How do I label myself?

v573v · 2016-01-17T04:50:29+00:00

Picture a woman with a heavy box and she asks you for help. Do you:

Traditionalist: lift the box for her?
Feminist ally: complain that the patriarchy made the box too heavy and it should be two lighter boxes.
MRA: help her lift the box.
PUA: ask her what's in it for you?
Mgtow: it's her box she can lift it.

ryeshoes · 2016-01-17T03:53:16+00:00

You're a man.

chocoboat · 2016-01-17T04:48:30+00:00

I wouldn't bother to stick a label on yourself, especially when most labels in anything gender-related are misinterpreted by so many people.

Call yourself an MRA, and people think you're a social conservative who wants 1950s gender roles and thinks women never face sexism. Obviously, "feminist" means 1000 different things to 1000 different people. Label yourself a MGTOW and most people have no idea what that means.

The purpose of a label is to help people understand what you are. If the label only accomplishes the opposite of that, then there's no reason to use them. Just take a few sentences to tell people where you stand, there's less room for misinterpretation.

Besides, there might not be a label that really fits you. MGTOWs are not necessarily right wing by definition, but a lot of them happen to stand on the right apparently just because they're in opposition to the far-left anti-equality feminists and SJWs.

The only label I ever bother to use anymore is "liberal", and even then I often have to clarify that as "anti-SJW liberal". I suspect a lot of moderate Republicans have had to do something similar to differentiate themselves from the Tea Party and the fundies.

bigeyedbunny · 2016-01-17T11:17:52+00:00

"Red pillers" believe that the system is broken, they understand it and they try to take advantage of it.

MGTOWs believe that the system is broken, and are avoiding it.

MRAs believe that the system is broken, and they try to fix it.

splodgenessabounds · 2016-01-17T08:15:23+00:00

[permanently deleted]

cld8 · 2016-01-17T07:05:35+00:00

I don't think labeling people is productive. You believe what you believe. There is no need to divide people into subgroups.

snowplough77 · 2016-01-17T05:57:36+00:00

You're gonna get a ton of negative comments, but that's R/MensRights for yah. I mean this in a positive sense: if not for negative comments we would turn into a hivemind echo chamber like r/feminism. This sub doesn't discriminate based on political ideology, and even welcomes feminists if they are able to argue coherently. Most of the "leftist" subs have succumbed to feminist censorship.

The anarchist Kropotkin, whom you cite, was a genius and presaged many later anthropologists and zoologists in "Mutual Aid" and other works. Franz Kafka was a particular fan. This may be relevant for MRA's since rape "trials" are becoming increasingly Kafkaesque:

of, relating to, or suggestive of Franz Kafka or his writings; especially : having a nightmarishly complex, bizarre, or illogical quality.

Feminism is very at home with totalitarian state power. The "patriarchy" acts as muscle for the "matriarchy," and powerful men are only too happy to oblige with feminist demands, both because men like to appear chivalrous and because feminism requires ever-increasing state power to enforce female supremacy and transfer of resources from males to females. Also, it's great to be able to imprison any man on a whim.

"Anarcha-feminism" is a contradition in terms.

"Anarchist" is the only [quasi] political label I'm comfortable with precisely because it so broad. A French writer, sympathetic to anarchism, wrote in the 1890s that “anarchism has a broad back, like paper it endures anything” — including, he noted those whose acts are such that “a mortal enemy of anarchism could not have done better." [Chomsky, Notes on Anarchism]

The unifying feature is a belief in anti-authoritarianism, but that can encompass an enormous variety of different belief-systems. The word derives from the Greek "Anarkos" meaning "Without ruler."

The wide divergence in anarcho-adjectives would paradoxically seem to refute anarchism, but decentralization tends to be a common theme.

Your claim that Kropotkin is "utopian" is questionable, since he based most of his philosophy on studying "primitive" peoples, villagers and animals (even insects). The word "Utopia" denotes a society that cannot exist. It is certainly questionable whether relatively non-hierarchical societies can be replicated under advanced technological conditions, but on the other hand freedom is a state that we should always aspire to.

As the saying goes, a man's reach should exceed his grasp, or what's a heaven for?

Personally I wouldn't bother myself too much with labels.

Edit: few words

DougDante · 2016-01-17T11:54:22+00:00

Why label yourself at all?

If you want, label yourself as someone who is seeking wisdom.

That's a good label for all of us.

Westlothina · 2016-01-17T06:59:22+00:00

I've noticed that the upvote number on this post is kinda going up and down. In other words, I have created controversy.

Good. I try to cause controversy on any site I use.

IIHotelYorba · 2016-01-17T09:55:43+00:00

You can identify with as many or as few groups as you want. It's also ok to say pretty much what you just did, you're inclined to support this or that group for these reasons, but disinclined because of these other reasons.

I personally don't call myself anything unless I'm comfortable saying I know what they stand for, and that I want to support it enough to add my name to it.

In a basic sense, men's rights stands for literal legal rights for men. Laws. Things like body autonomy, reproductive rights, and changing official policies and procedures (which are de facto laws) held by the government that prejudice men.

MGTOW is its own philosophy of being self sufficient, and avoiding different kinds of relationships. For some, out of protest at least until laws change.

Westlothina · 2016-01-17T21:49:34+00:00

I've noticed that most people outside the MRM consider us far-right. Some of this is just garbage ... but there are some extreme right-wingers that make the MRM look bad.

This is a problem for left-leaning MRAs. Somehow, we must overcome.

Chad_Nine · 2016-01-18T02:20:29+00:00

labels are for filing cabinets.

Westlothina · 2016-01-17T05:33:28+00:00

I have read about socialism quite a bit and I have made some important discoveries.

Socialism is an economic system. It is not inherently feminist. It is not inherently secular. It is not inherently totalitarian. A society can have any legal system. It's still a socialist society as long as it has a socialist economy.
Some socialists want to create voluntary communes. Not all socialists want a revolution.
If we use voluntary communes then every type of socialism can co-exist.

anunusualname · 2016-01-18T02:22:10+00:00

Why do you need a label? Find something close, but from there, speak out about what you agree with and what you don't agree with. Not in the way that others must agree with you, but in the way that your opinion is as valuable as anyone else's.

soalone34 · 2016-01-17T03:59:22+00:00

I have the same problem. I'm a pretty liberal person who believes in male right advocacy and sigh at the right wing influence in male advocacy and the feminist influence in liberalism. I wonder if there is a liberal anti feminist sub somewhere...

In the end I guess you don't need to label yourself and instead just take what you please from all sides.

PurpleViolettron · 2016-01-17T09:47:06+00:00

A MGTOW "mini-utopia" makes no sense. A collective like that is not going your own way. At least, not if it's like Twin Oaks (I want to burn my eyes after reading about them). A collective based on egalitarianism with a rejection of feminism seems curious, but is inherently not going to be best for many men. Many MRAs are fathers fighting for their own rights. Joining a collective would be perfect for woman to build a case against them. "He joined a cult! I'm not giving him visitation! I'm not sending my children to a cult!"

Asher-D · 2016-01-17T14:21:22+00:00

I just go by pro-MRM and leave it at that.

Then I actually speak issues and try to give people my perspective.

1337Gandalf · 2016-01-17T18:48:20+00:00

How is MGTOW right wing? I've subscribed there for awhile and haven't much right wing shit...

Red pill is right wing as fuck tho.

jimmywiddle · 2016-01-17T20:43:13+00:00

Only those who try and silence, discredit, censor use labels. You don't need a label to fight for equality (true equality not the corrupt feminist version of it). Stay away from labels and you will do fine.

JerryShrimpsticks · 2016-01-17T21:42:45+00:00

Just call yourself egalitarian and live your life how you wish.

2016-01-18T00:46:04+00:00

Be a left leaning MGTOW. Nothing wrong with that.

CountVonVague · 2016-01-18T05:02:49+00:00

The reason MGTOWs seem right-wing is that most of them well yes are more right-wing and their talking points reflect that. Their entire philosophy seems to be 1.Be your own great manly self and fuck the haters, and 2.Don't get married or tied down by the system. Disregard cultural subgroups or labels, the point of the MRM in my opinion is Legal change and all that requires is vocalizing the fact that men factually aren't equal under the law to women in a few small but key areas of western society.

splodgenessabounds · 2016-01-18T08:35:19+00:00

AFAICT (from my own limited experience), MRA's come in all shapes, sizes, genders, colours and political outlooks. MGTOWs and Red Pillers I have limited experience with, so I won't comment on those groups' politics; however, the more vocal among them express political views I don't share.

That said, some points that MGTOW's and RP's make about personal approaches to particular situations make a lot of sense to me, and I more or less adopt them.

For me, the trick is to examine the entire spectrum of reactions and responses to Feminism (from "Men's Lib" through MGTOW to PUA), and to use those approaches and principles that I can work with. None of this means I "am" a PUA or a Meninist or whatever, and I suspect a great many people who are interested in discussing and advancing men's rights don't comfortably fit in any one category either.

Shubrook · 2016-01-18T15:07:46+00:00

Starting one of those communes is a lot harder than you think. Most of them had a millionaire financial backer.

I have a friend at twin oaks. He likes it there, but when he talks about it to me, it sounds like Animal Farm.

You have to conform very strictly to their culture. While they say they are egalitarian, they absolutely have leaders and followers. They have a social pecking order and a sexual pecking order. As a male, you will be at the very bottom of both. They will use you for your labor (but they won't pay you) and if you make a single social or sexual misstep, they will throw you out.

You are entering a culture where you wear your demographic details like medals, and as a straight, white male, you don't get to have any. Call yourself a gay trans woman who wants to present as a man (a dude who likes chicks) and you'll get a few Oppression Points^tm and climb the ladder.

Why do you want to label yourself. That shit is stupid.

mwobuddy · 2016-01-19T00:18:15+00:00

Labels don't matter. Beliefs and acts matter.

I can call myself a feminist while demanding revoking women's voting rights.

Don't label yourself or others. That's one of the reasons we're in this mess to begin with. Everyone wants to label each other.

You know what labels really do? They stop discussion. They silence dissent. They write off others.

The N-word (not sure if its okay to use it even as an example) exists because it originally labeled a bunch of people. Labels are dehumanizing. Instead of being a person, you're an N, or a feminist, or an MRA.

The thing fascinating regarding men vs women is this: you'll find that women, in general, will either agree or stay silent with the majority opinion. They align themselves if it serves their interest, or they stay quiet.

Men do and have always done the opposite. They will easily fracture into subgroups because, although they believe in a few general points, each one, in idealism, will argue that one side or the other of the same coin is wrong or bad, or "not their kind of people". Men are really good at picking the flyshit out of the pepper, that is to say, they're really good at dividing themselves over differences of small points, because they all believe that an imperfect change isn't good enough.

Not that there weren't women against feminist ideas in the early days, but they were drowned out. That's changing though. I think it is a sign our culture has actually become egalitarian, or started to lean towards feminism, when many women are starting to stand up, like the men in the previous paragraph, and say "some things it did are good, but!". The fact that women are now vocally opposing feminism means that it has reached the point where men have always been; there can be dissent because all the real issues have been solved, and now its a question of where to go from here.

Anyway, I have unpopular opinions on specific subjects, but I am wholeheartedly for men's rights (and women's). Not privileges, rights. I don't consider myself an MRA, but whenever I see unfair legal or business practices against men that are supported by the popular opinion, I will cry foul. I'd do the same if women were unfairly treated.

It is important to have space to talk that is specific to something, like mensrights, by calling it mens rights. I just don't think it helps whatsoever to label people.

ThePigmanAgain · 2016-01-17T07:38:06+00:00

"I believe the the concept of men's rights is totally compatible with the old left."

Great, our movement is compatible with something which lies dead and rotting in the basement of a backwoods cabin owned by the new left!

Title	How do I label myself?
Author	Westlothina
Upvotes	20
Comments	49
Date	January 17, 2016 3:52 AM UTC (10 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/41bwkx/how_do_i_label_myself/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/how-do-i-label-myself.958354 https://theredarchive.com/post/958354

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