My Problem is this...

saint2e · 2013-08-13T16:35:56+00:00

"True feminism incorporates the voices of all people, including men who feel they have no voice, who have been oppressed and who have been marginalized."

Excellent. When you're able to achieve that, get back to us. Until then we'll still be disenfranchised with feminism as Men's Rights are constantly shouted down and marginalized.

We'll still be disenfranchised when feminist groups lobby for special privileges which take away rights of men.

We'll still be disenfranchised when feminist groups demonized the male population and coin phrases like "Toxic Masculinity" and "Schroedinger's Rapist".

We'll still be disenfranchised when feminist authors tell us how to behave as men, and what to do with our genitalia.

We'll especially be disenfranchised when feminists show up to picket Men's Rights events which aim to help men better their lives, and try and stop the event from occurring by blocking doors, pulling the fire alarm, and then have the audacity to chant "This is what Men's Rights looks like".

People under the banner of feminism have been slapping the male population around for years, don't expect us to suck it up or "Man Up" because of what you think feminism is. Take a look around and see what it is in practice.

2013-08-13T17:11:41+00:00

Seriously, how arrogant does someone like you have to be to come in here and tell us that the only reason we don't agree with your ideology is because we're ignorant about it.

That is the sort of thing one close-minded person says to another because they want to ignore their critics views. It is not the statement of an honest person looking for a dialogue. Honest people who want to have a discussion don't go into that discussion with the assumption that the people they're trying to talk to are that stupid. We know what feminism is -- we see it's influence on the government and society every day. The reason we don't give your definition much credit is because it doesn't match up with the real feminism we see in our every days lives. And that is the real feminism.

The feminism you know exists only on paper.

Frankly_No · 2013-08-13T17:26:27+00:00

Have you seen the U of T protest videos?

The only coverage it got on any major feminist blog was Jezebel who blamed the harassment Big Red got on us (it was all done by 4chan) and going on about how this is what happens to a "woman with an opinion". They claimed she was provoked and constantly interrupted, when any objective viewer can see she came in unsolicited and started screaming at MRAs when she noticed cameras on her.

This is the only feminism that's relevant to us, and it's the only feminism that will ever be relevant until all the supposed egalitarian feminists that claim to be out there come out of hiding and make an actual impact in the activism over the gender feminists.

And what's even less helpful is the egalitarian feminists coming out of hiding to berate us for not putting up with the gender feminists' shit.

Aaod · 2013-08-13T18:22:16+00:00

We get weekly posts about this topic to the point I am going to start a reference post asking for others contributions to help so that we can just copy/paste the answers. For reference your post is a mixture of a tone argument and a no true Scotsman fallacy mixed in with not all feminists are like that.

If you wanted to actually have a dialogue, and for people to understand and be apart of "Men's Rights", why do you insist on shitting on feminists..

Because feminists have continually shit on us in the past and are still currently doing so which I will touch on later. After this you get into the standard tone argument which we have heard many times before. Why are you angry you ask? Check out the sidebar or other posts men have a massive amount of issues and are ignored and belittled by society and especially feminists whenever they bring them up. When someone feels like they have no voice and are continually belittled for voicing their opinion they become angry this combined with how we have been treated by feminists and many of our members having terrible experiences with women usually in the cases of divorce leads to the current anger levels.

True feminism incorporates the voices of all people, including men who feel they have no voice, who have been oppressed and who have been marginalized.

Is that why recently gay men were told they were more privileged than women? Is that why we are told to stay out of womens “safe spaces”? Why we are continually told to sit down shut the fuck up and that feminists are handling it? Face it feminism shuts down the voices of men hard and many of us have experienced this ourselves. We brought up the issues men face and were at best insulted for it to quote a posterboard of one feminist “sorry about your man feels.”

Feminists are not monsters trying to kill off men, and I hate that idea here...we aren't the ones doctoring statistics, or shutting you down...

Yes you are. Doctoring statistics? The wage gap is a myth that has been disproved multiple times, the domestic violence rates are mostly even, the rape statistics feminists cite are made up, and feminists have done things such as taking a survey on domestic violence.... at a domestic violence shelter! Instead of in the general population to try and prove how prevalent domestic violence is.

Shutting us down. You mean like protesting when we have speakers? Pulling the fire alarm? Pulling down posters whenever we use them to voice our opinion? Or continually working against us in the courtroom? Recently the national organization for women forced the governor of Florida to veto a shared custody agreement you know something that means it would have been equal.

Face it feminists have worked against us from the very beginning and spit in our face. Now you blame us for being angry or for telling people that they spit in our face. You say no feminist is like X and we say wrong based on how your leaders and organization have treated and worked against us not to mention how we have been treated by feminists. It might surprise you but a rather large number of us are ex feminists hell one of the closest things we have to a leader used to serve on the board of the national organization for women before he questioned things and was basically excommunicated. Look over the past couple pages of posts on this forum and check the sidebar or the reference section and you will see why we are angry.

edit: Another thing to keep in mind is the early mens groups tried working with feminists early on and lets just say they were turned away harshly that is the most polite way of putting it.

KRosen333 · 2013-08-13T16:47:58+00:00

That doesn't prove your point, and the majority of attacks on Feminism in this subreddit seem to be severely misinformed as to what Feminism or most of feminism actually is.

Please expand on this. What is feminism then?

People become informed when you make information accessible, not when you attack a subgroup of people before even making your point. You've just shut off half of your audience.

Please answer the above question, so we can see who is informed and who is not.

People become informed when you make information accessible, not when you attack a subgroup of people before even making your point. You've just shut off half of your audience.

Feminists are not half of our audience.
The Jews did not much care to change themselves to better include the nazi party.

The problem with men's rights doesn't begin with feminism, it begins with the larger constructs of society. You should be allies with us and I apologize for feminists that don't include your voice, but that isn't all of us.

You mean patriarchy?

That is all....let the down-votes begin.

You are a silly man.

So let's get this out there right now - you are overly hostile with this post. So lets see if we can't shape this up.

You obviously acknowledge that we do not accept feminism. But you have not bothered to address why.

And this is why we are going to have trouble taking anything you say seriously. You come to a conclusion about us, but do not bother to ask why we are at this point. So go ahead - please answer my questions above, and then try to figure out why we are at this point.

And please only answer in your own words - linking me to the wikipedia article on patriarchy or the dictionary.com definition of feminism really doesn't mean anything to me :) thanks and I hope to hear from you again soon. (ps we get about 2 posts like this a week, most people are tired of repeating themselves at this point - you really should have looked around.)

RBGolbat · 2013-08-13T16:33:28+00:00

It's not so much feminists that we dislike. It's this large and growing internet brand of Feminism that seems to have superiority as it's final goal rather than equality. I agree, in an ideal world, Feminism and Men's Rights would both be different side of the same coin, but at this point it simply just isn't, and the cooler heads in the Feminist movement are being drowned out by the more radical voices.

JCurry2 · 2013-08-13T17:33:03+00:00

"but that isn't all of us." I feel the same way about this subreddit. I don't like the anti-feminism stuff unless it fits a narrative that is useful for mensrights. I'm not anti-feminism in any way whatsoever and I feel there are a lot of us here. I just find this subreddit useful to making me look at things from multiple sides.

EdgarFrogandSam · 2013-08-13T17:57:34+00:00

why do you insist on shitting on feminists

I wonder this, too. I think part of it might be the sheer number of guys here who have been banned from /r/Feminism for trying to engage in dialogue.

Now that hasn't pushed me to bash feminists as I still consider myself one. But I can't post there anymore because they refuse to review the ban.

2013-08-13T18:09:01+00:00

"Listen, I am a MRA...

Before you yell, ask me, what kind of MRA?

Well I'll tell you: I am sex positive and inclusive...

So what I don't understand about /r/Feminism is this simple thing:

If you wanted to actually have a dialogue, and for people to understand and be apart of "Feminism", why do you insist on shitting on men....

That doesn't prove your point, and the majority of attacks on men in this subreddit seem to be severely misinformed as to what masculinity or most of MRA actually is.

People become informed when you make information accessible, not when you attack a subgroup of people before even making your point. You've just shut off half of your audience.

The problem with women's rights doesn't begin with the concept of masculinity, it begins with the larger constructs of society. You should be allies with us and I apologize for men that don't include your voice, but that isn't all of us.

True MRA incorporates the voices of all people, including women who feel they have no voice, who have been oppressed and who have been marginalized. MRA are not monsters trying to kill off women, and I hate that idea here...we aren't the ones doctoring statistics, or shutting you down...so stop blaming ALL MRA and MEN. The problem is SOCIETAL...meaning regardless of gender, male or female, humans fuck each other over.

SO PLEASE, FOR THE LOVE OF HASTUR, change your rhetoric. Try address your issues with out blaming everyone else. You aren't helping your case, you're hurting it. You can't divide people to prove a point, you can just make a good point as to why men's rights has a right to a voice. And why it is important....

That is all....let the down-votes begin."

I'm worried how I ended defending the concept of patriarchy indirectly! PS : Not a MRA.

levelate · 2013-08-13T16:59:47+00:00

so, essentially we just need more feminism, and not all feminists are like that, and some are even not real feminists.

gotcha.

don't let the door hit your arse on the way out.

theoryis · 2013-08-13T17:08:17+00:00

There is no dialogue to be had. All you people do is insult us. You literally make up stories about what terrible people we are, then you wall yourselves off inside of your own blogs and subreddits -- where you refuse to ever allow a contradictory word to be said -- and spew those lies to each other until you actually believe them.

Fuck you and your tone policing. If YOU were serious about having a dialogue, you would be in the feminist subs saying this to your fellow feminists. But you're not interested in a dialogue. You're here actively looking for an excuse to ignore us.

avantvernacular · 2013-08-13T17:32:00+00:00

Every single day we have someone come here and say "That's not feminism this is!" and every day it's something different. Who is right? You, or the person who posted yesterday, or the day before that, or last week or last month? Which one is the true arbiter of what feminism is and is not? They all call themselves feminists, how can it be know which is true and is not, with each claiming the title?

The problem with men's rights doesn't begin with feminism, it begins with the larger constructs of society.

You're right it does not begin with feminism. It may be permitted, or perpetuated, or reinforced by those who would call themselves feminists, but yes its origins are much older.

After all, NOW may not have started the tradition that assumed a woman to be the primary care giver, but they did lobby to prevent the law that would assume each parent initially equal. They also did not conceive of the initial assumption that men were abusive, but they did lobby for the laws that forces police to arrest them in any domestic dispute. The feminists of the UK did not invent the idea of forcing men to fight in wars, but they did lobby to write a nationalized involuntary conscription into law for men, and launched the White Feather Campaign to harass and shame them into enlisting. So yes, feminists did not start these problems, but they certainly have made an effort to keep them alive.

Now you may say those are not true feminists, but they have said they were. You may say that feminists are allies of men, but we have seen so much evidence to the contrary, and the rhetoric of feminism may claim to care for men, but the actions speak so much louder, and the laws even more so.

It would seem that feminism's claim that they help men is even more misinformed than you claims this subreddit's view of feminism is. Unless of course none of those are true feminists, but then why do they say they are?

So show us where they help men, that they care for men. Show us where they fight for equality when it benefits men. Show us where the feminist lobbies and organizations push through the laws that assume men are just as capable fathers and make joint custody the initial default. Show us where they are concerned with men's plummeting attendance in college and fund men only scholarship. Show use where they believe a man's life to be just as valuable as a woman's, and require Selective Service enrollment to include women. Show us where they are alarmed by the way homelessness and suicide overwhelmingly affect men, and push for shelters and resources for men. Show us how they react to the way violent crimes overwhelmingly affect men, and lobby for a Violence Against Men Act. Show us they money they spend on these things, the politicians they lobby for these things, the laws they pass for these things.

Show me the actions of your true feminists that have accomplished all these things. Show me how they help men, how they undo the damage those "other" feminists have done, and I will recant every bad I have ever said or even hinted at about feminism and gladly call myself one.

I will be here waiting till then.

cri_nge · 2013-08-13T17:33:04+00:00

http://www.avoiceformen.com/feminism/not-all-feminists-are-like-that-3/

Read this and you'll understand why we're disgruntled with feminism.

Alzael · 2013-08-13T19:04:33+00:00

That doesn't prove your point, and the majority of attacks on Feminism in this subreddit seem to be severely misinformed as to what Feminism or most of feminism actually is.

No True Scotsman.

You should be allies with us and I apologize for feminists that don't include your voice, but that isn't all of us.

You can't apologize for what you did not do, and the people you are apologizing for are not sorry. So this is doubly pointless. You're just saying it personal "feel-good" points.

True feminism incorporates the voices of all people, including men who feel they have no voice, who have been oppressed and who have been marginalized.

Again, No True Scotsman.

so stop blaming ALL FEMINISTS

Compositional fallacy.

The problem is SOCIETAL...meaning regardless of gender, male or female, humans fuck each other over.

Assertion with no evidence.

Try address your issues with out blaming everyone else. You aren't helping your case, you're hurting it. You can't divide people to prove a point, you can just make a good point as to why men's rights has a right to a voice. And why it is important....

Mindless, ignorant rant.

So, in other words, nothing new, insigtful, or interesting.

2013-08-13T20:37:38+00:00

I tried, before I became truly active here. I asked questions so I could understand, and I got banned for it.

So no. You and your ilk can fuck off and stop telling us what to do because you and yours have absolutely NO interest in genuine open dialogue, let alone daring to question what you believe.

5th_Law_of_Robotics · 2013-08-14T03:59:25+00:00

Could you find one feminist forum open to discussion?

rightsbot · 2013-08-13T16:32:17+00:00

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KRosen333 · 2013-08-13T17:21:18+00:00

LOL! In a sub that is against SRS (I go there when I need a boost to get through my day) this is on top:

http://i.imgur.com/5GsIGUA.png?1

Lol. This kind of stuff is why feminism and MR aren't going to be able to reconcile any time soon.

02382 · 2013-08-13T17:48:06+00:00

Take a number: http://breakingtheglasses.blogspot.com/2013/01/for-record.html

http://www.the-spearhead.com/2011/12/27/feminist-concerns-with-male-self-evaluation-or-brothers-gonna-work-it-out/

Feminism is touting itself as being the gatekeeper of gender re-examination for both sexes and quite a bit of evidence demonstrates that there is a significant opposition against men taking the same steps toward rediscovery that women did — especially without feminist supervision.

http://www.genderratic.com/p/1686/gynocentrism-when-feminists-engage-mens-issues/#comment-9243

Why bother looking at men’s issues from any other perspective when we already know the ’right’ one–the one that throws around terms like ”male privilege,” ”patriarchy,” and ”rape culture” as proven facts that are essential to having any sort of meaningful conversation? What man could possibly have an objection to such a fair-minded starting point? Only one who’s feeling his privilege threatened, of course….

http://www.genderratic.com/p/1686/gynocentrism-when-feminists-engage-mens-issues/#comment-9211

And yet whenever someone tries to talk critically about ’feminism’, they either 1) rush to crack-open the nearest dictionary and insist that the printed definition of ’feminism’ in there is immutable and eternally true or 2) claim that feminism isn’t a monolithic whole and every feminist has her own definition of what it means to her, so feminism cannot be treated as if it’s one single thing. (But praising it as a single entity is totally cool and fine, though, yabetcha.) Sometimes the same person will haul-out both tactics within minutes of each other.

https://toysoldier.wordpress.com/2013/07/29/how-not-to-have-a-discussion-or-how-to-have-a-feminist-discussion/

I’ve seen this one a few times. When things get ugly call for empathy, while showing none in return. I’ve been trying to talk to you with the utmost respect (for your views even if they different) and frankly in return you’ve mostly been repeating that I’m wrong because I’m not feminist.

I’ve tried the empathy path before with feminists and I learned the hard way that it doesn’t pay.

This is now just a stand off and we are getting nowhere.

guywithaccount · 2013-08-13T19:52:55+00:00

Downvoting OP for concern trolling, NAFALT, and general cluelessness.

PowerWisdomCourage · 2013-08-13T16:32:43+00:00

And reported.

Title	My Problem is this...
Author	theoryis
Upvotes	0
Comments	60
Date	August 13, 2013 4:30 PM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1kab6b/my_problem_is_this/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/my-problem-is-this.1166492 https://theredarchive.com/post/1166492

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