~ archived since 2018 ~

SRS in real life

robert32907

March 17, 2013

21 upvotes

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Post Information

Title	SRS in real life
Author	robert32907
Upvotes	21
Comments	98
Date	March 17, 2013 8:23 PM UTC (13 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/mensrights/comments/1ahch0/srs-in-real-life/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/srs-in-real-life.1608406 https://theredarchive.com/post/1608406

Comments

[–]AnnArchist17 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]cronus857 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]thadjohnson2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Agreed! I have had two wonderful transmen friends who decided to stop being my friend when I started treating them like actual men and called them on their gender-feminist bullshit by merely disagreeing. Am I hurt? Yes! Do I now disrespect them? No! Are their ideas demonstrably wrong? 99% yes! Are they underserving of being treated like men? No! They have spent years and thousands of dollars to live like men, and god damnit, it's a learning process. So I forgive them, like I'd forgive a hormonal teenage boy for moronic behavior.

Now, when some angry college-aged gender-feminist lesbian top temporarily decides her name is Tim and she is a man for a month or so ... I take that with a grain of salt. ESPECIALLY when she marries a man a year later and has three kids with him as time progresses.

But you play the game, and that game is calling people what they want to be called. It's polite and understanding, and it's generous in a way these awful gender-feminists deny us. Simply put, we are better people.

[–]ExpendableOne1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Why exactly does that choice have to be treated with respect? Because they say so? Someone with a psychological issue, or a personal delusion, shouldn't have that delusion encouraged; least of all have their delusions "respected". If a schizophrenic thought himself to be the president, should we then treat him like the president and put him the the white house? If a deranged individual literally thought himself to be a tiger, should we treat that person as a tiger and respect their thought process or condone the behavior they exhibit as a "tiger"? That person's delusions do not inherently demand respect, simply for existing. Not only because they are delusions, and contradict reality in every sense of the word, but because those people need help rather than having those fantasies reinforced(especially when that fantasy is entirely rooted in sexism, misinformation and/or resentment for one gender over the other).

The mind is fallible. It is not all knowing and someone who believes themselves to be something, regardless of how convinced they may be, does not make it so. Catering to those kinds of personal delusions out of political correctness does not help anyone. Male and female are a genetic and biological reality/fact, and psychological conditions should not be confused with physical conditions(there are genuine genetic deformities and anomalies that are a completely different matter entirely). In the cases of men who believe themselves to be women(or vice-versa), the mind is at fault and we should not just dismiss the body because of the will that governs it. It may be their right to do whatever they wish to their bodies, and undergo whatever surgeries they wish to undertake to shape their bodies to match their fantasy, but that doesn't mean that the rest of the world needs to match that predisposition or that the rest of the world needs to treat that psychological illness as anything other than a psychological illness.

[–]cronus851 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]ExpendableOne-1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]cronus851 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]ExpendableOne1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

That isn't an illogical extreme, it's an analogy used to serve a purpose. An analogy which is used to highlight how ridiculous it would be to just deny reality and simply embrace other people's personal delusions(and, compared to people believing of themselves to be of the opposite sex, and the level of acceptance that is expected from the rest of society on this matter, it really isn't that extreme of a comparison). The analogy also relates to the matter at hand, and the fact that you would consider that extreme, or as unacceptable, but that you would consider people wishing to be supported in their gender identity disorder(and in all the ways in which gender affects us in our current social environment), perfectly demonstrates the irrationality in your argument and how it is not only unrealistic but harmful even. You are embracing a double-standard, and glorying a pretty serious psychological disorder, simply out of wishful thinking and political correctness.

[–]cronus851 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]robert329073 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I identify as your dad. Therefore you have to invite me over for holidays and take care of me in my old age. If you refuse to do so, you are being disrespectful.

I identify as the Emperor of the Solar System. Therefore you have to bow to me when I walk down the street. If you refuse to do so, you are being disrespectful.

I identify as a tree. Therefore you have to water my legs when you see me. If you refuse to do so, you are being disrespectful.

Look, once upon a time, when someone ranted and raved in the street that they were somebody who they clearly were not, we considered them mentally ill and pitied them and gave them psychiatric treatment. But for some reason now we are supposed to, as a society, pretend that their delusions have some basis in reality, all so that their feelings don't get hurt?

Get me off this fucking planet.

[–]Grapeban7 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Interesting that all the comparisons you used involved you having to do something difficult/embarrassing to accomodate that person. So basically you're making a false comparison to make it seem like accepting someone's gender identity is a hassle.

Furthermore, its accepted medically that gender is a separate construct to sex, that it is possible for your gender and sex to contradict each other (gender dysphoria) and that gender transition is basically the only effective treatment for gender dysphoria.

But please, continue to stand in the face of the medical community (because you know so much better) and to contribute to a society which discriminates fiercly against trans people and to do things that are the reason why trans people are one of the most at risk groups in society of commiting suicide.

Continue to do all these things even though doing the opposite would cost you almost nothing in terms of energy and would only increase the quality of life of others.

(by the way

we considered them mentally ill and pitied them and gave them psychiatric treatment

this is exactly what happens with trans people, it just so happens that the "psychiatric treatment" is a gender transition").

[–]robert329071 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Grapeban-1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

If you have the XY pair of chromosomes and were born with a dick, then you are a man.

Have you had your chromosomes tested? If not, how do you know that you have XY chromosomes? (I'm assuming your sex is male and that you identify as male Robert).

I don't worry too much about the feelings of the insane, to be completely honest.

Why not? Do you worry about anyone's feelings? If so, why do you worry about their's and not the insane? What about the insane precludes them from recieving your empathy and sympathy? And how is that any more reasonable than not caring about someone 'cause they're black, or male?

And I'm not going to deny reality just so that some lunatic doesn't get butthurt and swallow a bunch of pills.

Yet you are willing to deny a reality that almost all medical groups in country's recognise, from liberal Sweden to ultra-conservative Iran. Hmm, how interesting.

And considering that part of the responsibility of the state is to care for the vulnerable, how do you suggest we help those who have gender dysphoria if not help them transition gender? Or do we just leave them to the wind? If so, would you do that for all other conditions?

And if you don't like it, then you can go fuck yourself.

Tell me again, what's the harm of you recognising someone's gender identity?

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[–]cronus852 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Actually there are numerous ways to change your DNA; and on the cellular level you are not the same person you were 10 years ago. None of us are who we were.

I am curious as to your first point though, whose authority supersedes my right to live how I choose? Think on this:

That the only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others. His own good, either physical or moral, is not a sufficient warrant. He cannot rightfully be compelled to do or forbear because it will be better for him to do so, because it will make him happier, because, in the opinions of others, to do so would be wise, or even right. These are good reasons for remonstrating with him, or reasoning with him, or persuading him, or entreating him, but not for compelling him, or visiting him with any evil in case he do otherwise. To justify that, the conduct from which it is desired to deter him, must be calculated to produce evil to some one else. The only part of the conduct of any one, for which he is amenable to society, is that which concerns others. In the part which merely concerns himself, his independence is, of right, absolute. Over himself, over his own body and mind, the individual is sovereign.

John Stuart Mill, On Liberty, Chapter One, Introduction

[–]ExpendableOne0 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

People don't get to define their identity. They are what they are. If I was a short person, I couldn't just go around the world expecting people to treat me as though I was 6'5". I shouldn't go around the world expecting people to forgo safety regulations, when it relates to height, because it hurts my feelings. People are what they are, and wishful thinking and psychological delusions, from people who are already clearly in need of psychological help, are not enough to ignore that basic fact. I'm a human being, I'm white and I'm male. Nothing could or would ever change that regardless of my mental state. If I had grown into a different world, and had grown up to hate myself for my gender(even if purely subconsciously) and wanted to identify as a woman(or, more specifically, a stereotype of a woman), that still wouldn't make it so. If I was born in an environment where I grew up believing myself to be a wolf, that still wouldn't make me a wolf; nor would/should people be "respecting" my delusional/biased perspective of reality either. Enabling these people in their own personal fantasies is not helping them, or helping the issue. Stopping or impeding any kind of process to help these people is not helping those people or the issue. Shaming people into catering to this particular delusion is not helpful to those people or the issue. Nothing is good or ethical about enabling individuals in their own self-destructing and self-hating fantasies.

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