Help a feminist out?

truthjusticeca · 2013-03-10T04:58:16+00:00

Stop pretending that equality means only focussing on women.

In this paper, Murray A Strauss lists the different ways in which feminist activists deliberately distort and conceal evidence in order to create the false impression that men are more violent to their partners than women.

OztinL · 2013-03-10T05:20:01+00:00

I'd like feminists to stop telling everyone and insisting that Men's Rights groups are Anti-women dens of misogyny and hatred.

I have seen far more hateful things while browsing /r/feminism than I have browsing /r/mensrights.

I think one of the best examples of why feminism shouldn't be taken seriously Is how Warren Farrell's speech was viciously protested by feminists, seeing these women so hatefully lash out against men for virtually no reason beyond the fact that this man was speaking out for the sake of men, not the belittlement of women - The idea that there existed some other method of thinking beyond theirs would deem a protest appropriate.

They sure as hell don't argue for equality either because not once have I seen a popular feminist leader address the many issues that target men which you'll see are addressed all over this subreddit.

TheBauhausCure · 2013-03-10T05:26:56+00:00

Feminists want equality, but when it comes to things like parental rights, spousal abuse, child support, and workplace issues, women always come out ahead.

If a woman starts beating a man, and he hits back in self defense, people tend to think this is horrible.

If a woman gets pregnant by lying about her birth control, and the man doesn't want the baby, he is stuck for eighteen years paying child support.

If women want equality, they should want equality on all fronts, or admit that there are inherent, genetic differences between the sexes.

themountaingoat · 2013-03-10T05:44:52+00:00

Probably the best test to make yourself aware of how feminists are biased is too try swapping the genders in feminists statements, or try substituting men with black people in their statements. It should become clear how bigoted a lot of what feminists say is, if your bias isn't too great.

Another thing to do is to apply some of the arguments feminists use to demonstrate inequalities against women to inequalities that men face. For example, feminists assume that any unexplained portion of the wage gap is due to gender discrimination, and even argue that the portion that is accounted for by women's choices is a result of social pressures. If we apply this same logic to issues facing men we would be forced to conclude that men are massively discriminated against by the criminal justice system, the education system, are forced to work longer hours and do more dangerous work, and commit suicide more often due to discrimination and social pressures. But not a single feminists group thinks those things are an important problem at all, and in fact feminists fight against acknowledgement of those issues, and even make up entirely bogus statistics to attempt to show the opposite.

Why do they not apply logic consistently? Because it is not about the arguments; feminists already know the conclusions they want. They believe that women are victims and better than men, and that men are oppressors and worse than women, and they use whatever methods of research they need to in each case to 'prove' that point.

Another example of selective choosing of research methods is shown by the data feminists use on various crimes. To study the incidence of rape they use surveys, and don't even ask the same questions to men as they do to women. They also use questions that include lots of behaviour that are not rape to anyone but feminists. Predictably, they get the result that there is an epidemic of rape against women from these surveys.

However, when it comes to domestic violence feminists suddenly start to doubt that surveys are a good measure of the incidence of a crime. Surveys which are of far better quality than the surveys feminists use to determine the incidence of rape (because they don't ask leading questions that broaden definitions), generally find that women are more violent than men in relationships. However feminists say that the more accurate way to measure DV is police and hospital reports, despite the obvious biases against men coming forward, and the social stigma associated with this.

Again, this is because feminists don't really think there is a proper way to measure crime. They believe that women are victims and men are not, and so use whatever tools they can to attempt to prove this.

You probably haven't realized this, but almost everything feminists are doing today is based upon falsehoods and is more about spreading anti-male ideology than about helping anyone. Honestly, these attempts from feminists to accommodate men are too little, too late. You can't spread a sexist ideology for 50+ years and then expect people to not blame you when you stop spreading it as much.

In order for feminism to redeem itself it would need to come clean about all the falsehoods it spreads, stop all of the advocacy it does, try to fix the damage it has caused, and apologize. However this will never happen, so people who actually care about equality should stop calling themselves feminists.

jolly_mcfats · 2013-03-10T05:38:02+00:00

The big one would be to recognize all sexism as wrong, and fight as strongly against sexism that benefits women as sexism that disadvantages them. This means, for example, taking the punishment gap in sentences for criminals as seriously as the wage gap. I know it is hard to get the same fire going asking for what amounts to some adversity, and that many would argue "we'll argue for the bad stuff when we have the good stuff"- but that just makes the movement seem to be a movement of convenience.

The other one would be to listen to the arguments made by antifeminists- then either DISPROVE the arguments, or turn around and clean house. The National Organization for Women, for example, has been campaigning against joint custody for YEARS now, and this is documented not only on father's rights blogs, but on NOW's own "action alerts". Where are the Jezebel articles on this subject? Where are the professors of women's studies? Why is it that only men's groups see that inequal access to YOUR CHILDREN is an injustice? If feminists fought this battle themselves, then antifeminists wouldn't have to, and a lot less people would be antifeminist.

Finally, just listen to what men in the masculist movement are saying as they try to deconstruct their gender roles. There seems to be this weird idea that men need to be supervised as they articulate their own experiences. Periodically there is a post like this in /r/askfeminists saying basically "I'm trying to think more clearly about men's issues" what do they get? "Well we support that- the most important man's issue is how to not be a rapist". Not being a rapist is a good thing, but it's not deconstructing your gender. I haven't seen any acknowledgement of ideas like disposability enter feminism. Just acknowledge that something called "feminism" should not be the amazon.com of inequalites- some one stop shop that will take care of anyones issues, whether they be transgendered, queer, black, or men. Especially with masculism, feminism just does not have a great track record. Feminism will embrace guys like this if they say the right thing, but will protest men like Warren Farrell if they don't like everything he has to say. That is crazy.

danredux · 2013-03-10T06:27:55+00:00

Feminism has 2 faces, one is "we are fighting for mens rights", and the other is "men are already super privileged". It creates an impossible situation. If we bring up our issues, we are faced either with something along the lines of "feminism will fix that" or "what about teh menz", so either dismissal or mockery.

It's hard not to hate a group that makes fun of you so much.

The other issue is that feminism points out men as the enemy very, very often. Every single thing they seem to stand for is spoken in such a way that men are the enemy.

It's "men earn more than women", instead of "women dont earn enough". It's "men need to stop raping women", instead of "women are being raped too often".

Then there's the sexism. I mean, feminism revolves around the idea that women need quotas and extra funding and help to succeed. Not only that, but feminism has attacked women who chose to stay at home, when in reality it should be her choice.

There's also a dash of sex-play here and there. For example, feminists in EU want to ban pornography, prostitution is a no-go, spending money AGAINST the male temporary vasectomy that has been around for a decade, not accepting that men can be raped to. This clearly shows that feminists want to keep the control of sex in the womans hands.

Finally, it's the hypocrisy. When Obama recently expressed joy upon hearing the news "there are now 25% more females graduating college than males", we felt that stab to our gender. After all, when males were graduating 17% more often it was a serious issue. It's the blind ignorance and belittling of my gender when we request "Mens Rooms" and "International Mans Day" only to be laughed at.

TL;DR: The feminist movement as a whole is, by far, one of the most sexist groups I know of.

TeaDrinkingBarbarian · 2013-03-10T19:59:48+00:00

What should we start doing?

Base your arguments on facts, as opposed to feelings.

Treat us like human beings. If you wouldn't want a woman to be treated in a certain way, don't treat a man that way either.

What should we stop doing?

Spreading blatent lies and made up "facts".

Generalising, demonizing and ridiculing men.

Crazy shit like this, this, and this.

Treating men like animals who need to be trained to behave in a way you like.

Stop being so angry. A lot of feminists seem to be holding grudges for things that didn't happen to them, against people who didn't do anything wrong. Yes, there was a time when women were grossly oppresssed, but that was a long time ago and we (the men of today) cannot control what happened in the past, in many cases before we were even born.

boradin · 2013-03-10T20:47:32+00:00

I think we all know that there are reasonable feminists too, but for the most part, MRAs deal with the over-the-top feminists, and just get tired of dealing with them.

Pecanpig · 2013-03-10T08:49:00+00:00

What do you think of the feminist movement as a whole?

I think it's similar to Nazi Germany. Most of the people are decent people who are simply ignorant of what the people at the top are doing, but that doesn't make Nazis any less evil.

What should we stop doing?

Stop supporting: male genital mutilation, affirmative action, "political correctness", bias in the legal system and censorship.

What should we start doing?

Stop opposing all of those things I just listed.

And stop making "Feminists and MRA's should be friends" threads in here, they clog things up and just piss off the general community.

Oh, and every time you hear of a woman who gets pregnant without the fathers consent, condemn her as worse than a rapist and treat her like any other criminal of a sex crime.

How about some inherent flaws within the idea of feminism itself?

"Feminism is the notion that the problems of both genders can be solved by focusing on the problems of only one"

Not to mention the nature of Feminism as a ideology limits it's ability to change in any positive way.

PS: I notice you're getting downvoted. Yeah, relating yourself to a group which openly admits to hating men will do that, especially in this sub.

2013-03-10T11:46:57+00:00

I've been frequenting this subreddit for a few days,

Great.

I suggest lurking for a few months to get a better picture.

spermjack_attack · 2013-03-10T22:59:13+00:00

One think I think helps make for a better feminism (and a better feminist) is to broaden you familiarity with different feminist writers. What's awesome about the 21st century is that never before has so much feminist scholarship published. I think it's awesome when a feminist (like you) questions the contents of feminism because I think attitudes like that help make for a stronger feminism.

I think you are on the right track, and I beginning from the start of feminism the concern for oppression and gender are important concerns. So, I think investigating these two issues is key to feminist progress. In light of this, feminism has started investigating how the different dimensions of identity which intersect with gender produce new forms of oppression which need to be addressed by feminists. The ways oppression articulates with gender, race, class, sexuality, etc are all of concern to feminists, and should make up the start of our project on social justice.

I think reading people like bell hooks (Feminism is for Everybody), Judith (Jack) Halberstam (Female Masculinity), Allan Johnson, and Patricia Hill Collins (here) are all awesome places to start. I guess if you keep going other good authors are Judith Butler, Christine Delphy, and Simone de Beauvoir. These are all awesome feminist, and I think a lot of them have deployed awesome critiques of feminism which have really done some cool things!

2013-03-11T13:38:48+00:00

I'm not sure if those kinds of feminists represent the majority or not.

They are the ones in power.

In other words, you think the cause is noble.

No, we think the cause is lost. There is no hope of saving Feminism.

(Since) feminism has made me feel better about myself, it's hard for me to see its flaws.

We understand that feminism is attractive to women with victim-complexes. It gives you purpose and makes you feel needed and protected. We also understand that this makes it difficult for you to look at it critically.

What should we stop doing?

You should stop lying. If you advocate for female entitlement and taking rights away from men, don't turn around and say you support equality... it makes people hate you for being dishonest.

How about some inherent flaws within the idea of feminism itself?

Patriarchy Theory is, and has always been, a lie. We do not live in a patriarchal society and even if we did, the men in power would make decisions that benefit women over other men.

DavidByron · 2013-03-11T18:14:03+00:00

you have a right to your opinion

That's a very unusual position for a feminist to take. Normally they say nobody has a right to an opinion other than the feminist position.

In other words, you think the cause is noble

No. Equality is noble. Feminism is political hatred of men.

What should we stop doing?

Look, you can't stop feminism being a hate movement. You just need to get out of it before it fucks with your head. Which it probably already has. You can't redeem it.

But specifically feminism needs to,

(1) stop passing laws that discriminate against men

(2) stop spreading hateful stereotypes and other lies about men

(3) stop characterising men as sub-human

(4) stop encouraging discrimination against men in society

(5) stop characterising men as a threat

(6) stop making up lies about men in history which tend to make people believe men are subhuman

That's the same list of things which makes up any hate movement. More broadly speaking feminists need to stop treating men as the enemy in their tribalist morality of people we like (women) vs people we hate (men).

rightsbot · 2013-03-10T04:58:17+00:00

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Troiseme · 2013-03-10T10:20:42+00:00

It's just that I didn't know feminism could be so off-putting.

Take a look at its actions as an outsider and you may just see why for one.

I apologize in advance for generalizing, but by and large, it looks like you think that Webster's definition of feminism is perfectly benevolent and acceptable. However, you also think the definition doesn't matter if the participants don't practice what they preach. And hey, it's true. Some feminists think women should be better instead of equal.

You first have to realize that in talking about feminism and that feminists especially as an outsider one at best can really only talk about it in generalities. While this may irk you, it just makes things easier when talking about them. And I think a good number of MRA's do know and that recognize there are different types of feminism/feminists.

In other words, you think the cause is noble, but the way some feminists present themselves needs a lot of work.

Its not just how it presents itself. Its also the actions of those that are part of the movement. As well as feminist theory of patriarchy which is very off putting. And that feminism seemingly refusal to look at any other gender theory or consider one. This is not taking in the fact that feminism has a monopoly on gender studies and very much like any monopoly wants to keep it. Which I find ironic and funny in how liberal and even socialist feminism tends to be in nature. And lastly the feminist mindset in general. I am mostly talking about the general feminist mantra that there is no such thing as female privilege and that women always have it worse than men no matter what.

levelate · 2013-03-10T19:22:29+00:00

this shit again.

we had this thread no more than a few days ago

mikesteane · 2013-03-10T06:21:33+00:00

Sure, which way did she come in?

Title	Help a feminist out?
Author	Troiseme
Upvotes	8
Comments	44
Date	March 10, 2013 4:56 AM UTC (13 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/mensrights/comments/1a0d94/help-a-feminist-out/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/help-a-feminist-out.1607897 https://theredarchive.com/post/1607897

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