coincides with 2.

lev21pirate · 2014-12-06T16:02:26+00:00

Firstly ,On a general note: I find that every month or so , something pops up in the media about the plight of women. The recent street harassment video. That porn star vs War-machine conjugal violence thing. The Roger "The trigger" Elliott thing and a bunch of other rape stories, I'm sure , to which I've become desensitized.

These stories push notions about the world women live in that are completely unrelated to facts on top of blurring issues;The street harassment viral video being used to push the 1-in-4 women will be sexually assaulted statistic, for example.

Any moderately conscientious young men exposed to these views (Daily); At school & in the media , will develop a detrimental and overly cautious approach when courting women.

Which bring me to my second point.

On a personal level; One thing I hear a lot is that women want an assertive and confident men. I also often hear that women want to be treated as equals by men. I find these two things contradicting in some critical aspect of courtship & relationships.

Confidence and assertiveness aren't easily decipherable traits. It may not be a constant attribute and will be applicable only in certain situations.

One can be assertive over dissenting opinions and confident when faced with adversity; In other words when being shit-tested. It is misleading to tell men to respect women's opinions if their views are deliberately absurd as to test a man's resolve.

These, I think, are the most obvious way society misleads men.

exit_sandman · 2014-12-06T17:39:15+00:00

I think what women want is on display in media directed at women, say in something like 50 Shades of Grey.

Didn't even register that gem - if anything, this particular case speaks against your presentation. How old is 50 SoG? A meager three years old. Does anyone remember the controvery in the media surrounding the books, how crass they supposedly were; all the discussions about how the success of them shows that a lot of women on a visceral level indeed desire to be dominated?

Doesn't the fact that this realization was treated as something outrageous, as something nigh-inconceivable - in 2011, mind you - indicate that these insights actually were far away from being considered consensus or common sense?

Being told something in the late 20s or early 30s which by then one has already figured out oneself the hard way isn't exactly helpful, tyvm.

fiat_lux_ · 2014-12-06T00:40:59+00:00

1) Earns enough money to support a family (I don't think society misleads men about this, if anything female attraction to money is exaggerated).

I don't have time now to go through each, but this is already overshooting. Approximately only 20% of individuals make enough money nowadays to keep up with the average household.

The average household needs two working parents to stay above the P50 marker.

You want women to work, right? Same here. Everyone deserves the right to work... but that comes with consequences.

The consequence being that as everyone is working and making more money, the standards are raised across the map. Dual Income families start becoming the new standard for the average household. Single Income families are going to be left behind as they're competing for houses/apartments (and the other benefits that property brings, like good school districts), goods/services, etc with the dual income fams.

Don't expect the average man to make enough money to support a family anymore.

TheScamr · 2014-12-06T06:00:37+00:00

Women want excitement. Dangerous men are exciting to immature women the same way crazy woman are exciting to young men.

[deleted] · 2014-12-06T11:47:12+00:00

Women and groups that represent women are saying what they want - then advertisers, media outlets and politicians give it to them.

I was in a bikram yoga studio after hours the other night. The women's changing area is much more pleasant than the mens.

I saw some idiot getting a a take away coffee from his gf the other day, the way he ordered it for her and out the cover on it for here was just so supplicating ... I was reminded of the relationship between a butler and and his rich employer - the difference being the butler knows he's a butler.

Also women have been socializing gender roles in to children all along - then whenever these roles backfire or become inconvenient, usually due to technology negating their advantages, men as a group are blamed and oppression is alleged.

Women want their gender class system and often misinterpret being treated equally as misogny.

[deleted] · 2014-12-06T20:40:45+00:00

Considering this highly-upvoted pile of nonsense, I'd say TRP misleads men about what women want.

Title	Is society misleading men about what women want?
Author	myfatbrokethewall
Upvotes	12
Comments	69
Date	December 6, 2014 12:26 AM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/2oezij/is_society_misleading_men_about_what_women_want/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/is-society-misleading-men-about-what-women-want.284182 https://theredarchive.com/post/284182

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