Where is The Movement Most Lacking?

Enzi42 · 2022-03-27T19:58:23+00:00

I would argue public image is where we are hurting the most. The others are definitely important, and I would actually say invaluable aspects, but public opinion is the root from which all of these other parts of the movement grow. If people believe that advocacy for men is socially unacceptable or even morally "wrong", then they will be reluctant to offer support in terms of their money, their leadership skills, their resources and obviously their participation.

Oncefa2 · 2022-03-28T01:20:44+00:00

A lot of people don't seem to think that men's issues are real, or even important.

In psychology there's a bias called "male gender blindness" that's been getting a lot of attention from researchers recently.

The theory is that there are both biological and social factors that contribute to it.

So... Maybe education is what we need to work on?

If you think about it, they can slander "MRAs" all they want, but if enough people are educated and cared about the issues, then even feminists would have to start changing how they behave. You'd get a lot of people saying things like, "I'm not an MRA but I think we need family law reform". As it stands though, most people don't appreciate how sexist and harmful many of these things are (including for men, children, POC, and even women sometimes). And you can't fix a problem if you don't first identify it.

kyoshirii · 2022-03-28T07:21:53+00:00

All factors are important but as soon as you challenge the notion that men aren't all these hyper-successful GigaChads that are out to try and oppress as many women as much as possible, you just get called a misogynistic MRA and get infinite tons shit thrown your way for it. We have to improve our PR in order get people to start caring about us.

People hate us. They fucking despise us. Yet one day, on God, we'll go down in history as the good guys in this conflict.

dr-korbo · 2022-03-28T10:59:31+00:00

Public image is the key in my opinion. Many people think they're concerned about morale opinion, about what is fair and what is not. But actually they worry about what is socially acceptable. Very few people care about men's right because they know advocating about men right would backlash to them. If misandry was shamed and if there was better respect for opinion about men's right then there would be a massive change.

GorchestopherH · 2022-03-28T11:22:48+00:00

Here I thought I'd be one of the few picking "Public Image", looks like most people agree.

Clearly the biggest issue is that no one has any idea this even exists, or is a valid movement.

Skirt_Douglas · 2022-03-28T15:27:50+00:00

I think it’s participation that matters most. As long as it’s only a tiny minority of men who are willing to stand for men’s advocacy, you can kiss any hope of public image or finding goodbye. In order to have a good public image, we need to have a robust united front of men who are willing to put their reputations on the line and act combat the negative press and create positive press. I don’t think we can really have any of that if most men are ambivalent or hostile to the movement.

Sydnaktik · 2022-03-28T01:17:57+00:00

Ideology is the most important thing.

Men's rights has always lagged far behind women's rights except in places where both were treated like slave and animals (and maybe not even then).

This is due to the empathy gap and the general perception of men as being a threat.

I think what will help us turn things around is an accurate understanding of how things work and an argument that genuine equality will make things better.

But because these things are practically impossible to achieve through science (it's just too difficult). It falls to ideology to try and make a case.

UnHope20 · 2022-03-27T21:41:46+00:00

For the people who select "None of the above", where would you say the movement is really hurting?

SuspicousEggSmell · 2022-03-27T21:59:35+00:00

Jonathanese · 2022-03-28T16:45:40+00:00

I voted image, easily.

Like is there an empathy gap that pushes a decent amount of this? Absolutely.

But we also have to be aware of our image and be able to criticize parts of men's movements that does a disservice to us as a whole.

Image is probably the hardest thing to work with in this case. The feminist movement had a certain advantage in that they're trying to counter the image of women as passive and lacking agency (Though I'd argue their problem is not sticking to this enough). When they get aggressive or assertive, it might hurt their likability, but it helps counter said image, so there's still and advantage to be had.

While I don't like the comparison I'm about to make, I do think men's movements have a similar issue to black Americans' movements (Or anglosphere as a whole). It's that we're trying to counter the image of us being violent perps-in-waiting. If we get aggressive, it galvanizes this image. But we also have the additional problem that if we try to portray ourselves in a softer and more sensitive light, that also fits into society's narrative that we are less-than-men and therefore our voice is irrelevant. It's sort of a double-bind.

Having dipped my toes in Feminism, LGBT rights, a bit in Occupy stuff, and quite active in the Sanders campaign, this was an issue most of them fell into: "I know what I believe and I don't need to explain anything to you."

It's true that nobody should have to justify their positions on things. But change doesn't happen unless you do.

Putting up a stronger brick wall doesn't let people in, it blocks them out. As a leftie in a red state, and a male advocate in feminist groups, I've gotten somewhat used to how to get points across. It's less effective if you start from your perspective with absolute rigidity, and more effective if you start where they are and then lean it in your direction. If you argue for universal healthcare, it helps a bit if you acknowledge their concerns about national debt, or tap into the extra freedom it offers. If you are arguing male issues, it's helpful to present it as the feminist viewpoint. Some of the more successful conversations I've had with feminists ended with them saying "well, I think everyone should be a feminist and an MRA." Perhaps it didn't end with the narrative questioning I had hoped, but it did end in empathy for some of these issues. And I think most people are empathetic to several of these issues, when presented properly, and when it's coming from a friend or loved one.

I think a good argument is in emphasizing ways in which we don't feel powerful. Because that's the biggest fallacy I see in the feminist movement, the assumption that men control the conversation, feel powerful, and are "just afraid to lose said power". But many of us feel powerless over many things in our lives, and feel that feminists are the ones controlling the conversation. Another great fallacy touted by many feminists is female hypo-agency. The idea that she shouldn't have to think about how her words affect others, because she thinks women's words and actions don't hold power. I think we all here know that this just isn't the case.

Like why do men feel threatened by a wife who out-earns him? It's certainly not because "more money is a bad thing". But I think the idea that "it threatens his masculinity" is the exception, not the rule. I think most men feel income is all he has to offer, and if she out-earns him, "what value am I to her?". It's not his self-image or public image he is worried about. He is worried about her image of him. At least from most men I've known in such situations.

In many ways, she is the one with the power to dissuade these fears. And if she actually expects him to be a primary breadwinner, she needs to understand that she'll have to think differently to avoid this problem down the road. That is, she needs to acknowledge where she is powerful, and how considering men's issues in this scenario helps her.

Sorry if this sounds like some sort of apologism. The idea is that people are more willing to help others when they feel others are willing to help them. When I was more of a feminist, I dated a girl who was more of an MRA. The amount of empathy for each others' issues was astounding, and that's ultimately something that I hope we can reproduce over time.

TheLWMA · 2022-03-28T04:13:56+00:00

Pretty much all of it, but public image is certainly the biggest factor.

Langland88 · 2022-03-28T18:09:36+00:00

Instead of None of the Above, there should be an All of the Above because the movement in my opinion lacks all those things mentioned.

griii2 · 2022-03-30T15:33:35+00:00

One specific issue: while MRA points out that feminism is toxic (rightly) there is very little high-quality resources on this topic.

One day I will build a website cataloguing why feminism is toxic :D

Title	Where is The Movement Most Lacking?
Author	UnHope20
Upvotes	25
Comments	25
Date	March 27, 2022 7:21 PM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/tpr1be/where_is_the_movement_most_lacking/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/where-is-the-movement-most-lacking.1109960 https://theredarchive.com/post/1109960

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