Is the US the only country where more men are raped than women? (x-post for TrueReddit)

[–]Simcom 20 points21 points22 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Popular-Uprising- 27 points28 points29 points 14 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

[–]Alanna 20 points21 points22 points 14 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

[–]luciansolaris 2 points3 points4 points 14 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

[–]drinkthebleach 4 points5 points6 points 14 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]luciansolaris 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]drinkthebleach 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Alanna 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]banished_one 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]krangksh 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Orimos 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]C0CKPUNCHER 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]luciansolaris 4 points5 points6 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Sharkictus 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]krangksh 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Prisoners are not videotaped and monitored 24/7. Many prisons (probably most) don't videotape prisoners in their cells because of privacy issues. Seems like an obvious opportunity to rape since most prisons are crowded enough that everyone has to share a cell, but I think there is a meaningful argument to be made for why it's cruel and unusual to force all prisoners to be videotaped 24 hours a day just in case. The other issue is that there is simply no budget for installing enough cameras to videotape every square inch of a prison, and anywhere that's left is going to become "the place to rape". Many prisoners have prison gang affiliations, which come in very handy for keeping watch and using extra muscle to rape someone if that is what they intend. There are simply not enough officers to stop this (the prisoner/officer ratio has to be at least 30:1 in most prisons).

[+][deleted] 14 years ago (59 children) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–][deleted] 24 points25 points26 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]overcontrol 13 points14 points15 points 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Alanna 5 points6 points7 points 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]folkloregonian 16 points17 points18 points 14 years ago (36 children) | Copy Link

I can already feel the downvotes coming, but I respectfully disagree. That is, I think you are correct to say that "When a man is raped in prison by another man, it's not because of fucking misogyny!" but I don't think that's quite what the article is arguing.

The author just says that misogyny plays into the hierarchy of power that sexual assault in prisons establishes/enforces. That is, "bitch" is a word used to refer to women (literally meaning female in some contexts), so if a male prisoner who has been sexually assaulted is then called a bitch, there are tones of "I just fucked you like a woman and now you are one."

It sounds to me like the author is saying that this is a problem because it limits our "understanding of prison sexual assault as necessarily entailing penetration with a penis."

Also, victimization is about victims.

[–]Alanna 23 points24 points25 points 14 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

[–]folkloregonian 6 points7 points8 points 14 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

[–]Alanna 13 points14 points15 points 14 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

The whole article in general, but she really gets going after talking about numbers and statistics. She starts out the paragraph, "One overlap, though, between prison rape of men and non-prison rape of women is the way American society views both as an inevitability." But she uses that as a segue to talk almost exclusively about women-- specifically, rape of women by men.

As long as we understand sexual assault as inevitable because men are naturally sexually voracious and sexually violent, there's no logical argument for trying to prevent sexual assault on the assailant side, because the only real solution is for women to protect themselves from roving, uncontrollable beasts. How can one stop men from raping, the argument goes, if some men are "natural" rapists?

This is true, but she misses the point. More recent studies on rape and sexual aggression/assault that actually bother to study men as victims find that women are every bit as prone to sexual coercion as men, possibly moreso: Almost 3% of men reported forced sex and 22% reported verbal coercion in a romantic relationship in the last year. Almost 2.3% of women reported forced sex and 25% reported verbal coercion. From: Predictors of Sexual Coercion.

She talks about "racism, classism, ableism and homophobia" but every single statistic she uses that entire paragraph is about women.

Then there's this gem:

Feminists have long argued that sexual assault is about power and not sex – it's about turning what should be a pleasurable act into a weapon and an expression of dominance. We've argued that the role of sexual assault in society isn't just about individual violence – one person wanting to do harm to another person for a specific reason – but that it's a broader form of gender-based terrorism, where women and girls are positioned as always vulnerable, and where rape serves as a pervasive threat which curtails our full freedom to move through public space. Those things are all true, and sexual assault of women and girls is still very much a social tool employed to keep us fearful and relegated to the private sphere.

She's just paraphrasing Brownmiller's "Against Our Will" (which I mentioned in another comment). Even if you don't buy that men are raped more than women (a statistic that I agree is questionable), it still remains that men are raped a fuck lot more than anyone wants to acknowledge. She herself even calls this "horrifying." What I find even more horrifying though is her acknowledgement that a "horrifying" number of men are raped in prison (she doesn't even acknowledge the non-prison male victims) but rape is still somehow "gender-based terrorism" against "women and girls" to keep them "fearful and relegated to the private sphere?"

Then, yeah, there's the part where she manages to blame prison rape on misogyny. Prison rapists probably rape for many reasons, but I bet they don't rape other men because they hate women.

Being raped in prison is largely (and falsely) assumed to be a crime with exclusively male victims and exclusively male perpetrators, both of whom are considered reprehensible.

It's not falsely assumed at all. She claims that female prisoners are twice as likely to experience assault, but what her source actually claims is that female prisoners/jail inmates are twice as likely to report assault, which is very different. And in any case, it ignores the fact that 93% of prisoners are male, so even if the female assault rate really is twice as high, there's still a fuckload more men being raped than women in sheer numbers. So yeah, prison rape is mostly (though admittedly not exclusively) men raping other men. And it must be assumed that much of the rape of female prisoners, especially by other inmates, is NOT by men, but is women raping other women. But at any rate, she concludes by, again, talking about female prisoners. You know, the 7% of the prison population.

She also completely ignores the very real problem of women sexually abusing men in prison, especially boys in juvenile centers:

95% of sexually abused youth in correctional facilities reported being abused by female staff. From Sexual Victimization in Juvenile Facilities, 2008-09
Among inmates reporting staff sexual misconduct, ~ 65% reported a female aggressor. From Sexual Victimization in Prisons and Jails Reported by Inmates, 2008-09

the use of sexual violence to maintain power (male power, state power) and to keep a less-powerful group living in fear is a constant.

Again with the rape as a tool of "male power."

And then at the end she somehow manages to tie in-- of all things-- reproductive rights??! They have literally nothing in common except her persistent theme of male domination and control.

[–][deleted] 8 points9 points10 points 14 years ago* (7 children) | Copy Link

They have literally nothing in common except her persistent theme of male domination and control.

Yes, because that is what this article is about. It's an interesting thesis that is rather valid, IMO. To me, this was an essay on why feminists should be very concerned about prison rape. Not, because "women are effected by it!" But because the power structures feminists seek to overthrow are very much an institution in prison.

I don't know why you're upset about her creating parallels to other issues. That's all she's doing but you're incredibly offended by it. She's not saying "women are the true victims of prison rape" she's just framing the issue in a way that women might understand. For fuck's sake, guys.

edit to say you used the phrase "male domination and control" and it's more accurate to say that the article is about "domination and control" in general.

[–]Alanna 7 points8 points9 points 14 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

I'm a woman. I relate more to the male prisoners' plight than I do to this "restriction of movement" she talks about women experiencing. I actively refuse to be "pre-victimized" by rape by being afraid of something that statistically probably won't happen to me. But she spends a LOT of time talking about how women are affected by it, whole paragraphs where she doesn't even mention male prisoners, and other whole paragraphs where she tries to minimize the problem of rape of male prisoners when compared to female prisoners (despite male prisoners being 93% of the US prison population).

She's not just creating parallels. She's reframing the whole issue as one of male domination and oppression of women through rape. If feminists only want to be concerned about prison rape because it's another example of "patriarchal" male violence and control, they're missing the point. And you seem to have missed my statistics that show that women, when given the opportunity, are just as aggressive, dominating, controlling, and rapey as men.

[–][deleted] 8 points9 points10 points 14 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]Alanna 3 points4 points5 points 14 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link

She's attempting to subvert the notion that rape is about gender based terrorism.

I'm sorry, did we even read the same article? Here's that paragraph again:

Feminists have long argued that sexual assault is about power and not sex – it's about turning what should be a pleasurable act into a weapon and an expression of dominance. We've argued that the role of sexual assault in society isn't just about individual violence – one person wanting to do harm to another person for a specific reason – but that it's a broader form of gender-based terrorism, where women and girls are positioned as always vulnerable, and where rape serves as a pervasive threat which curtails our full freedom to move through public space. Those things are all true, and sexual assault of women and girls is still very much a social tool employed to keep us fearful and relegated to the private sphere. [emphasis added]

Let's break that down:

Sexual assault is about power, not sex.
Sexual assault is about turning what should be a pleasurable act into a weapon and an expression of dominance.
The role of sexual assault in society isn't just about individual violence.
Sexual assault is a broader form of gender-based terrorism, where women and girls are positioned as always vulnerable
Rape serves as a pervasive threat which curtails our [women's and girls'] full freedom to move through public space.

Those would be the things that "are all true," and she emphasizes it in the same sentence by reiterating that rape against women and girls is still "very much" a social tool employed to keep "us" (presumably, females) fearful and relegated to the private sphere.

She talks-- repeatedly-- about rape as a male tool of dominance and power. She never even uses the word patriarchy-- she doesn't have to. She repeatedly emphasizes female victims and male perpetrators, while downplaying at every chance male victims and female perpetrators.

Edit: Corrected a typo. "Rape," not "tape."

[+][deleted] 14 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[+][deleted] 14 years ago (20 children) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[+][deleted] 14 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]sTiKyt -2 points-1 points0 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+][deleted] 14 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]Commercialtalk 25 points26 points27 points 14 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

[+][deleted] 14 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]jarofglass 18 points19 points20 points 14 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[+][deleted] 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]jarofglass 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]InflatableTomato -2 points-1 points0 points 14 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]jarofglass 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Alanna 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Commercialtalk 6 points7 points8 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]InflatableTomato -6 points-5 points-4 points 14 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]Commercialtalk 7 points8 points9 points 14 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]InflatableTomato -1 points0 points1 point 14 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Thats a terrible example, that is the most vercitle word, it can mean almost anything.

How is that a terrible example? In both cases the original, literal meaning is completely lost. That's the analogy. Can you explain what versatility has to do with it losing its original meaning?

Anyway, not that it matters, but versatile* (not trying to hold this one against you, but as a non-native speaker I always appreciate when people correct me)

You dont think it is?

No I don't. Are you saying that the purpose of people using the expression being a dick is actually to make a misandric statement about the male gender? That the concept the person is trying to convey is something different than, say, asshole? Really?

you are an expert in slang I take it?

I'm not an expert, but not completely oblivious to how language evolves either.

[–]Commercialtalk 3 points4 points5 points 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

How is that a terrible example? In both cases the original, literal meaning is completely lost. That's the analogy. Can you explain what versatility has to do with it losing its original meaning?

because:

1: it still retains its original meaning see: To fuck

2: Bitch only has so many meanings. The word fuck can mean almost anything

Anyway, not that it matters, but versatile* (not trying to hold this one against you, but as a non-native speaker I always appreciate when people correct me)

Yeah, i meant to fix that, but it slipped from my radar. Usually I just type and fix any spelling mistakes after.

I'm not an expert, but not completely oblivious to how language evolves either.

This is something Ive always had trouble with. Yes language does evolve, but perhaps some words evolve differently? The word fuck for example might take a different evolutionary path than bitch, because of its original meaning. The way the word evolves is shaped by the original meaning.

Perhaps slurs evolve differently as well, seeing how fuck was never a slur towards a certain group of people.

As you'll often hear all women referred to as "bitches", but you dont see all men being called "dicks". You dont hear "fuck dicks, get money" because it doesnt make any sense.

"bitches" are synonymous to mean, mean spirited, gold digging, shallow women. Which means all women are like this, this is sexist.

[–]folkloregonian 2 points3 points4 points 14 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[+][deleted] 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]folkloregonian 4 points5 points6 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+][deleted] 14 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]folkloregonian 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points8 points 14 years ago* (14 children) | Copy Link

[–]Alanna 3 points4 points5 points 14 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 14 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]Alanna 3 points4 points5 points 14 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 9 points10 points11 points 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Again, you're misreading this whole thing. It was written for a feminist magazine, and that's reason she keeps relating it to feminist issues. Reread the final paragraph:

And just as we've seen sexual violence against women significantly decrease as women have made greater social, economic and political gains, we're not going to see prison assaults decrease until we radically restructure our punitive criminal justice system, and until there's the same kind of righteous moral outrage over our draconian laws, absurd incarceration rates and levels of state-sanctioned abuse of the people that same state is charged with holding as there is about, say, women thinking they might have the right to their own bodies.

She's saying "hey, feminists, see this issue with prison rape? Until we get as outraged about it as we are about reproductive rights, we should be ashamed, because it's a serious issue." She only references gender because she's attempting to subvert the notion that it's about gender at all -- somehow you're drawing the opposite conclusion. You're seeing what you want to see.

[–]Alanna 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago* (8 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 14 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[+][deleted] 14 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Alanna 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]TraumaPony 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 15 points16 points17 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 15 points16 points17 points 14 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

[–]TimesWasting 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

[+][deleted] 14 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]TimesWasting 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[+][deleted] 14 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]TimesWasting 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[+][deleted] 14 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]TimesWasting 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[+][deleted] 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]TimesWasting 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]zaferk -3 points-2 points-1 points 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[+][deleted] 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points0 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]The_Patriarchy 3 points4 points5 points 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]CremasterGuy 4 points5 points6 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]banished_one 3 points4 points5 points 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]DeepFriedChildren 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Liverotto -1 points0 points1 point 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+][deleted] 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[+][deleted] 14 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]Alanna 3 points4 points5 points 14 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Considering the US has the world's highest incarceration rate, it's often harder than you think to "not end up there in the first place." False accusations, false convictions, and mistaken identity happens all the time. And especially if you're a minority, and male, you don't always have to dumb and/or evil to end up in jail-- just monstrously unlucky.

There is a valid middle ground between the rape-crazy concrete jungle and "club med." The part of the article this woman gets right is talking about how there is a social acceptance-- even approval-- of prison rape. At best, the attitude is similar to yours-- don't end up in prison and you won't get raped-- but many see rape as part of the punishment.

The bottom line is, if you believe in basic human rights, no one deserves to be raped-- even rapists and murderers. There's a reason we don't let victims mete out punishment directly to convicted criminals.

[+][deleted] 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]Alanna 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Title	Is the US the only country where more men are raped than women? (x-post for TrueReddit)
Author	MaybeImWrong
Upvotes	141
Comments	90
Date	February 23, 2012 2:45 PM UTC (14 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/q2it1/is_the_us_the_only_country_where_more_men_are/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/is-the-us-the-only-country-where-more-men-are.1027178 https://theredarchive.com/post/1027178

Comments