How to avoid becoming a new Feminism?

girlwriteswhat · 2011-04-15T13:51:31+00:00

Set clear goals, sure. But the movement won't die out unless a more or less equal focus is put on Men's Responsibilities.

This, more than anything, is my criticism of feminism. Right from the beginning, it's been about equal rights without a corresponding focus on equal responsibilities. Feminists want unlimited freedom and unlimited choice and unlimited opportunity, without having to own the work, the responsibilities or the consequences.

Her right to have sex outside marriage with whomever she wants, without censure, and 100% her choice to keep the resulting baby without being shunned? Fine. But don't then hold the government and the man responsible for that child.

The right to choose the family life she wants AND the career she wants? Fine. But don't then hold employers responsible for paying you more than men so your lifetime earnings will be the same as that guy who didn't take five years off to raise kids.

The right to walk anywhere she wants at any time of the day or night? Fine. But don't then offload (onto ALL men!) responsibility for your being mugged/raped when it was you who decided to walk down that alley at 2 AM in five-inch heels you can't run in.

The right to excel at engineering or mathematics or science? Sure. But don't then expect standards to be selectively lowered, subsidies and incentives put in place, and entire curricula be modified to ensure your success over others who may be more qualified. And if you do milk the government and various foundations for the cost of the education you insisted on getting (thereby displacing someone else who wanted it), accept that you have some moral responsibility to do more with your degree than hang it on a wall.

Feminism IS all about "I am woman, hear me roar." But it's also all about, "Sheesh, this shit is HEAVY! I don't want to lift it. Someone else can."

It used to be that women were forced into a very narrow social construct, with very limited choices. Husbands were allowed to discipline wives, even physically. Why was that? Because men were held socially accountable for their wives' behavior. Men in general were held responsible for women--it was the duty of every right-thinking man to make sure the women got onto the lifeboats first, to make sure the women were sheltered from the harsher aspects of life.

Feminism advocates for total freedom of choice and behavior, but they want men to remain largely accountable for the costs and consequences of those choices. If there were an equal focus on the costs that come along with the benefits, the movement would be very different. Want to have equal rights? Open your own doors then, lift your own heavy shit, don't ask for handouts, and don't even think of jumping the queue when it's time to get in the lifeboats.

And I do see a lot of the same shit in the MRM. I forget where, but not long ago someone here was arguing for the right of a father to choose to "adopt" out his child at any point until the child is 18--basically, I changed my mind and don't want to be responsible for it, someone else can look after the kid now. That shit's going to have to be secured before anyone's going to take the movement very seriously. No one can have unlimited rights when other people are involved.

awkfoo · 2011-04-15T18:35:21+00:00

I'm curious... when did the women's rights movement talk about women's responsibilities?

You can't have rights without responsibilities.

Kill_The_Rich · 2011-04-15T10:22:35+00:00

how can MR keep away from the same pitfalls?

A kill switch. If we set out clearly defined, attainable goals (none of the fictitious "smash the matriarchy" bullshit so common amongst feminists), we'll build in our own destruction. Once those goals are attained, others can point to their attainment as proof that the movement is unnecessary. That, and we should avoid the cult-like aspects of feminism. There should be no rock-star MRAs, we shouldn't start calling ourselves "masculists". We should stick with the "Men's Rights Advocate" label...because it describes what we do, without confining us to a bigger ideology.

We're basically doing that. We're slowly forming a core-set of issues which sort of define the MRM, and we're starting to sand out the rough edges on contended issues. The MRM may stretch back to the 1970's...but it got a huge kick in the pants in the 2000's. It's still relatively young compared to the centuries-old WRM, so we have a long way to go before we need to worry about the excesses of the MRM. This sort of thing won't be a serious issue for any of us engaging in this discussion...it may be an issue for our grandson's, if the MRM survives long enough. But for now, we have more pressing issues to worry about...like factionalization, entryism, etc.

Gigafrost · 2011-04-15T17:39:53+00:00

I don't think we can. But there's always the possibility we won't be so bad simply because we might not be based on an erroneous assumption like Feminism is/was.

The prevalent adaption of the "women are/were oppressed/worse off" opinion-as-a-fact meme is what prevents Feminism's wrongs from being righted. The statement is actually an opinion, but people will state it as if it's a fact. The facts would actually be details that people list that attempt to support this (such as "women couldn't vote before 19XX"). But going from facts like those to "women are/were oppressed/worse off" requires judgment calls on how those issues balance with issues that men have faced or are also facing.

In other words, "women are/were oppressed/worse off" is only a "fact" if you completely ignore (or downplay) all issues that men faced. (E.G. "women are the real victim of war") This is the underlying assumption beneath feminism, even the so-called "gender-egalitarian" third wave feminists (who will often preface their messages to us by stating one of the many forms of the erroneous "fact".)

People simply cannot accept that feminism has done some good things for the wrong reason so they won't look at all of the bad things done because of that same reason. So, while I cannot say the MRM won't become corrupt, I can say that its most basic assumption of "men's issues have been ignored" and overall being a reaction to feminism means that its roots are different. (I'm just cynical and think it'll become bad in some sort of different way.)

thetrollking · 2011-04-16T04:25:32+00:00

Feminism was never about equality, they claimed it was but it wasn't. It was always about getting male rights and privileges without male responsibilties while shrugging traditional female responsibilities while keeping their privileges. So, women get all the privileges and rights and men get the burdens and responsibilties.

From 1913: http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Fraud_of_Feminism

YIdothis · 2011-04-15T11:01:17+00:00

Ok, I'm pretty new, so hi everyone!

This may seem rather simplistic and limited, but how about we establish that addressing inequalities and distortions of men is the primary aims? Perhaps I am wrong, but if there are inequalities, and we are essentially a subset of egalitarianism why distort it? That is what I often see as the major failing of feminism, that the title was altered to monopolise the principles of equality from the activist post.

[Edit] Comments, criticism, clarification requests encouraged. Also replaced 'watchdogs' as it was not what I intended. My bad.

vintermann · 2011-04-15T09:44:55+00:00

I'm sure most of us are all for equality between the sexes, but (I think) so was most of feminists (in actuality, not just in words) at one time.

I'm not so sure. It's often pointed out that the suffragettes, who certainly had legitimate concerns about their own freedom in society, also defended female privileges such as going first into the lifeboats, and actively shamed men into fighting in WWI.

There have been notable exceptions, but feminism as a movement never thought much about the things women might have to give up for equality's sake.

What are the negative sides of contemporary feminism, and how can we avoid that they plague also the future of MR?

I don't know, but I find it very important. Don't get bitter, don't get angry, don't get sidetracked, keep the moral high ground. Don't polarize. For heaven's sake don't be so quick to bash those feminists who actually support us, even if it's just on an issue or two. It's better than nothing, and it will be harder for them to sustain anti-male rage if you stick to being consistent and fair.

Demonspawn · 2011-04-15T17:09:24+00:00

I'm sure most of us are all for equality between the sexes

Well, I'm sure this will be unpopular, but to be for equality between the sexes don't we first have to ask the question "are the sexes equal?"

Are men and women equal?

Honestly. Really. Let's ask the question that is begging to be asked because the answer is assumed.

Let's begin with a rhetorical question: Can men get pregnant?

Well, I don't think anyone here is going to debate the obvious answer to that question, and that answer is no. So, it is undeniable that men and women are different.

Aha, but the astute debater will note that differences does not mean that they can't be equal. After all, four quarters and a dollar bill are different, yet equal, right?

Well, when we look at the singular dimension of purchasing power, then we will find that four quarters and a dollar bill are equal. However, the retort will quickly come that people, for some reason, will prefer a wad of singles over a pocket full of quarters. The reason is because equality is measured in more than just one dimension and in the dimension of portability bills obviously have an advantage over weighty coins.

So are humans one-dimensional creatures? No, most assuredly not. So, given that men and women are different and our species is not one-dimensional, how can men and women be equal?

Well, either they can be equal because everything is weighed out so that the advantages men have over women are exactly offset by the advantages women have over men, or because we live in an existence where nothing matters at all. Given that we are in an existence where relative values have flux, then it is impossible to state that we are in a situation where everything is perfectly offset... because any change would ruin that balance and it is undeniable that we do experience change. So obviously the first condition cannot be true. So are we in an existence where nothing matters? Hardly. So we must settle on the only remaining option: men and women are not equal.

There, I've done it. I've proved that men and women are not equal. So now, why are we attempting to influence our society and base it upon a false premise? Are we so intent on destroying our society? Do we hate ourselves?

mikesteane · 2011-04-15T14:05:57+00:00

Having read a couple of posts by women who have been abused by men, in particular one from a pregnant girl, whose partner agreed to look after the child and then said he wanted nothing to do with it in the eighth month of her pregnancy, I can say that MRA attitudes are nothing like those of modern feminists. Replies were full of sympathy and well-wishing as well as good advice. There was none of the feminist attitude that it is a good thing someone is paying for the behaviour of evil women even if it is not the evil women themselves. That men's rights activists might go the way of feminists is unlikely. Men have a built-in tendency to be chivalrous and, although there may be some twisted reaction to the horrors males are currently suffering, it is unlikely that we will turn into the kind of people who support the Society for Cutting Up Men or other malicious feminists.

Quazz · 2011-04-15T12:46:46+00:00

Set clear goals, that once achieved, the movement will die out.

2011-04-16T11:48:16+00:00

Feminisms problem isn't that it wanted equal rights for women it's that it created and propagandised a mythology on why women were oppressed. It then created an industry of college professors, women's groups and organisations that relied on this mythology to get funding and support.

Men's rights is also creating such a mythology/ideology. The theories of 'Alpha and beta males' and concepts of 'Female Hypergamy' explain why women and feminists act the way they do but they don't actually have any more evidence supporting them than the theories of 'Patriarchy' and 'Rape Culture' do.

trashacount12345 · 2011-04-16T16:38:44+00:00

To be honest, this makes me think the main goal should be about equal rights between genders and look at both sides of the issue. Obviously there are issues where men lose, but I wonder if there are others where women lose but it's hard to see from the perspective of being a man. In all likelihood this movement will go overboard.

imbecile · 2011-04-15T16:49:25+00:00

Very simple: don't build up bullshit ideological frameworks.

RobotBuddha · 2011-04-15T17:35:46+00:00

I think it faces a lot of troubles from the name alone already. The idea of something named for the rights of only one sex just makes me a bit wary. It's like having a group called white power. It might start out as being for racial equality, but you can guess pretty clearly where it's going to end up just by the title. I think, in the end, that goes for any equality movement that only has the name of one group in it.

I'd be a lot more keen to join up with a movement entitled "Holy shit people, stop being assholes to each other based on what kind of junk you have in your pants!"

SharkSpider · 2011-04-15T18:24:02+00:00

MRAs wont be like feminists because we won't tell people who disagree with us that they deserve to be arrested, kicked out of their college and publicly humiliated for an accusation, when feminists will continue to tell us that we deserve to be raped for so much as questioning their dogmatic beliefs.

We won't be like them becase we hate real rapists as much as anyone, while radical feminists react to a false rape accuser with unbridled sympathy and empathy. We don't look at real rape cases and ask the rapist to apologize for enabling people to lie about being raped, even though it's true. We know how to recognize a real victim and a cooked up one.

disposable_human · 2011-04-15T15:45:53+00:00

Too late, bro. If you had any idea how the "rest of the world" perceives MRA's it's already in a more negative light than the most militant feminists.

selfsufficientnigga · 2011-04-15T16:12:25+00:00

And why shouldn't it be like feminism?

You cannot fight fair against someone who fights dirty.

ycombinator · 2011-04-15T09:26:26+00:00

Well the thing is...

Feminism was ruined by women.

Men are not Women.

So we should be fine.

mean0dean0 · 2011-04-15T18:56:07+00:00

POWER. Power corrupts, especially state power. Feminism was a laudable goal, when it was purely focused on the positive improvement of women's lives and options in society. However, once feminists began to use official powers for their own ends, negative reinforcement or even pure punishment became the rule--fining, outlawing, even jailing bad behavior, while subsidizing through theft women regardless of their behavior. The worst thing that could happen to MR is getting ahold of that sort of power (some would say, again).

LZPWN · 2011-04-16T11:35:31+00:00

Too late.

2011-04-15T22:25:10+00:00

Make sure we have a 0 tolerance policy towards misogyny and any leader that steps up that is misogynistic in actions or policy is shot down. Also, don't blame women for all of life's woes.

Feminism's downfall was its development into a misandric machine and the rise of powerful sexists due to its inability to self police. Something we have to make sure we do from the start.

Scott2508 · 2011-04-15T13:30:30+00:00

honestly we are avoiding it simply by acknowledging our dark side as well as our light , we know that SOME men are rapists , and dangerous and are wrong , we dont belive we are the superior gender .

Feminisim has started its own downfall by a war against men , by categorising them as perverts, abusers and war mongers and have influenced policy making in the world around this, i have yet to see an MRA that works with the same mentality .

Title	How to avoid becoming a new Feminism?
Author	toblotron
Upvotes	12
Comments	43
Date	April 15, 2011 8:45 AM UTC (15 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/gqm6m/how_to_avoid_becoming_a_new_feminism/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/how-to-avoid-becoming-a-new-feminism.1040933 https://theredarchive.com/post/1040933