What you need to know before talking about issues on this sub.

a-man-from-earth · 2021-03-23T21:53:06+00:00

Very much agree, especially with your conclusion:

when we are discussing any issues we should focus on the facts and use disclaimers liberally. We can't give the haters any ammo on here or any other platform.

OGBoglord · 2021-03-23T21:47:29+00:00

I appreciate the warning and for bringing this to everyone's attention. As unfair as it is, I think its important for us to be aware of the stigma surrounding male advocacy and to react accordingly. Optics is paramount in politics, and disregarding ours will make activism that much more difficult.

az226 · 2021-03-23T22:15:06+00:00

So sad that male advocacy is made out to be extremist or misogynistic. Very sad.

PrincessofPatriarchy · 2021-03-24T00:14:32+00:00

Have we ever taken a demographic survey? It might be interesting to see how many users here aren't "straight white cis men' (not that there is anything wrong with that but the prevailing narrative being as it is, this argument will likely be used to dismiss us). It might be helpful to be able to point to a survey that shows how diverse the subreddit is.

I also stand by my original suggestion (though I acknowledge the practical complexities of actually implementing it) of maybe having an offshoot "ask a male advocate" subreddit similar to the "ask a feminist subreddit" to show both that we aren't a bunch of misogynist extremists and also help dispel some of the myths about men's rights.

Throwaway6969669gay · 2021-03-24T00:27:23+00:00

Rad fems are truly a sad bunch.

Crazy4Swift · 2021-03-24T01:03:49+00:00

I'm always saddened and distressed when discussing male issues leads to people dismissing everything I say by lying about me being right wing, a misogynist, or some other kind of thing I'm not.

I agree that we have to be careful but let's also not go overboard and end up like menslib that slowly thanks to bad moderation it became a sub that isn't about men's issues anymore.

skgody · 2021-03-24T00:45:32+00:00

I got banned for r/video for belonging a sub they didn’t like.

Gamer_Jack_Gameson · 2021-03-23T23:08:35+00:00

I agree, and I will make it a point to talk about my liberal beliefs whenever I comment here. I don't think anyone will be able to call us right wing and get away with it. Look at organizations like Republicans Against Trump. People take them at their word that they are Republicans despite their fundamental disagreement with other Republicans.

excess_inquisitivity · 2021-03-24T06:23:36+00:00

If you don't buy into certain feminists narratives, you'll get some proactive ban notices.

A failure to cushion "men are human too" messages in apologies for testosterone, muscles, sweat, and the domestic and sexual assault committed by men who are not you is a sufficient failure to support women.

Pwr-usr69 · 2021-03-23T23:16:45+00:00

A very good point. I think it's a good general rule to be as clear and precise with your words as possible, both to facilitate good understanding in discussions and to prevent words and phrases being used to contradict or undermine you.

There's the added benefit of it helping us really articulate to ourselves what we are thinking and feeling without relying on lazy generalizations and broad characterizations. Something extremely common on Reddit.

DanteLivra · 2021-03-23T23:05:37+00:00

I agree, we won't let mysandry get in the way of gender equality. I've been waiting years for a sub like this.

fndo84 · 2021-03-24T01:30:56+00:00

Thank you for this warning. And the fact that this sub is growing steadily is a good signal that the overton window for male issues is slowly moving. Subs like this give me hope that in the future caring about the very real issues of men will not be considered a radical idea, and at least will be accepted in a way men will be seen as sensible and human. As for the other sub you mentioned, I think many men will move eventually, when they reflect about many topics that are shared in this sub which are censored in the other.

Sock_Crates · 2021-03-23T23:17:19+00:00

Have to agree with you here, but we also need to be aware of, and call out, actual alt-right, incel-esque, anti-equality, hardline/hateful MGTOW individuals who may try to invade the space. Politics makes strange bedfellows, and we should absolutely welcome discourse appropriate to this space from those willing to talk peaceably (and who won't try to poach away members), but it is our responsibility to protect this space from losing the >left-wing< spirit and egalitarian passion this space truly holds.

Unfortunately, this is a very endangered space, because it is left leaning (in theory) which makes it a target for alt-right invasion and attacks, but it speaks on behalf of a class of peoples not represented appropriately in the modern social sphere. There are individuals with power on all sides who want to make it so that male advocacy in leftist discourse is untenable, either to keep it the domain of hateful alt-right beliefs or to drive it out of leftist social justice discourse to maintain the under-representation of male issues.

In short, we are beset by all sides, and need to be very, very careful. It sucks that we've been put in this tightrope routine, but until men's issues as a valid left-wing concern reaches public acknowledgement, we have to be cautious.

Suicidal_Alone · 2021-03-24T00:58:16+00:00

I definitely agree, it's important that we're not lumped in with other men's advocacy groups. Also, I don't want it to turn into one. I'm really glad I found this Reddit. I care about women's issues, I think we all do, but we matter too.

im_just_dreamy · 2021-03-24T05:08:15+00:00

Already happening, ive been banned on subs i didnt even know existed. Subs i actually agree with. Ive been accused of brigading multiple times even though i was AGREEING with the sub i was permabanned on

Its almost always due to autoban bc im active in subs like this or things like PCM. Im literally left wing bruh, i dont get it

I was once banned from a sub having to do with my religious following bc of politics

Wtf, i mean reddit is known to jump to conclusions but DAMN

RockFourFour · 2021-03-24T16:35:06+00:00

I disagree, and here's why:

It doesn't matter that a lot of us aren't even straight, it doesn't matter that a lot of us are trans/cis-women or endys. It doesn't even matter that a large portion of us are people of color.

None of it matters because you are dealing with superstition. These people have been taught to believe myths and no amount of facts will ever be able to refute the faith-based arguments coming from these people's thought leaders.

It doesn't matter what we say or how we phrase it. These people will find a way to demonize us.

Massive_Citron · 2021-03-23T21:53:20+00:00

Completely agree with your point. Though it is a bit paranoid to my eyes, since I haven't seen those signs. It is good advice to expose our case of support for men and boys in order better reach a more fair society.

boundarychimps · 2021-03-23T23:14:10+00:00

and use disclaimers liberally

Don't be performative about it. This is a thing that can be taken too far, so that it ends up sounding disingenuous or mocking.

Quix_Nix · 2021-03-24T09:35:03+00:00

Yes but I hate it. We should try to create a new vocabulary for talking about these things. If we have the disclaimers themselves be a vector for progress, if it only be in the route of the words we use and how we understand them than that would be best.

Basically, our disclaimers should be "and I define x term this way" or "term x more accurately describes term y so I use term z to describe what you described as term y"

We need a new vocab in general, think how much socialism got warped during the cold war and how much it was warped again before during the age of non-marxist American socialist movements.

I would also say that there is a good chance it won't matter, the woke or CRT or "left wing" people who are really very conservative will always find something to pick on...

blueyb · 2021-03-24T01:51:51+00:00

I agree, but you're plea is going to fall on deaf ears. I've tried for years to convince members of the MRM on various platforms to try to not say things can easily be taken out of context, and to not upvote actual misogyny. And there is always a huge pushback, there are a ton of MRM members with a serious "THEM LIBS CANT MAKE ME AFRAID TO SPEAK! I'LL SAY WHAT I WANT"

Some people have no idea how important not giving our enemies easy ammo to discredit us is. But they don't.

Virtual-Knight · 2021-03-23T22:37:03+00:00

If I say who I think you're talking about, I'll probably get banned, so I'm not going to. But out of curiosity, how are you sure they're planning an attack? Have you been watching them? What red flags did you notice?

Blauwpetje · 2021-03-24T10:00:16+00:00

I think there are invasions in this group all the time, though I'm not sure if they're all planned and with bad intentions. The group has doubled in a few months. There may be many men who are coming here worried about society's misandry, but shocked at the criticism of the mainstream narrative they see here. What strikes me is that every time there is a post about dating, relationships, sexuality and approaching women, there are two or three new people starting discussions again we had umpteen times. They may be sincere or they may try to stagnate the debate on purpose. Being careful doesn't help; the group may not be banned or something, but the discussion is destroyed in its repetitiveness. The same may happen about other issues, but about that issue I see it the clearest.

adam-l · 2021-03-24T10:37:42+00:00

use disclaimers liberally.

Old members can follow this, no problem. But if you try to enforce it even for newcomers, there will be problems. It turns to preemptive self-censoring.

A good rule of thumb would be "We will not accept shaming as a means of censorship against men for thinking or feeling as men". I personally believe the mission statement of the sub is disclaimer enough for what is stands.

Choosing between the danger of self-censorship and of having the sub quarantined is no easy task, granted, but the example of MGTOW sub shows that even being quarantined, a sub can grow.

janearcade · 2021-03-24T03:43:08+00:00

I may be guilty of having not treating this sub with the respect it deserves, and apologize. I will be more of a listener going forward, so thank you for taking the time to post this.

AdNo9347 · 2021-03-24T09:56:50+00:00

I do agree as I tend to see more people trying to say "I hate women" on this sub to radicalize us (my opinion). Fortunately we have some good mods who are on the lookout (those threads tend to disapeear quickly)

Svennboii · 2021-03-23T23:10:05+00:00

I think a big problem is that people who are right leaning MRAs sometimes are Sexist and often are transphobic.

czerdec · 2021-03-25T14:43:27+00:00

You need to know what the words "falsifiable hypotheses" mean and how it relates to academic feminism and its reliability as a source of truth claims.

BloomingBrains · 2021-03-25T06:13:26+00:00

None of it matters because you are dealing with superstition. These people have been taught to believe myths and no amount of facts will ever be able to refute the faith-based arguments coming from these people's thought leaders.

So, when we are discussing any issues we should focus on the facts and use disclaimers liberally. We can't give the haters any ammo on here or any other platform.

If they don't care about facts, and the position is faith-based, then what use is sticking to facts? Not saying that facts don't matter and we should use illogical/emotional arguments, but how do you expect this to work?

I used to argue with religious people a lot when I was first discovering my atheism, and this is a problem I would run into. I cared about logic and my position was fact based, and they didn't value logic because their position was based on faith, so neither of us were able to convince the other. I learned that it's futile to try to "out faith" someone with logic because those two things are anithetical.

Instead, I think it's more effective to undermine their faith. For example, when debating god, I used to ask things like "If you believe in heaven, why do you wear a seatbelt? Shouldn't you want to die so you can get to the blissful place as soon as possible?" The idea being that you are exposing that they don't really believe, they just desperately want to believe because they are afraid of death.

A similar thing can be done with feminism. For example, you can show that a lot of feminists beliefs are actually harmful to women in the long run. My favorite example is the "nice guy" obsession. So we might say "Don't you think that promoting the idea that all men who are nice only do so because they feel entitled to sex and want to hide their creepiness will be harmful to women in the long run? After all, it encourages an attitude of the 'the devil I know' (otherwise known as the 'at least he is honest about being a pig' fallacy), meaning that women will be more likely to get with manipulative jerks then not?"

Granted, I'm guilty of trying to score points by explaining how awful the other side is. That is part cope, and part feeling that they can't really be convinced, so at least we can point out how awful they are. But if there WAS a way to convince anyone, I'd reckon it would be the one I explained. Most people are incredibly illogical and believe whatever they think is most beneficial or comfortable to them, which is what I found with the religion debate.

Title	What you need to know before talking about issues on this sub.
Author	UnHope20
Upvotes	267
Comments	106
Date	March 23, 2021 8:59 PM UTC (5 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/mbonwi/what_you_need_to_know_before_talking_about_issues/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/what-you-need-to-know-before-talking-about-issues.1189538 https://theredarchive.com/post/1189538

Comments