Redpillers: If I'm happy and my boyfriend is happy, then why do you care?

fhqwhgads_ · 2013-11-18T16:52:02+00:00

TRP is infamous for showing case studies of people who are betas or are demonstrating other non-TRP behaviour. They regularly insult other people's...

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[–]mrsamsa8 points9 points10 points 12 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

I'm curious how you seek to define something you clearly want no part in? Clearly you have misunderstandings to it and if you want to clear up on being wrong, cool. Open mind is always better.

Okay let's try that. I got told by a couple of red pillers yesterday that if a guy isn't dominant in a relationship, then no woman could ever respect him and any relationship he's in will result in both him and his partner being miserable.

No red piller attempted to contradict them and they received a number of upvotes.

TBP defines itself in this manner saying it's parody.

The subreddit of TBP is a parody, yes.

Also how many of my posts are you going to try and reply to to try and bait me?

"Bait you"? I'm having a discussion with you.

This is the last I will respond to from you until I see some serious mental growth in your responses that indicate you are interested in actually listening to answers.

Look, I have given you a lot of my time already and if you want to continue to refuse to listen to any other opinion besides your own then that is your choice - just don't try to pretend that I'm the one who is refusing to take part in civil discussion.

You are not as civil as you claim

But I am. I always give people the benefit of the doubt and I always approach every interaction with people as if it's my first discussion with them. I extend the olive branch and I attempt to reason with them.

When they show no sign of civility or attempt to engage in polite discussion with me, then I am far less willing to extend to them the full courtesies of interaction. This means I can be short with them, or blunt, but always civil.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

No red piller attempted to contradict them and they received a number of upvotes.

I think 'contradict' has two different methods. Whomever it was may not have been added directly but many 'red pillers' offered their own stories. If thy had nothing to add and agreed, they upvoted someone for saying what was on their mind and their opinion.

The subreddit of TBP is a parody, yes.

So it's inflammatory and reactionary, grouping a bunch of people in the same thought while condemning a bunch for doing the same. I mean it's cool and all but it's hypocrisy to claim otherwise. Not just TRP either, RPW as well.

"Bait you"? I'm having a discussion with you.

So far yes, and you've shown some ideas of your own and that's fine. So I am allowing it to continue for now. If I get a sense otherwise it will cease. I've done the same to PMs as well. The moment it gets past the 'causal discussion around a fire' feel with hostility I just drop it. But I based that on the individual.

[–]mrsamsa4 points5 points6 points 12 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

I think 'contradict' has two different methods. Whomever it was may not have been added directly but many 'red pillers' offered their own stories. If thy had nothing to add and agreed, they upvoted someone for saying what was on their mind and their opinion.

But the point is that no red piller came out to say: "That's not true". I don't care if they have their own stories, it doesn't change the veracity of the claim.

So it's inflammatory and reactionary, grouping a bunch of people in the same thought while condemning a bunch for doing the same. I mean it's cool and all but it's hypocrisy to claim otherwise. Not just TRP either, RPW as well.

Your comparison doesn't make sense. TRP tells people how to behave and attacks anyone for disagreeing with them - they also throw in a whole lot of misogyny and rape apologism. TBP says that it's idiotic to think the world has to operate the way you want it to, different people can make different choices and still be happy - also, misogyny and rape is bad.

There is no hypocrisy. Nobody on TBP is criticising people for choosing to be in traditional relationships. Hell, I'd wager a significant portion of the TBP userbase are currently in traditional relationships and even vigorously defend them.

So far yes, and you've shown some ideas of your own and that's fine. So I am allowing it to continue for now. If I get a sense otherwise it will cease. I've done the same to PMs as well. The moment it gets past the 'causal discussion around a fire' feel with hostility I just drop it. But I based that on the individual.

There is no baiting on my end. If you perceive as much, you would be best to either point out what you think is "baiting" so I can correct you, or you can figure out why you misunderstanding me.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

But the point is that no red piller came out to say: "That's not true". I don't care if they have their own stories, it doesn't change the veracity of the claim.

Why bother? It's how they feel as the individual. Other viewpoints were expressed by other posts. Perhaps we just don't get so worked up over correcting and just offer other paths. What you take or disregard is up to you. I am just hesitant to see the purpose in only countering and contradicting without it turning into a 2 year old tennis match.

Your comparison doesn't make sense. TRP tells people how to behave and attacks anyone for disagreeing with them - they also throw in a whole lot of misogyny and rape apologism

The 'rape apologism' is your opinion and interpretation of what's said. Doesn't mean that's what intended. Again, I am from the RPW spectrum and don't see that so I won't comment on it.

There is no hypocrisy. Nobody on TBP is criticising people for choosing to be in traditional relationships.

Untrue as quotes were already posted that blatantly attack RPW for such things as 'obviously being a bunch of men', 'no women calls herself female' and of course there was the knocks on posting recipes when we can just 'go to a cooking sub'.

If you perceive as much, you would be best to either point out what you think is "baiting" so I can correct you,

I had 'best' do I will so long as it maliciously harms none. Anything other then that is above and beyond and my own choice to do so if I wish.

[–]mrsamsa1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Why bother? It's how they feel as the individual. Other viewpoints were expressed by other posts.

Why bother? Because this discussion is about red pillers who are tired of people "misrepresenting" them and I suggested that if you don't like the image people have of TRP, then they should make an effort to publicly counter such beliefs.

If you aren't concerned with the public image then my comments have nothing to do with you.

Perhaps we just don't get so worked up over correcting and just offer other paths. What you take or disregard is up to you.

If it was simply "different paths" then TBP wouldn't even exist. There's no disagreement over people choosing to live their lives however they like.

I am just hesitant to see the purpose in only countering and contradicting without it turning into a 2 year old tennis match.

But obviously the point isn't to necessarily convince the other person, and instead it's to demonstrate that the red pill belief being espoused is not common to all red pillers.

The 'rape apologism' is your opinion and interpretation of what's said. Doesn't mean that's what intended.

No, it's really not. People literally say "I raped a girl" and commenters support him. There is no interpretation required as they even use the word 'rape'.

Untrue as quotes were already posted that blatantly attack RPW for such things as 'obviously being a bunch of men', 'no women calls herself female' and of course there was the knocks on posting recipes when we can just 'go to a cooking sub'.

But nobody has challenged the RPW lifetstyle. Many blue pillers live the same life so it makes no sense to challenge it.

I had 'best' do I will so long as it maliciously harms none. Anything other then that is above and beyond and my own choice to do so if I wish.

In other words, you have no reason or evidence that I have baited anyone (mostly because I obviously haven't). I'm not here to troll or provoke people into emotional reactions. I'm here to try to better understand other perspectives - but in doing so it doesn't mean I have to respect those perspectives.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Why bother? Because this discussion is about red pillers who are tired of people "misrepresenting" them

Well then I would suggest you explain yourself and ask questions better. Or just ask questions better. You might get better results than with all this anger and comparison to hate groups.

If it was simply "different paths" then TBP wouldn't even exist. There's no disagreement over people choosing to live their lives however they like.

Wrong... The following comment was in regards to a relationship that someone has:

]SpermJackalope 6 points 1 hour ago (7|1) He has her text him from work to see if she can eat a piece of cake on a coworker's birthday. Holy shit, I am so scared for her. I mean, that is a Thing in 24/7 D/s relationships, but this guy is the most obviously abusive dom OF ALL TIMES.

So in other words, slap a collar and shove in the kink closet or else it's abuse'. Heck.. at this point you can't even go that route. That's full on 'kink shaming' if I remember right. If they are in a Total Power Exchange then that set up is pretty par for course.

Their path, their rules. But of course "There's no disagreement over people choosing to live their lives however they like." That was just one of many.

it's to demonstrate that the red pill belief being espoused is not common to all red pillers.

Nope, we already know we are all different. Just as much as you claim TBP is all different. We are all individuals and it's not our job to pick and choose what someone holds true. It's called respecting the right of people to make choices for themselves. Obviously if they have something different to say than they do so past "Not uh!" If you actually read through you see many variations and outlooks. If all you are looking for is a divide to try and break apart people unashamed to express.. well don't hold your breath too hard. It does happen but it never seems to be noticed anyway. Not our job to point it out. That's the thing. It's not about leading people by nose it's letting them comes to terms themselves.

If all you want to see to validate your opinion is this:

People literally say "I raped a girl" and commenters support him. There is no interpretation required as they even use the word 'rape'.

Then that is all you will see, not looking into other posts where RPW's ripped down a comment where an man who claimed to be an Alpha for being violent. You are looking at a piece and screaming it's the whole picture. My question is why bother looking at it in the first place if it seems to bother you so much. There's no point. Unless you are willing to take a step back and see everything attached, don't bother. For the sake of you own blood pressure..

But nobody has challenged the RPW lifetstyle. Many blue pillers live the same life so it makes no sense to challenge it.

Already presented, addressed and proven false.

I'm here to try to better understand other perspectives - but in doing so it doesn't mean I have to respect those perspectives.

Clearly not if you need to add the later half. If black and white are all you see, then the other colors will never reach out to you. You address with aggression and self imposed superiority of this 'moral high ground', you have been disarmed of such because it only works so well as you getting a similar response. Perhaps if you look back and see the whole picture of what you are trying to defend you can turn and see the whole picture of what you attack and realize it's not all one shade as you think.

[–]mrsamsa1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Well then I would suggest you explain yourself and ask questions better. Or just ask questions better. You might get better results than with all this anger and comparison to hate groups.

I would suggest that maybe you take a few minutes to read a discussion before jumping into it.

Wrong... The following comment was in regards to a relationship that someone has: ]SpermJackalope 6 points 1 hour ago (7|1) He has her text him from work to see if she can eat a piece of cake on a coworker's birthday. Holy shit, I am so scared for her. I mean, that is a Thing in 24/7 D/s relationships, but this guy is the most obviously abusive dom OF ALL TIMES. So in other words, slap a collar and shove in the kink closet or else it's abuse'. Heck.. at this point you can't even go that route.

I don't understand your complaint. People can't be worried about possible abuse?

So in other words, slap a collar and shove in the kink closet or else it's abuse'. Heck.. at this point you can't even go that route. That's full on 'kink shaming' if I remember right. If they are in a Total Power Exchange then that set up is pretty par for course.

There obviously isn't any kink shaming.

Their path, their rules. But of course "There's no disagreement over people choosing to live their lives however they like." That was just one of many.

Of course there isn't, that's why you can't find any evidence for your claim.

Nope, we already know we are all different. Just as much as you claim TBP is all different.

... I can't tell if you're serious or not. TRP is a philosophy, an ideology. There are core beliefs that have to be accepted so no matter how different some individual beliefs are, they ALL have to accept some fundamental premises. Otherwise there is no such thing as TRP.

This is completely different to TBP because we are simply "people who disagree with TRP". This encompasses a huge range of people, including people who hate each other but they come together under the common understanding of no matter how much we hate each other, we can recognise that TRP is the scum of the earth.

It does happen but it never seems to be noticed anyway. Not our job to point it out. That's the thing. It's not about leading people by nose it's letting them comes to terms themselves.

If you don't want to counter horrific beliefs, then that's your decision. Just don't complain when people associate those horrific beliefs with TRP.

Then that is all you will see, not looking into other posts where RPW's ripped down a comment where an man who claimed to be an Alpha for being violent. You are looking at a piece and screaming it's the whole picture.

No I'm not, I am explicitly doing the opposite. Did you read any of the discussion above before jumping into it? I discuss how most of TRP is uncontroversial or harmless. The point is that there is a seedy underbelly to it and it's clearly not just a few bad apples. What makes it worse is that the community as a whole appears to be happy to shelter and nurture such beliefs, as you are here.

My question is why bother looking at it in the first place if it seems to bother you so much. There's no point.

You seem to be under the impression that I am angry. No, the reason why I participate in TBP is because the beliefs of TRP are so hilariously ridiculous that it's fun to read through some of the stupid things they believe. It's also why I used to enjoy reading through Fundies Say the Darndest Things.

But just like with fundies saying stupid shit about evolution, sometimes it's necessary to engage them seriously and say: "Hey, you're fucking up the lives of kids by teaching them lies about evolution".

Unless you are willing to take a step back and see everything attached, don't bother. For the sake of you own blood pressure..

Haha nice baiting. Anyway, you're still missing the point. I advice you actually read the discussions you jump into.

Already presented, addressed and proven false.

You must be mistaken, you've presented no such thing. I think maybe you're letting your rage go to your head and you're unable to see clearly?

Clearly not if you need to add the later half.

That makes no sense.

I think at this point it's pretty clear that you're not open to reading anything I've said or even trying to have an open mind here, so I'm not sure there's any point continuing.

If you ever want to have an actual discussion, rather than trying to sneak in cheap shots and baiting me, then let me know and I'd be happy to try again.

[–]fhqwhgads_ 12 points12 points12 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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Knowing what you want in a partner is a significant component of being self-aware. Your statement that women "rarely" know what they want in a partner, if accepted, means that women's stated preferences about what they want in a relationship or their opinions on the status of a relationship ought to be disregarded.

False. It can easily be falsified: If women started dating fat nerds over built jocks, we could easily falsify the red pill theory.

And yet there are plenty of dude nerds out there, of all body shapes, who are in happy relationships or otherwise out there dating people. My husband, who coincidentally also happens to be the greatest man in the world, could also be described as a chubby nerd, and even though you will claim I am incapable of knowing what I want, I promise that I am very much attracted to him. (Besides -- purely by the numbers, there are far more women out there in the world who are dating nerds than jocks.)

In short, it is empirically true that women already date fat nerds. So therefore you're admitting TRP is false?

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[–]ArchipelagiAgent Smith4 points5 points6 points 12 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

Preferences do not ensure panty-wetting attraction. You can have a man who hits every item on a woman's checklist that doesn't quite do it for her.

I'm not sure what relevance this has. Sometimes, the 'chemistry' just ain't there -- even if the person is someone you'd otherwise find physically attractive, or is someone you might be interested in dating but isn't someone you're physically attracted to. But that's not a gendered phenomenon.

And re: the comparison, for most straight women, then without knowing anything else about the two dudes, then it's obviously the one who is conventionally considered hot. Why on earth would I deny that? And what does it have to do with either women not knowing what they want, or --more importantly -- with TRP having any claim to validity? I don't get it.

But aside from not being relevant to whether women know what they want, your comparison is pointless because it ignores the fact that the dudes in the world aren't a binary, and neither are women's preferences. The guy in the second pic definitely isn't my personal cup of tea at all, and while if I was forced to choose I would definitely pick him ahead of the guy in the first pic, he's not someone I'd be attracted to.

The existence of the huge self-help industry of pickup really tells us that "plenty" is not nearly as common as you're suggesting. Guys have a hard time getting women, and the bar is set very high.

"Plenty" is relative. The vast majority of men aren't involved in the PUA industry, so if you're using that standard, then only a minority of men are having trouble. It is true that some people, men and women both, struggle a great deal with finding relationships, but what does that have to do with TRP being valid either?

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[–]ArchipelagiAgent Smith4 points5 points6 points 12 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

That's exactly what I'm talking about.

How? Both men and women experience this. It's a human thing. And it's not about "not knowing" what you're attracted to.

To suggest that fat nerds have no problem getting laid just shows that you have absolutely no connection with the outside world, where real guys would completely disagree with you.

1) I never suggested that, so why are you bringing it up? 2) That isn't a monolithic category, some do and some don't. Just like all people.

No one is denying that some people have difficulty with finding romantic relationships. People that don't take care of themselves, violate social norms, are hanging out in the wrong places for what they're seeking, who have insecurities that hinder their abilities to interrelate with others -- that often results in problems with finding a partner, but that isn't a guy thing or a girl thing. (Nor is it a straight thing -- check out the t.v. show Can't Get a Date if you want to see dating advice done right.) But more importantly: none of this is some great TRP secret you have magically uncovered.

you don't understand male plight- I'm guessing you're a woman?

Please, pray tell, what is this 'male plight' you speak of? Are you saying that the 'male plight' is the fact that some men, at some points in their lives, have had difficulty finding relationships (whether short or long term)? Because that's a weird way to define the plight of a whole gender.

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As I commented in another thread. TRP isn't always an apriori truth We often highlight beta behaviour to demonstrate contrast, and what you shouldn't do. Often this resonates with our members, because it shows them how they used to act.

I don't care about the specifics of your relationship, but I do think there are a lot of people out there, both in and out of relationships, unsatisfied with the current dynamic. I use my experiences to help them learn how to develop as people, hopefully leading to more fulfilling relationships. Hopefully I learn something from them too.

I'm opposed to the idea of your relationship in general, because I think it's a bad idea for individuals, and therefore families, and society. Fractured family units, divorce, absent fathers, all of these things are bad. There can be no doubt that these social changes have happened, and I believe the shift in the power dynamic between men and women is to blame.

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Having the strength to open jars does not make my boyfriend a leader. I'm the one who installed a bidet this weekend and I am the one who fixes his computer and who does any house work involving tools and decor. He kicks ass at cleaning in a faster and more efficient manner and to his liking (which is cleaner than what I am fine living with). He's better with money but my projects bring in a ton of money...which I look to him to manage the business while I do the creative (we make the same $$ mostly, although both are dependent on market and so next year he could easily make tons more). There is no "leader", there is some things he is better at and some things I am better at but no one person makes the decisions. Actually, that is incorrect, I put my foot down when it came to spending a large sum on my dogs health care even though he very much disagreed but it came down to my decision, my dog, my money and that was that, he could voice his disagreement but I made my decision.

What we are competent on are not at all based on our gender, aside from his hand strength, and so he will open my jars for me but I also have a rubber jar opener so I guess I don't need a man? Wait, if I have the rubber jar opener, does that mean I am now the leader?

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This just comes down to observation on my part. Again, from having spent several years on pick-up related relationship forums and from personal experience. I'm not even 100% promoting everything that is entailed in traditional gender roles. However, there are lessons to be distilled from the thousands of guys who have come to the forums for help. One of those lessons are that there are over-laps between traditional gender roles and long-term healthy relationships (strong male leadership skills being the obvious one).

Now, TRP just taps into that. The whole purpose of TRP is to logically wrap our minds around what kinds of relationships work and what don't. Strong male leadership tends to correct a lot of common relationship issues. It makes sense that it'd be an element stressed by TRP, via the "traditional gender roles" framework. If you want to get technical, then you can drop the whole "traditional gender role" semantics and just stick to male attributes present in the majority of successful relationships.

If you believe that my testimony is not worth consideration, then that is your decision. However, my conclusions have made my life better and I will repeat them in the hopes that I can help others as well. Do you believe that I am doing more harm than good by espousing my beliefs (which are based on my own personal experience and the testimony of thousands of others)?

[–]CFRProflcopter( ͠° ͟ʖ ͡°)8 points9 points10 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

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[–]CFRProflcopter( ͠° ͟ʖ ͡°)3 points4 points5 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

"Science cannot prove anything because it must begin with unproven assumptions." Science can merely disprove a fact or propose a theory to explain observable data.

While this is technically true, this is not how we apply the knowledge we glean from science. Gravity cannot be proven true, and yet we accept it as true because the effect can be replicated an predicted.

At worst, it's my opinion, albeit an educated opinion.

To be educated opinion, you'd have to have done extensive research beyond your own experiences and examine topics/research that supports and contradicts your preconceived notions. Perhaps you have done this, I don't know.

Personally, I would think an educated opinion on gender and relationships would be less specific than TRP. You see some pretty clear and far reaching claims on TRP, and not just in the posts/comments. You see this stuff in the sidebar and required reading.

Ultimately, all these claims are subject to debate here. Those that aren't defendable will be attacked.

[–]Wolfwoodd0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 12 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Wolfwoodd9 points10 points11 points 12 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link

I've been reading and writing about relationships as hobby on the pick-up/relationship forums for years.. since 2007. New guys come in every day with their relationship issues. You know what 90% of them have in common? They all found "that one special girl", the relationship is awesome for a year or two, and then everything went to shit (or they get married, which just pushed out the timeline one more year, kids = 3-4 more years).

Furthermore, the girl betaizes them over a long-period of time, eventually loses attraction for them when the endorphins run out, and the guys are left bitter and angry at life... all because they attempted to follow your advice (the same advice that society gives them from a young age).

Frankly, your approach only works for older people, who want to settle down and don't need the endorphin rush anymore, or for couples who are very co-dependent.

So, now we have these new guys with problems. The forums (much like TRP) tell them how to change their unhealthy relationship habits.. and many of them return years later to thank us. That's exactly what happened to me back in 2007.. and I'm very thankful. Now I'm trying to pay it forward, which is what brought me to TRP.

Now, does somebody NEED traditional gender roles? Not exactly, however we can take from them what works. Example: Being a guy and taking the leadership role works. Men lead, women follow.. like in social dancing. Most women don't want to make the decisions.. they don't want to be responsible for the outcome. I've seen this repeatedly in nearly all of my relationships. The experiences of other men merely confirm it for me.

Lastly, lets get logical:

Me: If traditional gender roles, then mostly stable relationships. Therefore, we should teach traditional gender roles

you: If traditional gender roles, then sometimes abusive relationships. Therefore, we should NOT teach traditional genders.

TRP: Teach traditional gender roles while advocating against physical violence or emotionally abusive behavior. WIN.

[–]KittyHamiltonBlue Pill Woman2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]Wolfwoodd6 points7 points8 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Your questions make no sense to me. Lots of people have positive experiences in all sorts of relationships. I freely admit that certain types of couples can make any type of relationship work.. it depends on the people involved. I'm just interested in what works for MOST couples.. so that we can teach guys skills that will increase their odds of having awesome relationships. From what I've observed, most women ENJOY being in a relationship where strong male leadership is present.

I never said Op's experiences weren't valid (what does that even mean?). I just think they're obvious. It's easy to have a great relationship when your body is pumping you full of feel-good hormones. What I'd like to hear about is couples who have gotten past easy monogamy (i.e. post two years, after the endorphins start to die down) and still have an awesome relationship. Those are the people that we can really learn from.

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[–]ZackcidCrimson Pill1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

This is fine. My worries are that this man might not know any better or he may not be fully satisfied. He's been bred in our current culture and he doesn't know any better, so it's not surprising at all that some dude somewhere is "extraordinarily happy" for simply finding a woman that said "yes". I see this sort of like a chimpanzee (don't we just love monkeys?!) who's been born and raised in a caged playground. Sure, he can be "extraordinarily happy" swinging and jumping on those steel pipes and car tires laying on the ground, but does he know any better? Does he know about the world outside that cage?

Now, this is just my own opinion, and quite a stretch, I admit. I generally care little about bluepill males, so your relationship is outside of my reality. As long as you're not abusing him, I couldn't care less about your situation. At the very most, I'd maybe shed a single tear if he were an acquaintance of mine and I found out he got married.

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[–]RobotPartsCorp-1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Title	Redpillers: If I'm happy and my boyfriend is happy, then why do you care?
Author	fhqwhgads_
Upvotes	13
Comments	155
Date	November 18, 2013 4:52 PM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/1qwlbw/redpillers_if_im_happy_and_my_boyfriend_is_happy/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/redpillers-if-im-happy-and-my-boyfriend-is-happy.286598 https://theredarchive.com/post/286598

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