New mra's that think constructive debate with feminism is possible, feminism is a polemic, its not designed for compromise and debate, thats why it has never happened in the history of this gender deb

TheSacredParsnip · 2013-04-08T16:02:12+00:00

I'm not that new to the movement and I do think some feminists are open to constructive debate. Not all, or even most, but some.

farkfa · 2013-04-08T15:50:04+00:00

A polemic (pron.: /pəˈlɛmɪk/) is a contentious argument that is intended to establish the truth of a specific belief and the falsity of the contrary belief.

I don't think ideological feminism qualifies as a polemic. If feminist arguments were actually about truth and falsehood, then there would be something legitimate to debate.

Feminism is more like Orwellian propaganda:

It connotes an attitude and a policy of control by propaganda, surveillance, misinformation, denial of truth, and manipulation of the past, including the "unperson" — a person whose past existence is expunged from the public record and memory, practiced by modern repressive governments.

Who is the unperson? The disadvantaged man, the oppressed man, the victim man. These men are erased from the feminist narrative.

Feminism may also be thought control:

Mind control (also known as brainwashing, coercive persuasion, mind abuse, menticide, thought control, or thought reform) refers to a process in which a group or individual "systematically uses unethically manipulative methods to persuade others to conform to the wishes of the manipulator(s), often to the detriment of the person being manipulated".

The difference between polemic and thought control is that the former claims the contrary belief is false, while the thought control claims the contrary belief must not be spoken.

Nomenimion · 2013-04-08T17:18:29+00:00

This brings to mind the ships of Theseus. Feminism has persisted and probably will persist for quite a while, but its members are constantly changing. If we keep talking to individual feminists and change their minds in our favor even in the smallest way, over time we could shape the movement into something not quite so hostile to men.

Mr_Rivers · 2013-04-08T16:11:00+00:00

I don't think anyone blames the men's movement for the characteristics of feminism.

This 'feminism' isn't actually a sentient thing. It is made up of many smaller things called 'people' and constructive debate is how you get these 'people' to change their minds.

Nomenimion · 2013-04-08T17:26:24+00:00

A lot of experienced MRAs still think there is a point to reaching out to feminists, also--sadly enough. It never works. They aren't interested in honest discussion.

I really feel that the goal needs to be to reach out to the people who already care about the same things that MRAs do, not to argue with those who will never agree. You either care about justice or you don't.

hexcloak · 2013-04-08T18:18:31+00:00

Look, I've taken a number of feminist philosophy classes, and the work of feminist epistemology has formed the foundation of other work I've done in the philosophy of technology and culture.

Feminism is, in and of itself, entirely open to debate and discussion. There are feminists who will openly discuss the issues. As with any movement, there are people who use ideology to disguise bitterness, intolerance and hatred.

Whether or not you feel the way I do, why descend to their level? Be open to peaceful and intelligent debate and discussion. Focus on fighting for the interests of the boys and men who need you, not in pleasurable outrage at every insipid feminist facebook post.

Be better. If not for yourself, then for the future generations of men who are in danger of being forgotten.

CrossHook · 2013-04-08T16:37:50+00:00

Talking to an internet feminist about the feminist movement discriminating against men is like talking to a soldier about the war their government is waging.

It is utterly worthless. Their opinion is worth jack shit.

2013-04-08T22:46:12+00:00

If this isn't your reaction to the idea of having a constructive debate with feminists:

http://i.imgur.com/bmdvLfn.gif

You're delusional.

This is what a debate with a feminist looks like:

http://i.imgur.com/bjOmokN.gif

determinot · 2013-04-08T22:41:31+00:00

Sigil1, your title is too terse for me. Can you expand on it a touch?

I admit, polemic is a new word for me, but I am intrigued with my tentative understanding. Wikipedia makes the distinction between a polemic and a debate, in that a polemic's existence is to not only argue its case, but also to squash the opposition. That is, it is an argument promoting itself, and separately an argument against its "adversaries". The argument against its adversaries may not necessarily be related to the argument promoting itself. It just must stop the opposition, regardless of whether that is promoting its own argument.

Feminism is not only a movement promoting womens interest, but it also seeks to undermine other groups, ie MRAs. Though the goals of MRAs may not necessarily counter those of feminism, feminism since it is a polemic has a hostility to MRAs.

Indeed, this is what we see. Men coming together to discuss, say male suicide rates. Shouldn't hurt feminism. But, feminism is a polemic, and attacks the men.

Damn good word of the day!

Edit: I need you to expand on "Stop blaming the mens movement for the characteristics of feminism". I don't understand what you're saying.

stopsayingfaggot · 2013-04-08T23:44:57+00:00

I think there's a misconception here that constructive debate necessarily means that both sides have to be polite, or that compromise or agreement are likely or even possible (I personally suffer no delusion that I'll convert any of you). I'm a feminist and I've had a number of debates on this subreddit that I'd consider to have been constructive, at least on my end. However heated and antagonistic they may have been, and however much I doubt that minds were changed to any significant degree on either side, those debates helped me to think more carefully about my arguments, to consider more evidence, and even to acquaint myself better with the feminist scholarship on the specific matters at hand. Thanks to those arguments, I've now read and cited a number of feminist writings (not just blog posts or news editorials, but actual journal articles and book chapters), much of which has taught me a great deal, and even reaffirmed my belief that feminism is the better approach to addressing gender inequality. And as loath as I am to admit it, I've even come to a better appreciation for the MRA point of view as well, and can grudgingly see some merit to a few of your positions. So those debates have certainly been helpful to me in expanding my worldview, regardless of how much they've just irritated or annoyed a number of you. (And if you all don't like me as a result, that's really your problem, not mine.)

And while the health of your movement isn't really my concern, I'm egotistical enough to hope that my presence here has been a small help to you as well. Circlejerks are nothing but useless cesspits of epistemic closure, as MRAs often love to argue about the feminist movement. By injecting even a modicum of accuracy to the lazy caricatures of feminist arguments that abound in this place, I like to pretend that a few of you have actually absorbed something interesting and useful about what feminists actually say and believe in. And by calling out your movement for your embarrassing dearth of accomplishments that don't consist of complaints against feminists, it's my extremely naive hope that a few of you might be moved to actually do something real to address men's issues. However stupid or unsubstantiated you think feminism might be, our movement has the size and momentum that comes from over a century of global scholarship and activism. Realistically, even from an anti-feminist point of view, feminism is a massive, multi-headed ever-changing dragon that your current methods and rhetoric have no real hope of slaying, certainly not in the short term. I would honestly love to see MRAs redirect all of that wasted energy complaining about what feminists haven't done for men, and instead put it to use actually taking up that slack. To take my favorite example, if you think feminists have ignored or concealed male rape, then by god campaign to increase awareness of the issue (and I don't mean rant on reddit, I mean campaign in the real world). Do actual research on the nature, scope, and causes of male rape, pioneer your own research methodologies if you're convinced that feminist-recommended ones are invalid, develop actual strategies to prevent male rape or address the needs of male rape victims, and start or promote foundations and organizations that actually implement those strategies or address those needs. Will feminists fight you if you try? Maybe; feminists and MRAs have fundamentally contradictory ideas about what gender equality meaningfully entails, and balance competing male and female interests in different ways. But don't just whine that feminists won't let you do those things - even if true it's still a self-defeating copout, and anyway you only say it to score ideological points against feminists, not to actually get them to relent and give you permission. As has been pointed out recently, for the most part feminists actually do want to see men's issues addressed, even though that isn't where their priorities lie. And personally, it's my admittedly immature hope that if you get off your asses and actually establish shelters for homeless or abused men, or raise funds for medical research into men's health issues, or boycott companies that have anti-male advertising or employment policies, not only will you succeed in helping men in meaningful ways, you'll finally learn how easy it is for your ideological opponents to to find fault in all your efforts to make the world a better place, while all they do is rant from the sidelines.

If you want to dismiss this all as a nasty, concern-trolling rant that's offered in bad faith, be my guest. You'd even have some justification for the claim. But bear in mind that by carrying on exactly as you are, to my mind you'll just be proving my point.

TheFarnell · 2013-04-09T02:55:19+00:00

Relevant

rodvanmechelen · 2013-04-09T05:17:58+00:00

Constructive debate with feminists is not possible. The last of these occurred in the mid-1990s. Feminists were getting trounced by MRAs on tv and radio talk shows, so they began refusing to engage, and soon thereafter Jerry Springer type shows began taking over. In other venues, they began shouting us down, as demonstrated by the UofT videos. A few minutes ago I posted the link to the Feminism: With and Without the Mask video, which has two themes: feminism is a hate movement (I'm now calling it the HATEriarchy), and men need to confront this en masse with compassion.

Compassion will not work any better than trying to engage in constructive debate. These people are led by narcissists and psychopaths. There is no reasoning with them.

If we confront them with their own tactics, we will be instantly branded as terrorists and likely end up in prison. When pressed to fight the weakest men are far more fearsome than the average woman. In a real war between the sexes, men would win. As Warren Farrell wrote years ago, the gender war is a war in which only one sex has shown up.

The USA is leading other countries--including Canada--into a global totalitarian state. There are a lot of very smart people with diverse opinions about how that will proceed and how long it will endure. I have no opinion about whose opinion is most accurate. But it seems clear to me that feminism is what the global elite want, right now, because it serves to distract the rest of us and weaken the majority of men.

In Star Wars the Jedi Knights had technologies identical to the evil empire and resources that were far less lop sided than the situation in which we find ourselves today. So we don't really have the resources to fight back. About feminism, PJ O'Rourke said, "they've got us surrounded, we have no choice but to drink our way out!" Humorous, but perhaps not all that wrong.

Most of the financial gurus I follow say everybody in the anglosphere of influence needs to get themselves a passport from the country in which they are currently a citizen, and then to establish residence in another country and get a second passport ASAP, because the western hemisphere is about to be plunged into a historic crash of the US dollar and social unrest that will make Greece and Cyprus look mild.

All of them suggest looking to the southern hemisphere. Maybe this is what men need to do, too. Take this as our cue that it's Atlas Shrugged time, and begin moving by the tens of millions out of the northern hemisphere.

2013-04-09T11:20:25+00:00

I seriously doubt that 90% of what passes for "men's right activism" is not counter-productive. Asking nicely and crying over one's feelings are not known to be effective.

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