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Is the MRM about equal rights?

alphabetmod · 2013-10-10T01:11:29+00:00

Exactly what legal rights do women have that men do not?...

alphabetmod

October 10, 2013

4 upvotes

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Post Information

Title	Is the MRM about equal rights?
Author	alphabetmod
Upvotes	4
Comments	135
Date	October 10, 2013 1:11 AM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/1o3yj9/is_the_mrm_about_equal_rights/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/is-the-mrm-about-equal-rights.286711 https://theredarchive.com/post/286711

Comments

[–]mazzyTuff12 points13 points14 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]RobotPartsCorp6 points7 points8 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]nicethingyoucanthaveRed Pill Male15 points16 points17 points 12 years ago (134 children) | Copy Link

Reproductive rights.

Women have the right to choose to be a parent. No one can force a woman to be a parent. She must make a conscious choice to take on that responsibility.

And as an aside, granting this right to women has been incredibly good for our country. Right? Think about how many more women have finished their education, or kept their lives on track because they had the right to choose.

This is not an issue of nature. Nature does not grant women this right. We've done it. Through technology and legislation we've given women the following choices: abortion, legal surrender, adoption. This is how we have given women the right to choose to be a parent. There is absolutely no reason why we should not also grant this right to men. We can do it, but we choose not to.

The arguments against granting men this right are the same arguments that you reject when used against women. For example, "if you don't want a kid, then don't have sex." You would not accept that as an argument against abortion, so please don't make that argument against men.

Granting men this right does not mean taking away any of womens' rights. No woman would never be forced to have an abortion or forced to carry a child to term.

Equal protection under the law

Men are more likely to be convicted, and receive harsher sentences when all other factors are equal.

You accept this line of reasoning as evidence of discrimination against minorities. You must therefore accept it as evidence of discrimination against men.

Men deserve equal protection under the law just as much as minorities do. It's a basic human right.

The right to vote.

Never heard this argument before, have you? Well consider this: when a woman reaches the age of 18 in this country, she is granted the right to vote. Men, on the other hand, are not granted this right. The right is given to them in return for registration in selective service.

Something you pay for isn't really a right.

[–]mrsamsa12 points13 points14 points 12 years ago (78 children) | Copy Link

Women have the right to choose to be a parent. No one can force a woman to be a parent. She must make a conscious choice to take on that responsibility.

This is a serious misrepresentation of the issue. Men don't lack any reproductive rights that women have since women only have the right to their body. The reason why abortion is legal is because it is unethical and a violation of autonomy rights to force a women to support a living being within their body.

Men similarly have this right, in that if they had a cancer growing on their testicles they would be allowed to remove it. More importantly, men have more rights, given that men wouldn't be expected to make the decision within the first few weeks and then be stuck with that decision for the entire 'gestation' period of the cancer.

Both women and men are not allowed to abandon a child.

Men are more likely to be convicted, and receive harsher sentences when all other factors are equal.

Is this actually true though? Some of the more recent studies I've been reading, like these:

Gender Differences in Sentencing Outcomes

Explaining the Gender Gap in Sentencing Outcomes: An Investigation of Differential Treatment in U.S. Federal Courts

Why Are Boys More Likely to Be Referred to Juvenile Court? Gender Differences in Official and Self-Reported Delinquency

Gender and Sentencing: A Meta-Analysis of Contemporary Research

which suggest that when you take into account the types of crime, previous records, and other extralegal considerations, the gender disparity disappears. This is further supported by the fact that in places where the systems have shifted from determinate to indeterminate sentences (which equalise outcomes by affording less weight to extralegal issues, like being the primary caregiver) the differences disappear.

Never heard this argument before, have you?

Nope, never.

[–]SudoTheAdmin4 points5 points6 points 12 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

Do you read the sources that you cite? For example, the second one has these quotes from the abstract:

"Overall, I find that female defendants receive more lenient sentence outcomes than their male counterparts."
"Finally, I find that female defendants in all racial/ethnic categories receive less severe sentences than male defendants in the same racial/ethnic groupings."
"The findings of the current study show that gender continues to influence the sentencing process in U.S. federal courts despite guidelines designed to avoid differential sentencing. For instance, judges and prosecutors circumvent the guidelines through the use of sentencing departures and ultimately treat female defendants more leniently than male defendants."

This source supports the exact opposite conclusion that you said it did.

With regards to what you wrote here:

Both women and men are not allowed to abandon a child.

You have alluded to not being from the US, so you may not know this. In the US, many states allow a mother to surrender a baby to various approved organizations, thereby waiving her parental rights and she will be free from all liability and criminal charges resulting from not caring for the child. The is what OP meant by abandoning the child.

[–]mrsamsa0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

"Overall, I find that female defendants receive more lenient sentence outcomes than their male counterparts."

All of the links find that there is a gender disparity. They disagree that there is gender discrimination.

From their paper: "Although many explanations may exist for this behavior, one possibility may be that judges treat women more leniently for practical reasons, such as their greater caretaking responsibility." - this is the viewpoint they defend.

You have alluded to not being from the US, so you may not know this. In the US, many states allow a mother to surrender a baby to various approved organizations, thereby waiving her parental rights and she will be free from all liability and criminal charges resulting from not caring for the child. The is what OP meant by abandoning the child.

Not the same thing. Safe haven laws are considered a form of adoption and are significantly different from abandonment, which is illegal due to the harm brought to the child (with safe haven spots, there is no harm to the child).

[–]alphabetmodamused modstery[S] 6 points7 points8 points 12 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

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[–]alphabetmod1 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

specifically, side women are a minority group, it makes no sense to talk of their "privilege". In science their "advantages" are best described as instances of benevolent sexism - similar to back handed compliments.

I assume you meant since women are a minority group,.... Either way, it's not benevolent sexism, or "evaluations of women that may appear subjectively positive, but are actually damaging to women and gender equity more broadly" - all that does, and I mean all that does is downplay men's issues. Men being sentenced to harsher sentences is sexism against men. Full stop. Is it "benevolent sexism" against women when they are rewarded custody more often because they are seen as better caregivers? No. You or anyone else can reframe it as something as ridiculous as "benevolent sexism" in order to downplay men's issues, but it's bullshit. I can't believe I even have to mention the fact that women aren't a minority group. There are more women than men in the world. How does that make them a minority?

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[–]nicethingyoucanthaveRed Pill Male9 points10 points11 points 12 years ago (63 children) | Copy Link

[–]mrsamsa4 points5 points6 points 12 years ago (62 children) | Copy Link

(1) Abortion is not only about bodily autonomy. It's about choosing to be a parent.

No, it's about bodily autonomy. That's why women can't legally get an abortion based on the fact that they don't want to be a mother.

Women can have sex which results in the consequence of being a parent. They can then choose, after having sex, that they don't want to be a parent. This right is not a natural right. It's a right that we have granted to women through technology and legislation.

But the same applies to men. If the man is the single parent then the woman has to provide child support.

Wow. You really have to bend over backwards to compare gestation to cancer.

Not when it comes to the legality of abortion. It's legal because it's an unwanted bodily growth, not because it's an unwanted kid.

[–]alphabetmodamused modstery[S] 4 points5 points6 points 12 years ago (18 children) | Copy Link

[–]mrsamsa0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (17 children) | Copy Link

[–]alphabetmodamused modstery[S] 8 points9 points10 points 12 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

I drove my sister to two separate abortions(I live in VA state) and absolutely none of this was required for her to get one. Maybe the laws have changed in the last 4 years and I'm unaware.

EDIT: There were absolutely no interviews or signed documents either.

EDIT: Restrictions on Abortion In Virginia, the following restrictions on abortion were in effect as of October 1, 2013: A woman must receive state-directed counseling that includes information designed to discourage her from having an abortion and then wait 24 hours before the procedure is provided. Health plans that will be offered in the state’s health exchange that will be established under the federal health care reform law can only cover abortion in cases when the woman's life is endangered, rape or incest. Abortion is covered in insurance policies for public employees only in cases of life endangerment, rape or incest or fetal impairment The parent of a minor must consent and be notified before an abortion is provided. Public funding is available for abortion only in cases of life endangerment, rape, incest or fetal impairment. A woman must undergo an ultrasound before obtaining an abortion; the provider must offer her the option to view the image. If the woman lives within 100 miles of the abortion provider she must obtain the ultrasound at least 24 hours before the abortion.

This just took effect the first of last month.

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[–]nicethingyoucanthaveRed Pill Male5 points6 points7 points 12 years ago (18 children) | Copy Link

it's about bodily autonomy

No, it's not, and it's easy to demonstrate this.

If it were technically possible to perform an abortion without killing the fetus, would anyone support that?

In other words, a woman goes to an abortion doctor and has a procedure that is, from her perspective, exactly like what an abortion is like today - but the fetus is kept alive in a machine, and nine months later, the government sues the mother for child support.

Would anyone support that?? Of course not. You don't support it because bodily autonomy isn't the issue. The issue is a woman's right to refuse to be a parent. That's a right that I support, and a right that men too should have.

It's legal because it's an unwanted bodily growth, not because it's an unwanted kid.

Simply not true. As I said, abortion is but one way that women have been given the right to refuse to be a parent. They have other ways to exercise that right that don't involve "an unwanted bodily growth" and if the "unwanted growth" could be removed without allowing women to opt-out of parenthood, shit would absolutely hit the fan. Somewhere, I have a quote by a feminist calling the idea of artificial wombs "genocide" for this very reason.

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[–]LeaneGenovaBreaker of (comment) Chains2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

I'm going to have to take issue with the second argument you have listed. This is because, frankly, every study done on the topic of sentencing has come out differently.

If you had access to Westlaw/Lexis/Heinonline, I would link to specific notes that have been written on this subject, but I'll quote from one that is brand new. "Three of the most recent studies on gender and sentencing report that judicial decision-making favors female over male offenders. Other scholars report no substantive differences in sentencing outcomes between women and men, after controlling for legal and demographic characteristics." 16 JGRJ 349.

Basically, it seems pretty easy at this point for an author to find data to back up a claim - regardless of what side the author is arguing about. The study I linked does conclude that there are sentencing differentials between men and women, so don't think that I'm arguing that not such divide exists. However, most studies I've seen bandied about have been from before/during the transition period of 2002-2006, which marks a substantial shift in the criminal sentencing of men and women.

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[–]nicethingyoucanthaveRed Pill Male6 points7 points8 points 12 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

There is no child in this conversation.

We're talking about a fetus. The fetus has no rights.

Your statement is a red herring. It's a distraction. "What about the children!"

However, you do give me a great opportunity to bring up another right that men should have - so, thanks for that.

It sometimes happens that, due to paternity fraud, a man ends up paying child support for children that are not his. Here's a thread about just such a thing happening, and there are many other examples.

Men should have the right to fully support their actual children - the same right that women have. Shit would hit the fan if the government picked a random woman and said, "I need you to pay for someone else's child."

The ridiculous statement you used, "who is more important" is used to justify this kind of injustice. That's another great reason for MRM

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Can't pick up the slack; not accept responsibility. You edited your post before I submitted.

justify continuing to deny men this basic human right - a right that we have gladly afforded women through legislation.

Gladly is a bit of an overstatement, don't you think? There's still bitter debates and suppression over abortion. And I'm not justifying anything. I haven't even argued against you, here. Why is it justification if I'm asking for clarification? Your first post in the thread wasn't even clear exactly what you were talking about when you mentioned abortions.

A woman can have a baby and just walk away from it. You never ask, "who picks up the slack." It's only when men ask for rights that suddenly you make excuses.

I don't ask because I already know who picks up the slack. I find it a waste of time to ask questions I already know the answer to. And when have I made excuses on this?

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Yes, sorry, I missed it. Thank you.

I agree with your solution except that there are scenarios where it wouldn't work and it would be hard to place responsibility on one party or the other instead of both parties. For instance, some women, as weird as it sounds, don't even know they are pregnant until well after the time allowed till one is able to get an abortion (which in many states can be not much time at all). Sometimes a woman is not able to get to a clinic in a timely manner due to restrictions in the state or income, a provision would have to be put on place that gets the guy to pay for half the abortion.

Enforcement would be an issue. A woman could keep the pregnancy secret for the allotted time. A man could claim that the woman kept the info away from him when she didn't, he could agree to have the child but then change his mind last minute, etc. There is no way to read minds.

More importantly, for this to work, abortion should be a lot easier to get and many of the current restrictions on it should be lifted. On top of that, the adoption system should be overhauled, there should be mandated maternity AND paternity leave in the US as well. So much has to change because currently, in health and career, it is the woman that takes the brunt of the hit when it comes to pregnancy, abortion and raising the child.

As for selective service....I think there should either be no selected service at all, or of there is, it is for both sexes who are not parents. I think a mother or father should be exempt from selective service if there is one. I do not believe in the draft. And all branches and levels of the military should be accessible based on ability and not sex, so those who do volunteer and work up should have equal opportunity.

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