~ archived since 2018 ~

Men Lack Reproductive Rights

peanutbutterjams
March 27, 2022
102 upvotes
/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates

It is true that in America, Canada, most of Europe as well as various other places in the world:

 

  • All children born of consensual sex were the result of decisions made by both parents. However, from birth control to carrying the child to term, the mother either consented to or decided what happened;

and,

  • There are men who involuntarily pay child support because of decisions made by the mother.

 

Therefore, it is fair to say that men do not have equal reproductive rights.

 

I was talking to my wife about this issue moments before I posted this and she added this:

A former friend of hers chose to have a baby after a one-night stand.

This friend had literally sat there with two sets of governments forms on either side of her.

On her left, she could sign away the father's parental obligations (and rights) to the child.

On her right, she could consign the father to 18 years of financial and legal responsibilities.

And this was AFTER her legally (and personally) supported right to abort the child.

I won't say which she chose because it's irrelevant.

It's irrelevant because NOBODY should be able to make these kinds of choices for another person.

Nobody should be able to financially subsidize their life (by the way of their child's life) without another person's consent or to decide whether or not a man's life is forever changed, and in what way.

It's yet another unrecognized privilege.

 

 

Sanity Sunday Moment

Keep in mind that it is unrecognized privilege, though, a condition from which most of suffer.

We all live in the lap of relative luxury while 25,000 people die from needless starvation every day - the price of an economy whose only purpose is to benefit the rich.

We live in unrecognized privilege too and so the Golden Rule seems to hold in good stead here: Treat others how you would like to be treated.

Consider how would you be most amenable to internalizing the daily genocide of the global poor and then do that when talking to feminists who have yet to internalize the daily genocide of the working man.

 

Full disclosure: I'm happily married; I don't pay child support; I'm not personally affected by child support.

I do listen to men, though, and I don't automatically assume women have it worse.

That's pretty much all it takes to start breaking down the feminist / misandrist assumptions about men's reproductive responsibilities and both are actions consistent with what can now only be considered as the classic Left.

 

Questions

 

How do you think we can better establish men's reproductive rights?

 

Have you ever considered this to be a reproductive rights issue?

 

What constructive criticism can you offer based on your personal experience?

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Post Information
Title Men Lack Reproductive Rights
Author peanutbutterjams
Upvotes 102
Comments 20
Date March 27, 2022 7:47 AM UTC (11 months ago)
Subreddit /r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/men-lack-reproductive-rights.1110041
https://theredarchive.com/post/1110041
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/tpf5ht/men_lack_reproductive_rights/
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Comments

[–]xhouliganx 22 points23 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Not to mention the fact that men must pay child support even if they are sexually assaulted. One major issue is women who lie about being on birth control. Stealthing has become an issue among feminists and some laws have even been introduced to make it a crime. I actually do agree with that, as it stands to reason that if one did not consent to have sex without a condom that taking it off without the consent of the other party should be considered sexual assault. However, feminists and law makers completely disregard the issue of women lying about being on birth control. The argument usually places the responsibility on men. The response is often, “well, he should have used a condom anyway. Why is the responsibility just on women to use birth control?” This misses the point though. If a man consented to have sex under the condition that the woman was on birth control, then lying about being on birth control has taken away the man’s consent. This is sexual assault, plain and simple. It doesn’t matter to feminists though.

Sometimes I’ve even encountered the argument that men have the choice to not have sex if they don’t want to be on the hook for unwanted kids. This one is the most ironic to me. Feminists lose their collective minds whenever someone makes this argument about women when the issue of abortion comes up. Another double standard is the misandrist idea of the deadbeat dad. If a woman decides she doesn’t want a child and gets an abortion, most people don’t even bat an eye (obviously, there still exists the ever shrinking “pro-life” movement on the right). However, if a man makes the decision to not have anything to do with an unwanted child he is considered a deadbeat. It all just proves that feminists only care about having reproductive rights for themselves.

[–]Mr-X1 36 points37 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

There are men who involuntarily pay child support because of decisions made by the mother.

Including men who have to pay for children that are not even theirs. Which they did not know early enough to prevent this from happening. And instead of doing something against this Feminists love that this is the case.

[–]peanutbutterjamsleft-wing male advocate[S] 19 points20 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Agreed that this happens.

I guess my point is that the lack of men's reproductive rights is systemic.

We're not just talking about cases of personal infidelity but a systemic assumption that women deserve a choice that men should be denied. Even in cases of absolute fidelity, men's right to choose is restricted.

[–]SCArnoldos 4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

This is because historically, women performed the reproduction, while men performed the labour.

Marriage was a legal agreement, in which the man gave his labour to the woman in return for her reproductive capabilities. Men depended on women to create offspring and women depended on men to provide for them. The roles were balanced.

Now, women received labour rights, they no longer depend on men, but men still depend on women, because they cannot create offspring by themselves. This creates a power imbalance, where women dictate whether or not men get offspring and what must they give in return. Men lost their bargaining power, because they no longer can provide for women, as women provide for themselves.

This is especially bad for middle-class and lower men, as upper-class men, if they want offspring can still bargain with their high status and luxurious life style. Less so if they don't, as everyone no matter the class can get "baby trapped".

As for solutions, we have to restore the balance. I don't think the technology is there to commercially clone people, so those who want offspring are still at the mercy of women, but those who don't want offspring should regain their bargaining power by being able to legally abort the child, as in decline their fatherhood.

[–]Phantombiceps 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

If I may try to add a kind of philosophical point here. Part of our blindness to this imbalance is that when one side has zero capability in a task, they aren’t counted as bad at that task.

So from society’s POV, they aren’t at a historical, biological or social disadvantage, because they aren’t even on the map. Women can do anything a man can do, at least to some extent, as long as sperm banks exist. But men can to zero extent get pregnant and give birth. Men might be better football players or chess players. We may want to provide decent infrastructure for women to enjoy those sports with that in mind. The CEO suite was maybe not made with women in mind, maybe women might need support in adjustments there.

But women are not better at giving birth, because men are not even capable of that-at all. Since men don’t need assistance in adjusting to giving birth, or time to catch up, because men can not even do that task at any level, there is no visible imbalance or inequality, because the inequality is so natural and extreme.

[–]SnooPaintings8742 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I was brought up with bad parental guidance as well as love.

Whilst I'm grateful, in a way- this was because my dad didn't want kids.However, my mom did. So she decided to poke holes through condom packaging with a needle.

My dad wasn't aware, every single time- but she did that 5 times. Now there's 5 of us.

The result? My dad doesn't care for us, but neither does our mom, for some reason.My dad was never able to do anything about it, because he had to 'prove' it.

It's honestly made me pretty paranoid about hookups or even getting together with someone, because as a man I'll be in absolutely no control were something to happen. It's genuinely scary.

[–]FairSalt3351 15 points16 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

And our reproductive organs can be needlessly mutilated at birth.

[–]peanutbutterjamsleft-wing male advocate[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

While I don't think that necessarily fits under 'reproductive rights', I certainly think it merits discussion when discussing men's bodily autonomy.

So as an side, sure:

It's socially acceptable to limit men's sexual enjoyment for life by mutilating their infant body in a faith-based ritual.

How can this be? Oh right. It's about men.

In democratic countries, the nearest analogy is the non-consensual but socially acceptable piercing of a girl's ears. However, even for an ear fetishist, this has never caused a massive decrease in sexual pleasure later in life.

I'm 'cut' myself and recently suffering from a lack of sensation due to medication / God hating me. It's super fun :D I can't help but wonder what my life would be like if my bodily autonomy had been respected by my parents.

[–]BitsAndBobs304 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

> All children born of consensual sex were the result of decisions made by both parents

No. Men can be raped. Women can lie about being on birth control or sterile. Third parties (eg mother in law) can sabotage condoms. Vasectomies can fail naturally.

[–]peanutbutterjamsleft-wing male advocate[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Men can be raped.

I said consensual sex, which precludes rape. And your second objection.

The last two, sure, yes. It doesn't change the point that the woman chooses whether or not to void any responsibility to the fetus and the man's fate is determined by her decision.

[–]throwaceornotaceblobleft-wing male advocate -1 points0 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I say make abortion rights much more permissive and let people abort even almost newborns.

Even better: have children in an external egg-vat so that people have exactly the same burdens with the child and stop female menstruation so it stops being used as a way to guilt trip others.

Otherwise there is not much to do other than just have the man both pay 0 child support and lose all rights to the child if he does not want the child.

[–]peanutbutterjamsleft-wing male advocate[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I'm not sure what your hysterical example is supposed to prove.

If women choose to have the baby after father has exercised their right to legally 'abort' the child, then that's her choice and her responsibility.

What's your issue with that?

[–]pargofan -2 points-1 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

It's imperfect when it comes to reproduction because there's a third party -- the child -- which doesn't have rights, then later does have rights.

And this works against women sometimes too. Abortion is effective illegal in Texas now, even for rape. Rape victims who become pregnant, sometimes have to give visitation rights to their rapist as the father of the child.

[–]SchalaZeal01 4 points5 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

It's imperfect when it comes to reproduction because there's a third party -- the child -- which doesn't have rights, then later does have rights.

Doesn't prevent women from getting rid of the need to support the child by giving it away, safe haven or adoption. And either dad doesn't know he had her pregnant and won't look, or he did know but didn't see her give birth and won't know where to look and might have no recourse even if he did find the baby (if he's not married to her). So basically, only her husband can contest adoption or safe haven. If he knows within a certain window, and he might still not win parental rights.

She can give away the baby and all responsibilities financially about it, no questions asked. No one says "but a child exists!", they just say "ok, better this than infanticide". Something they'd never give a man the opportunity of. Certainly not if he also threatened to kill the baby in retaliation for not helping him.

[–]pargofan -1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

She can give away the baby and all responsibilities financially about it, no questions asked.

No she can't. Fathers can stop the adoption proces

When going through the adoption process, a biological father has a constitutional right to be notified of paternity for a child who is being put up for adoption. If he believes the adoption should not proceed, and would like custody of the child, he has the right to be heard in court and initiate a paternity proceeding. Under such proceedings the father may be given custody of their child once he establishes paternity and proves that he can care for the child on his own.

[–]SchalaZeal01 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

When going through the adoption process, a biological father has a constitutional right to be notified of paternity for a child who is being put up for adoption.

He has to sign a register of putative fatherhood for the state she birthed in. Or all states he thinks she could birth in. He has to physically go there afaik. He has to be aware she could birth (is pregnant, a date), and to establish paternity rights, he also has to prove he invested time and significant money into her during pregnancy, while living with her (basically, you're screwed if she went away and lost your number, even if you stalk her, it won't count as investing, it will count as stalking).

If you're not married to her, she can have the baby without you involved, or give it away without you having any say. And its very easy to do so.

[–]jabberwockxeno 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

On her left, she could sign away the father's parental obligations (and rights) to the child.

Can you clarify on this part? How does this work?

[–]SchalaZeal01 4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Name no one, go at it alone. He won't know he has a kid, so he can never establish relationship or rights.

She can keep it, or give it in adoption, no one will be the wiser, no one will look for dad unless she asks for welfare (and then they'll only look for whoever she names, not the real dad).

[–]jabberwockxeno 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Right, i'm asking what sort of form that is or what the actual legal policy/law is

[–]griii2right-wing guest 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

All children born of consensual sex were the result of decisions made by both parents.

I do not agree. Many children are "accidents". Two consenting people making a decision to have sex does not equal to making a decision to have a child.

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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